Are fairness and honesty detrimental to us regarding employment and life

[Gerald Wilgus]

I am not saying that truly being an ethical, moral person 100% of the time will condemn you to failure in life,...but it often does in today's world.

So, I'm thinking of the most ethical public personage, Bernie Sanders, who continues to change public discourse, and is clawing little by little to move universal healthcare for all Americans, foreward. For this, both political parties marginalize him. I wish the feckless Dems would learn to fight like he does.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

My wife has been fired from jobs because of her honesty and not doing political stuff. Over the years she has talked to me about situations at work and how to handle them. She is much better about office politics.

Number one rule I tell her.... NO one at work is your friend. Do not think because you have a cozy relationship with them you can open up and confide in them. It takes years and time to build friendships.

The only way I figured out to advance was to start training somebody to do my job and I'd get more responsibility, though I didn't care for the authority. I was able to do that twice and I got two things out of that; I left a trail of trained people in my wake, I gained influence, which is better than any authority. I liked the soft power of influence better than the hard power of authority.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

The only way I figured out to advance was to start training somebody to do my job and I'd get more responsibility, though I didn't care for the authority. I was able to do that twice and I got two things out of that; I left a trail of trained people in my wake, I gained influence, which is better than any authority. I liked the soft power of influence better than the hard power of authority.

The only good use of power is not needing to use it. Same goes for authority.

I "comand" a small group of people and I try hard to use my possition to help them and others.

If good people refuse taking authority possitions other less good people will do it, and when that happens many workers and their familys get affected.

Toxics bosses have a very negative impact on the working space. Those stressed and bullied workers then go to their homes and their familys get the poison they carry...

We really need good people taking leadership possitions.

 

[StrayCat]

I feel like I need to evolve into a dishonest person with a more “cutthroat” style to make it in life, or at least tread water and survive with lodgings.

I think what you are looking for is solid dose of hypocrisy? With little bit of grandiose narcissism thrown in?

 

[Darkkin]

I don't talk a lot, (IRL because it seems like I never shut up on the internet.) but when I do say something people listen.

 

[Fino]

It may not often be lying, but it's important to dress everything up and present it in a way they find pleasing.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

The only good use of power is not needing to use it. Same goes for authority.

I "comand" a small group of people and I try hard to use my possition to help them and others.

If good people refuse taking authority possitions other less good people will do it, and when that happens many workers and their familys get affected.

Toxics bosses have a very negative impact on the working space. Those stressed and bullied workers then go to their homes and their familys get the poison they carry...

We really need good people taking leadership possitions.

So very true. When I was in a supervisory position I would feel responsible to advocate for my reports with management. My greatest appreciation was to get notes out of the blue when I retired from people thanking me for teaching them properly.

 

[The Lorax]

The only way I figured out to advance was to start training somebody to do my job and I'd get more responsibility, though I didn't care for the authority. I was able to do that twice and I got two things out of that; I left a trail of trained people in my wake, I gained influence, which is better than any authority. I liked the soft power of influence better than the hard power of authority.

My wife has accepted finally she can't advance further than she is. She is senior in her field and at work they use her as the expert. But she doesn't like managing people and she is not good dealing with higher ups. She is a good manager for her employees when she was. As a manager you look to make the job of the employee easier and protect them. Everyone liked her when she was a manager, except those above her when she called out their male cow feces.

 

[Raggamuffin]

I struggle with work as they try and make as much money as possible from customers, whereas I try and save them money where possible.

Had procedures that had to be adhered to for the past 2.5 years, and this week my manager told me to waive a load of them, as we "need to make more money". Seems completely immoral, and it's also outside of the contract the customer has with us, so I'd question whether or not it's legal.

Plus the customer's are too big for any workshop to handle the workload we put upon them. With one customer we have changed workshops 4 times, and with the other it's now 6. In fact, upper management sent a scathing email to one workshop today and they've now refused to do further work for us.

This company is literally burning bridges by overworking staff, as well as third parties we use. It's genuinely ridiculous.

Since moving to this tiny, "purpose built" office, there've been 5 resignations in 2 months.

Can't wait to get out of here.

Ed

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

My wife has accepted finally she can't advance further than she is. She is senior in her field and at work they use her as the expert. But she doesn't like managing people and she is not good dealing with higher ups. She is a good manager for her employees when she was. As a manager you look to make the job of the employee easier and protect them. Everyone liked her when she was a manager, except those above her when she called out their male cow feces.

I always liked to work with strong, ethical women. In my last position I was hired by a black woman director, and I did my utmost to support her. Two months after starting I was sent to the UK to audit new product manufacturing in preparation for a regulatory site inspection. There was no joy in putting together a report on their process validation listing all the defects the regulators would catch and the required procedural fixes and retesting. Site management decided to do nothing and regulators found every single defect I noted. That delayed approval by 18 months. So once back, I was in the copier room doing some work, and that director was passing by. She dropped in and told me that she was proud to have hired me. That made me feel good. I always thought about a web of responsibility to those my senior , peers, and those below me, BUT who I ultimately felt responsibility towards were those patients using the products I was responsible for, and I felt this the most in assuring sterility for injectable products.

 

[The Lorax]

This is what they don't tell you in school. All corporations are a tyrannical hierarchy structure. The people above you and next to you have control over your life. Because you require having your needs met and we live in a society, meaning the USA, where basically you need to pick yourself up by your bootstraps a worker has no autonomy. So it is hard to speak out if something is wrong. If your manager sucks it takes all of the people in the department to go above his head and risk getting fired.

Between my wife and I we have worked at many places, some large, some small. Working for small companies was the worst experience. There is one boss that thinks he knows everything and there are no protections against their wrath. I got fired from one job by the owner because I refused to sign a document that might impede working in my field.

In larger corporations there is bureaucracy. The reason you have it is due to the size. Thus why government tends to be inefficient, due to the size. Same with corporations. My wife once got a project that made no sense. She kept going up the boss ladder to find out why her group was assigned it. 7 bosses later, in which they all passed the buck, the project was canceled. We could only speculate that they had spent less than their budget and had to fill something in not to lose the difference next year. This is not uncommon in large corporations. Also why on earth as a senior did she have 7 bosses above her we wondered?!?!?

Overall working for a larger company seems to be better.

If you have autism it is even harder. You can get bosses than nod their head at your disability and still act in a manner that isn't helpful. I am a pretty smart person. I have research autism, neurology, and psychology, to understand it better so I can be better for my son and my wife. I have a pretty good understanding of it and I am still learning. I put in a lot of effort to get where I am at. Having a non-critical thinker boss worried about their own situation makes it incredibly difficult for them to remotely understand an ASD's position.

Of course if things go sour it escalates because NTs are social. Difficulties with ASDs spread, negative sentiment spreads. All it takes is one NT to ruin your job. Not put on all of the above I mentioned. Makes work difficult. They don't understand that you use an ASD's talent for their specification. You realize what benefit a person can bring to the company and maximize it. They don't get it.

Understanding ASD made me realize the mind games NTs do in life and how so many things are trivial within social circles yet required to survive. The best 3 bosses my wife had were a minority black man, and two bosses that had ASD children. So they all knew what it was to suffer and be treated unfairly.

Luckily where she is at now her boss it like that. I work for myself. My son's condition forced me to reinvent myself. I also got tired of working for the man watching promises go unfulfilled.

FYI only children suffer in social deficiencies as well. When you have siblings you learn the social skills required for life. The benefit of being an only child is that you are less influenced by group think. I am an only child.

But I feel for all of you. I have seen my brilliant beautiful wife suffer at her job due to some incomer sabotaging and undermining her because they didn't understand her. Then it spread leading to her getting fired by an overachieving boss.

One thing I realize when talking to overachievers is that they have no concept of what it is to have a neurological disability that can involved lacking social skills, oversensitiveness, high and low emotional states, ticks, OCD, and other things. They have a well balanced brain and can't step out of their world. They don't get why a person is so depressed they can't get out of bed that morning.

I am a perfectly normal NT myself but I have seen this with my wife and son.

One note my best friend is a very functional NT that works hard and gets things done. I have spent years drilling in his brain 20-30% of the population just can't "pick themselves up by their bootstraps" and do things when they have a lifelong impairment that only escalates on itself without help adjusting for it. Or that a decent chunk don't have the intellectual capacity to get out of living paycheck to paycheck.

Really mind numbing to see this level of purposeful ignorance from him. I have to remind him when he says such foolishness that my wife can't get out of bed without her medication. She has ASD, ADD, and depression.

Anyways off my soapbox. Point is I empathize with all of your troubles and understand your troubles dealing with NTs. Sometimes I want to smack them upside the head myself.

 

[Darkkin]

Statistics on the ASD community nearly 80% of autistics are unemployed or underemployed. (US). A recent book titled Hard Landings takes a look at members of the ASD community as they age out of what support programs there are. It is an interesting read.

 

[The Lorax]

Well I already got a lawyer for my son. I give him a 40% chance of not making it in the workplace. I am trying to encourage him to do his own thing. I used to play poker for a living. That gave me the money to run my business. Now I play for recreational. I am very good. My son is smarter than I am and has an incredibly math brain. I trying to nudge him to learn because with his love of math he can literally be a millionaire by 25 if he puts his mind to it. He likes computer science also so that is a good field for him.

But we don't know where he will be at. Some days he is a normal teenager. Other days..... like today. He woke up happy, got to school on time, did everything you except from a normal happy kid. Picked him up happy....... within 5m of getting home we hear smashing, pounding and, and breaking in his room. He was pounding on the bed.

The reason? His headphones didn't work. He is 15. It took 2 hours to calm him down properly and still we had to walk on eggshells not to upset him into shutdown mode.

So I don't know what will happen. I lean on he will be ok. My wife has the same conditions and she is very successful in her field. But even she can't go further due to autism. She is stuck at senior level which is pretty good money.

And yea 80% don't work. Some have PhDs and still can't work.

While I understand autism now for a while after my son was born it was hard to wrap my head around his behavior. My wife didn't know she had it yet. Then one word really put the pieces together.....

Trypophobia refers to a strong fear or disgust of closely packed holes.

Which blew my mind people can have this. But it made me realize how much of us is biological. Just because what causes an extreme reaction is different it doesn't mean it is invalid. Like I can't play 3d first person shooters. Within 1m I am sick to my stomach. But I can read in a car, on a boat, or look at a show. I get disgusted at the taste and smell of brusselsprouts. Many people don't like that but just because more people have what I have doesn't mean it isn't less important than trypophobia.

I am waiting for when I die my eye blink open and there is Lawerance Fishbourne sayins "welcome to the real world" as they unplug me from the Matrix.

 

[Darius]

My boss told me that I work a little faster than the others and I shouldn’t expect others to live up to my standards.

You can slow down and take some break. You can take longer lunch, read a book, etc.Don't burn yourself out.

I then told him (and backed it up with numbers) that when I’m working with 4 coworkers, I’m consistently doing about 80% of the work and some coworkers working from home just log off when I’m working and let me do everything by myself.

Either they let you... Or you take their tasks on your own. You taught them, they can do nothing and still get the rewards because you will do it anyway. So, don't do more than you need. It's hard, but they need to be responsible for their work. Not sure how you share the workload, do you have tasks or whatever. But stick to it. If you have too many tasks, tell your boss. You need to take breaks, even if you feel guilty. It's on the boss that the work is delivered on time and that people are not overwhelmed with tasks. Don't do overtime if there is no real need. The deadlines most of the times can be postponed. If not, you need to have the coworker's help (and real). On meetings you can ask the boss how this work could be shared. Etc.

Not all of those things can be done everywhere and at all times, but you need to be your own advocate to not be burned out. And at worst, maybe a new work would be a better solution in the end. You could start looking around, even if you don't want to change the work now - you will know how valued you are.

My coworkers got told off and written off by my boss, and now they’re mad at me for “snitching”.

I'd probably first try to move back some of their tasks back to them and see it backfire on them. You can tell them directly, that you don't have time to pick up their tasks. And take your time at work - even go for a walk (I needed therapy to be able to slow down at work - it's been better for me). And if they call you out, you can play dumb. "Was I supposed to do that? You didn't ask for my help." Also - having things written helps your case. If you have written down a summary of meeting with who does what task (and CC boss) then it's harder for them to overwork you.

TL;DR the point is you can do much more than just tell the boss honestly they don't work. You can say "no" to others and take your time at work to not be overwhelmed with work.

 

[Rocco]

I think what you are looking for is solid dose of hypocrisy? With little bit of grandiose narcissism thrown in?

I don’t understand what you are saying. What I am looking for, literally, is a way to get through life more effectively. I would prefer to do so as an honest person and learn when and when not to speak about things.

 

[StrayCat]

What I am looking for, literally, is a way to get through life more effectively.

That is very broad and vague question though, since it depends on what you want out of life. What is your end goal?

learn when and when not to speak about things

General rule of thumb seems to be the less one speaks, the safer it is. The more you speak, the more chances you have that someone will hate you for it.

 

[Darkkin]

That is very broad and vague question though, since it depends on what you want out of life. What is your end goal?


General rule of thumb seems to be the less one speaks, the safer it is. The more you speak, the more chances you have that someone will hate you for it.

There is a measurable gap between speaking up on a subject and becoming the target of another person's hate. (Keep a realistic perspective with things.) The majority of people are not going to hear or read an opinion and decide: That person's opinion sucks, so I hate that person.

Speak up when you need to, but consider the battle, is it worth the spoons? More specifically, would speaking up benefit you and/or others? Will it help you understand more concisely and improve things in a relationship or job preformance? If you aren't sure, listen. Consider what questions you have. If possible write them down.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

There is a measurable gap between speaking up on a subject and becoming the target of another person's hate. (Keep a realistic perspective with things.) The majority of people are not going to hear or read an opinion and decide: That person's opinion sucks, so I hate that person.

Speak up when you need to, but consider the battle, is it worth the spoons? More specifically, would speaking up benefit you and/or others? Will it help you understand more concisely and improve things in a relationship or job preformance? If you aren't sure, listen. Consider what questions you have. If possible write them down.

Very good. In my role regarding quality of drugs and devices, I never hesitated to speak up when either of two things occurred. The first was when process testing could be conducted more efficiently to yield the necessary data. The second was when there were departures from well controlled processes that had any potential of creating a product that did not meet standards for efficacy, strength, purity and safety.

It was my job to speak up as an advocate for patients using the product. AND, the fact that I was looking out for cost by doing things efficiently and effectively gave me a lot of leeway, as in one project saving $400,000 and a months worth of work.

 

[Hypnalis]

I don’t understand what you are saying. What I am looking for, literally, is a way to get through life more effectively. I would prefer to do so as an honest person and learn when and when not to speak about things.

I think this is a better way of stating your objective than the first post in this thread. But there's still an echo of contradiction in it: "honest communication" isn't a simple concept.

If you want to either convey "the one true perspective" on something or say nothing, you won't be as successful with the "easier way through life" part of your objective.

Gerald's post is a nice example that fits a typical mid-level heuristic which could be stated as: "take a strong position (only) when it's your responsibility, and it matters in context".

There are a lot of these heuristics (hundreds), and AFAIK there's no "central list" ... but that doesn't matter here. More importantly, look at one of the things that's not explicitly stated in that one: "even if you're right, don't fight unless it matters".

If your personal definition of honesty means it "always" matters to you that others make errors, you can forget about "easy", and instead aim at "less difficult".
Note that I have no opinion about your definition of honesty as such. That's up to you. This post is about "cause and effect", not "good and bad".

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Thus why government tends to be inefficient, due to the size.

In the provision of services, governments are always more efficient than ANY for-profit entity. Having worked in pharmaceutical drugs and devices nearly my entire career I have had a good look at healthcare. There is good reason why America's health-insurance provisioning of healthcare is the most expensive in the world with outcomes more like a third-world nation. NO for-profit insurer can ever be as efficient and effective as Medicare or universal healthcare with a government single-payer system.