ASD and NT

[danjustlovescoffee]

Have you ever been told that a specific difficulty you had was due to ASD but later found that even NT people had the same difficulty?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Absolutely. It is this very phenomenon that allows people to minimize your situation. "Ohhh,...everybody has had that happen." Well, that MAY be true, but if that specific difficulty is pervasive,...then it's not a once in a while thing to be ignored. There is a long list of potential traits, signs and symptoms of autism,...take one or a few of these,...isolate them, and a neurotypical will likely have some of these issues. On the other hand, take 10-20 things, make them pervasive, combine them into one person,...you've got another situation.

I have commented recently on a YouTube video from a well-known psychologist and marriage counselor upon his suggestion that Asperger's may simply be a form of neurodiversity. As well-meaning as that may seem, it also is highly minimizing given the 100 or so, sensory, motor, and intellectual difficulties I deal with on a daily basis. Yes, autism is A form of neurodiversity,...many of us are "out-of-the box" thinkers, and that can be a good thing,...but don't try to pass autism off as simply that. It's much, much more.

I have also pointed out in other threads here, that there is a common difficulty with autistics called "theory of mind", some may call it "mind blindness",...but basically it is the difficulty or inability to take another's perspective. "How would it feel if I did that to you?" So many people on here have commented and complained about how to deal with the neurotypical world or a person in their lives,...because many of us lack the perspective component. YET,...because most neurotypicals, most of the time operate on an emotional level, and just react,...they too, are less likely to take another's perspective. We see this in all sorts of reactionary statements on social media sites, in politics, etc. Personally, once an autistic is self-aware of their situation, they are more likely to intellectually pause and consider perspective before reacting,...so I am not sure, if from a daily functioning perspective, there is much difference. Granted, I have much intellectual practice with this as I do work with the public, but I have found that with my personal life,...knowing my wife for 38 years,...and still have zero idea what is going in her head,...I've just accepted that. Perhaps I am just fooling myself when dealing with the public and I truly don't have a clue.

 

[Markness]

My older cousin put it best when I was talking to him about having AS and struggling socially:

“Mark, socialization is hard for everyone. Why? People are stupid!”

 

[Judge]

Have you ever been told that a specific difficulty you had was due to ASD but later found that even NT people had the same difficulty?

Quite frequently by my NT cousin, who at just the mention of an autistic trait or behavior, will attempt to marginalize it with such a generalization. Almost like a "knee-jerk reaction", claiming that everyone behaves in such a manner.

Sure NTs can have a few of autistic traits and behaviors, but they don't have many and certainly not all of them that are possible. But I think for some of them it's important to marginalize whatever claims we make just to shut us down in an attempt to force us to adapt to their way of thinking.

To ultimately conform to an overwhelming neurological majority. One that doesn't appear to classify their particular neurological quirks as a "disorder" or in tiered groups of severity. Now why is that?

 

[danjustlovescoffee]

Absolutely. It is this very phenomenon that allows people to minimize your situation. "Ohhh,...everybody has had that happen." Well, that MAY be true, but if that specific difficulty is pervasive,...then it's not a once in a while thing to be ignored. There is a long list of potential traits, signs and symptoms of autism,...take one or a few of these,...isolate them, and a neurotypical will likely have some of these issues. On the other hand, take 10-20 things, make them pervasive, combine them into one person,...you've got another situation.

I have commented recently on a YouTube video from a well-known psychologist and marriage counselor how Asperger's may be simply a form of neurodiversity. As well-meaning as that may seem, it also is highly minimizing given the 100 or so, sensory, motor, and intellectual difficulties I deal with on a daily basis. Yes, autism is A form of neurodiversity,...many of us are "out-of-the box" thinkers, and that can be a good thing,...but don't try to pass autism off as simply that. It's much, much more.

I have also pointed out in other threads here, that there is a common difficulty with autistics called "theory of mind", some may call it "mind blindness",...but basically it is the difficulty or inability to take another's perspective. "How would it feel if I did that to you?" YET,...because most neurotypicals, most of the time operate on an emotional level, and just react,...they too, are less likely to take another's perspective. We see this in all sorts of reactionary statements on social media sites, in politics, etc. Personally, once an autistic is self-aware of their situation, they are more likely to intellectually pause and consider perspective before reacting,...so I am not sure, if from a daily functioning perspective, there is much difference. Granted, I have much intellectual practice with this as I do work with the public, but I have found that with my personal life,...knowing my wife for 38 years,...and still have zero idea what is going in her head,...I've just accepted that. Perhaps I am just fooling myself when dealing with the public and I truly don't have a clue.

I really think that holistic approaches are the best. You can't really isolate an issue since they often work together in order to mess things up. It is the same for NT people although they have their NT issues.
I hate being told that NT people are good at socializing. They often suck at it and many talk about how difficult it is. And their theory of mind can be reallly bad at times.
So I will have to put it this way:
We all have our issues and difficulties. Some issues are more accepted than other issues.

 

[WildCat]

Pay attention and you'll witness some things that everyone will have difficulty with from time to time. The main difference I believe will be your attitude in handling it.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

every thing in the universe is on a continuum hense, quantum mechanics.

 

[Suzette]

"Theory of mind" is a failed theory in my opinion. This idea is trotted out to dehumanize autistics, not to understand them.

The world is full of war, rape, murder, child abuse, spousal abuse, elder abuse..I could keep going and never find an end to all the ways humans are horrible to one another. Yet, somehow, autistics "lack empathy" or the ability to understand from anothers perspective? Crap "science" to gain attention, nothing more!

In fact, the whole idea is so lacking in empathy that one wonders if the scientist who postulated that idea wasn't a sociopath. "Physician, heal thyself!"

This summer a family friend had a party. Normally I would have avoided the party but it had been years since I saw this person, so I went. A guest found out I lived on a boat and cornered me several times to ask questions and converse. I listened politely. Did my best to answer his questions and stood there trying to figure out what he was after. What did he really want to know? He wasn't forthcomeing but he kept trying different angles. It seemed like he was poking about looking for something and hinting, but at what, I didn't know. After he cornered me a couple of times I avoided him by being in another part of the yard.

Afterwards my mother made a big fuss about how how I was "so social" and "obviously much more comfortable than I am". I just laughed. My mother belongs to several social clubs and has many friends. "One upmanship" seems to be a very n.t. trait.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

"Theory of mind" is a failed theory in my opinion. This idea is trotted out to dehumanize autistics, not to understand them.

The world is full of war, rape, murder, child abuse, spousal abuse, elder abuse..I could keep going and never find an end to all the ways humans are horrible to one another. Yet, somehow, autistics "lack empathy" or the ability to understand from anothers perspective? Crap "science" to gain attention, nothing more!

In fact, the whole idea is so lacking in empathy that one wonders if the scientist who postulated that idea wasn't a sociopath. "Physician, heal thyself!"

One one level I do agree with you with respect to "all the ways humans are horrible to one another". Absolutely, there are psychopaths and sociopaths out there. There are people, who have had their amygdala triggered, and no matter how much rational thought you present to them, they are going to dehumanize a group of people. This is a strategy used in propaganda and military training,...treat them, "the enemy", as something other than human and you can do all sorts of horrible things to them. There are also a lot of "beta males" out there that,...out of fear and insecurities (amygdala again),...will want to control and intimidate, will do all sorts of mind games to make you feel somehow "less than". Bullies. In situations were fear and anxiety (amygdala again) overrule rational thought, the concept of another's perspective is bypassed,...and selfish behaviors are triggered. In all of these situations the processing centers for "cognitive empathy" have been bypassed.

So, with respect to the autism literature, at least from my interpretation, is that it has been identified that most,...not all,...neurotypicals,...in a calm, rational, state of mind,...will exhibit cognitive empathy and be able to "put themselves in another's shoes". On the other hand, it has been identified that many autistics,...not all,...lack this ability. Personally,...it is quite clear I don't have this ability. I am very self-conscious of this fact,...so, intellectually, I do sometimes have to pause,...perhaps ask some critical questions,...gather my information,...then react. Which also means I cannot allow my emotional state to dictate what I say and do,...which takes an incredible amount of self discipline and puts in a built-in delay in my responses to others.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Discussing my social anxiety and lack of understanding social signals that made connection nearly impossible for me, I've had NTs who used to go to clubs to meet guys for sex tell me that they were anxious about being approached. I see that as minimizing my real dysfunction. They take minor discomfort and blow it out of proportion when it actually did not prevent their functioning.

I dislike such diminution of lived experience and am losing empathy towards those NTs who ask for sympathy when I never received any.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Pay attention and you'll witness some things that everyone will have difficulty with from time to time. The main difference I believe will be your attitude in handling it.

That diminishes some lived experience. I was ASD at a time when ASD was rarely diagnosed, but with my intelligence people thought I was normal and offered no help. Blind to social communication I had intense social anxiety, though my social desires were the same as anybody's. As a consequence I was isolated.

So, without the skills or help, how would you expect me to respond? I just refused to process the hurt and now am dealing with the PTSD.

 

[Suzette]

So, with respect to the autism literature, at least from my interpretation, is that it has been identified that most,...not all,...neurotypicals,...in a calm, rational, state of mind,...will exhibit cognitive empathy and be able to "put themselves in another's shoes". On the other hand, it has been identified that many autistics,...not all,...lack this ability. Personally,...it is quite clear I don't have this ability. I am very self-conscious of this fact,...so, intellectually, I do sometimes have to pause,...perhaps ask some critical questions,...gather my information,...then react. Which also means I cannot allow my emotional state to dictate what I say and do,...which takes an incredible amount of self discipline and puts in a built-in delay in my responses to others

I've been thinking on this a lot today. The problem is, of course, one doesn't know what one doesn't know.

Thinking back over my experiences when I was younger, I think I could not always put myself in others shoes but I wasn't without empathy. I couldn't understand my mothers perspective until I was in my 30s for example. But how could I do so when she wasn't forth coming with any part of her experience and I had no experience of my own to relate with. I assume that is just what "growing up" does- personal experience broadens perspective.

Still, I have been called a narcissist and I assumed this was a baseless insult. But, as I said, I don't know what I don't know. Perhaps I miss the point entirely.

 

[Au Naturel]

One one level I do agree with you with respect to "all the ways humans are horrible to one another". Absolutely, there are psychopaths and sociopaths out there. There are people, who have had their amygdala triggered, and no matter how much rational thought you present to them, they are going to dehumanize a group of people. This is a strategy used in propaganda and military training,...treat them, "the enemy", as something other than human and you can do all sorts of horrible things to them. There are also a lot of "beta males" out there that,...out of fear and insecurities (amygdala again),...will want to control and intimidate, will do all sorts of mind games to make you feel somehow "less than". Bullies. In situations were fear and anxiety (amygdala again) overrule rational thought, the concept of another's perspective is bypassed,...and selfish behaviors are triggered. In all of these situations the processing centers for "cognitive empathy" have been bypassed.

So, with respect to the autism literature, at least from my interpretation, is that it has been identified that most,...not all,...neurotypicals,...in a calm, rational, state of mind,...will exhibit cognitive empathy and be able to "put themselves in another's shoes". On the other hand, it has been identified that many autistics,...not all,...lack this ability. Personally,...it is quite clear I don't have this ability. I am very self-conscious of this fact,...so, intellectually, I do sometimes have to pause,...perhaps ask some critical questions,...gather my information,...then react. Which also means I cannot allow my emotional state to dictate what I say and do,...which takes an incredible amount of self discipline and puts in a built-in delay in my responses to others.

Welcome to the club. My wife gets irritated because "I take too long" to respond. Or there will be a "long pause" in the middle of my saying something and she'll start talking in the middle of what I'm saying. I've actually timed it and the longest she'll wait for me to continue before jumping in - either to start talking herself or to to demand I "get to the point" - is about 2 seconds and I can see her getting antsy before that. We've been married 35 years and she still does it. The length of an "appropriate" gap in a conversation must be very difficult to unlearn.

If you're just shooting from the hip, so to speak, a couple of seconds seems forever. That works fine for most people because they are confident that their immediate instincts are correct. If you know you're likely to say the wrong thing, you have to be wary of opening one's mouth without first engaging one's brain.

Most conversations are just two people talking at each other. Prosody and body language and other nonverbal signals such as pheromones and eye contact. To the extent the actual word matter they are intended to show compatibility. Social conversation is a means to an end and that end is not the transfer of the information being spoken. It's more like two primates grooming each other.

 

[Au Naturel]

I've been thinking on this a lot today. The problem is, of course, one doesn't know what one doesn't know.

Thinking back over my experiences when I was younger, I think I could not always put myself in others shoes but I wasn't without empathy. I couldn't understand my mothers perspective until I was in my 30s for example. But how could I do so when she wasn't forth coming with any part of her experience and I had no experience of my own to relate with. I assume that is just what "growing up" does- personal experience broadens perspective.

Still, I have been called a narcissist and I assumed this was a baseless insult. But, as I said, I don't know what I don't know. Perhaps I miss the point entirely.

When we try to see ourselves from anther person's perspective we often fail. The reason for this is we don't know the other person's perspective, we can only imagine it. Our imagination is limited to what we know and what we've learned. Our imagination automatically tells us what we would do if we were in their shoes. So an NT looks at an ND and imagines why an NT would behave like an autistic person behaves - and it is usually not pretty. An ND looks at an NT's behavior and is at a loss, declaring it irrational - or worse.

The solution is to simply accept that there are reasons for why people do what they do and it doesn't matter that we don't
understand it. If you relax and stop fighting over what is logical or who is better, then you can start to learn.

Not what I could reasonably expect from a kid but something grownups ought to work on.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I've been thinking on this a lot today. The problem is, of course, one doesn't know what one doesn't know.

Thinking back over my experiences when I was younger, I think I could not always put myself in others shoes but I wasn't without empathy. I couldn't understand my mothers perspective until I was in my 30s for example. But how could I do so when she wasn't forth coming with any part of her experience and I had no experience of my own to relate with. I assume that is just what "growing up" does- personal experience broadens perspective.

Still, I have been called a narcissist and I assumed this was a baseless insult. But, as I said, I don't know what I don't know. Perhaps I miss the point entirely.

I could not put myself in another person's perspective unless I experienced something similar, but when I did it led to odd behavior in trying to be social. So I learned to distrust such feelings.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

The solution is to simply accept that there are reasons for why people do what they do and it doesn't matter that we don't
understand it. If you relax and stop fighting over what is logical or who is better, then you can start to learn.

Exactly! This is the point I want to reach as I process my past.

 

[Suzette]

I could not put myself in another person's perspective unless I experienced something similar, but when I did it led to odd behavior in trying to be social. So I learned to distrust such feelings.

I was listening to an Autistic YouTuber the other day and she mentioned that many autistics relate by sharing similar experiences. An example might be "I got robbed at gun point", "Really? Me too! I got robbed at gun point a few days ago!"
I do this all the time!

To my N.T. family this is "inappropriate" behavior and is attention begging behavior.

To me it is more "Yes! I experienced something similar and we might have common thoughts, feelings and insights that unite us in the shared human experience."

I wonder if this might be a clue that autistics DO have empathy but we express it in a way that is incomprehensible to n.t.s? Just a theory.

@Au Naturel, I agree that accepting others behavior is right thing to do. For myself, I don't need to understand others to find my place. I just find understanding others fascinating. I like looking at all the gears and cogs and comparing those against mine. You know like: If I move my arm this bug wheel turns. What turns when you move your arm?

 

[Au Naturel]

I'm not sure what about sharing a common experience could be considered inappropriate. NTs do this all the time. I suspect there's something deeper going on. Maybe they don't like the things you share rather than the act of sharing. Not the kind of stuff they would be willing to share, so obviously it's wrong to do so. And maybe it feels uncomfortable to hear your experiences. They'd probably be happier if you shared traditionally NT stuff.

And that brings us back to masking.

 

[Suzette]

Not the kind of stuff they would be willing to share, so obviously it's wrong to do so. And maybe it feels uncomfortable to hear your experiences. They'd probably be happier if you shared traditionally NT stuff.

I have no idea why my experiences would make anyone uncomforable. I am not a C.I.A spy or road house stripper!
Whatever the memo is, I can't read it!
I usually just keep quiet. That makes everything easier!

 

[Au Naturel]

CIA spy was one of my fantasies as a kid. Watched too many spy shows on TV. Never became a reality.

I was a stripper once. Sharing those experiences would make some people uncomfortable. So I don't very often.