at wit's end with Aspie friend

[Spinning Compass]

This is a tricky one to evaluate. He's already indicated that he has more than a friendship interest in you--at least that's the way I interpret what he said about dating. There are some people who are so caught up in their own minds that that is all they can see and they won't take any other answer than the one they've come up with in their own mind. I guess what I'm saying is that I am concerned because this could potentially backfire on you. There is a perception that people on the spectrum can't be manipulative. I disagree. I know myself that there have been times when I have put my pet obsessions ahead of other people, didn't know and didn't care about the harm I was doing to relationships with my family, with others, all I cared about was me, me, me and getting my own way. I was not only mindblind, I saw no reason to change.

If this guy is developing an obsession on you he may very well find ways to come between you and your boyfriend in a passive-aggressive manner, using his Asperger's as an excuse. Because there really is no way to tell on the outside what a person is capable of doing but refuses to do, and what they are truly incapable of doing. Some of us who are highly intelligent are aware of this, and are perfectly capable of exploiting this fact. Things like continuing to come around even though it irritates your boyfriend, let's say. Until things escalate into it's a "me or him" situation. I don't know that this is the case, but I'd be very careful, especially if he's indicated an interest in dating you.

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

Honestly I have no idea whether he still imagines he and I could date. That would require an excellent imagination, bc it wouldn't be even a remote possibility, ever. Not even if he wore clean non-plaid shirts (sorry I hate plaid), did whatever it would take to zap the stenchy B.O., lost the pocket protector, stopped combing his hair randomly in public, stopped countering every %&#! thing I say with made-up statistics (by way of "conversation"), became nerdy in areas I find interesting, and was re-born in an area that leaves males with all the parts they're born with, and, no. You can't change the essence of a person to make them compatible with you intimately.

He's a really kind friend, but if he's being kind in hopes of dating me, there's no point. Remember the flawed-but-illustrative pseudo-scientific "Ladder Theory"? The Ladder Theory AspieFriend is on the friend ladder, always was. BF is on the BF ladder, always was.

BF may seem to be out of my league in several ways, from AspieFriend's view. That doesn't mean the relationship won't work, or that if BF dumped me (unlikely bc I'm quirky in ways that particularly suit BF's preferences) I'd ever "get realistic" and trade down to AspieFriend.

There may be ways in which AspieFriend feels more desirable as a man than BF is, but they're not things that matter to me at ALL. BF is fat, for example. I don't care; I'm crazy about BF's natural scent.

Weird. I'd really thought this topic was settled months ago, but you all may have a point.

Would you suggest only doing things with AspieFriend if BF is present?

 

[Ylva]

Why are you telling us? He's the one you should talk to.

I'm not great with hypothetical situations, so as far as your last question is concerned, there is insufficient data.

 

[Spinning Compass]

I would somehow try to wean yourself off this friendship by steering him if possible to other people. Simply because you are female and he is a male who has expressed interest in you. If he is like some of the guys I have known, having your boyfriend around is not going to deter him any. Some of these guys are very single minded. Just because you don't see any future with him--in fact, it sounds like you are repelled by him--does not mean that he feels the same way. If anything, he will become all the more determined.

I think you need to talk to your boyfriend and ask him what he truly thinks about this friendship and does he see this guy as a potential threat to the relationship. If, as you say, he's been rude to your boyfriend, that's something your boyfriend has probably already noticed and made up his mind about without necessarily saying what he thinks. He may be "putting up" with the situation for now. It's like a woman who is married to a man who is a real *&*%. Her friends may put up with him for her sake, but sooner or later they aren't going to be coming around as often, and eventually they become too busy to come around at all. Because they don't like seeing her being treated rudely, and they don't like being treated rudely themselves. If this guy is hanging around and treating your boyfriend like dirt, then that is a danger to your relationship if you allow it to go on. I have had friends I have stopped seeing because their husbands would repeatedly make rude and personal remarks about my weight and they would just stand quietly by. Maybe they couldn't say anything, but I did not have to listen to it, and I chose not to.

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

Why are you telling us? He's the one you should talk to.

bc Spinning Compass shared insight that had never occurred to me. Perhaps I should have directed my question specifically at Spinning Compass; it's not the sort of thing AspieFriend would give me a direct or relevant answer to. He's not going to admit "yes I'm hanging around in hopes of eventually dating you, and only go to BF's movie nights in hopes of getting between you two" if that's true.

I don't want to encourage any delusions that I'd ever date AspieFriend.

I'm also no longer willing to waste BF's time on this guy. Plenty of people would like to meet BF, bc he's accomplished some interesting things in his field. ("___ is pretty much a god" is the way one acquaintance described BF, and I'm not introducing him to BF bc this acquaintance just wants funding for a start-up.) It's nice that AspieFriend isn't wowed by this sort of thing, but if he doesn't appreciate BF as a person either or even bother getting to know him, then BF shouldn't waste his own time just being nice to a friend of mine.

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

I would somehow try to wean yourself off this friendship by steering him if possible to other people.

Thank you.

I'm sorry about your former friends' husbands being rude to you, and them not standing up for you. Ugh. Now I realize I probably should have told AspieFriend "you're BF's guest, don't leave him waiting" or something. My bad.

As for silently putting up with irritation ... that's not BF's style. BF was ascribing any rudeness to AspieFriend's Asperger's/ASD. I finally told BF about some of the things AspieFriend had posted on his private blog (saying he'd look forward more to [something boring] with me than to a movie night with BF) so now BF is giving that some thought. Those sorts of comparisons just aren't ok. AspieFriend sent a mail to both of us trying to initiate a movie night where I'd be present, and that was the first thing that truly irritated BF. "[AspieFriend] needs to realize that *we're* the couple."

I've already done quite a bit to steer the guy to other people. He found Aspie meet-ups at my urging, and goes to some communication-oriented meet-ups. So you're right, now it's up to me to back away slowly.

I was really naive in thinking he'd have given up on the idea of dating me. Thanks for pointing that out; it's a key issue I was embarrassingly blind to.

 

[Ereth]

Oh, geez . . . you'd only mentioned the "movie with BF" part of his blog posts. Now I definitely think that your Aspie friend is into you.

While I do think that it's possible some of the lack of realization on his part may be due to the AS, you and your boyfriend should draw clear lines.

 

[Ylva]

Spinning Compass, I like your friendship policy. I have been too slow to ditch "friends" previously, mostly because my mother really wanted me to have friends.

ZaphodsCloset, I keep wondering if your name is a Hitchiker's Guide reference, but the last half throws me.

I'd stick with being straight with him, but you know best. Alternative to being straight about the nonexistent relationship potential: just come out and list the things you dislike so much. I don't want to generalise all Aspies just from me, but if you had said that stuff to me, about me, you would not have seen or heard from me again. If we'd met accidentally after that I would have ignored you.

 

[Jb25jb25]

Hi Zaphods,

Great song, thanks


I've dragged him to various meet-ups, where he's made some new acquaintances, but nothing's really developed. (Yea, that's how it works)To his credit, a lot of the people there were probably less evolved socially than this friend is(way too many dipshits out there); my BF joined us for a games night we attended, and later said our friend seemed to have a lot more going on than the rest of the participants did(unknowingly draws attention/snickering due to utter lack of all things around him? correct). It's hard to find the right setting.( by himself) Mostly, this friend is interested in finding a Relationship ( bc he's never had one, a real one, incapable-no friend's and your at wits end..) , which makes him seem dismissive of potential male friends.( people take advantage, defense mechanism) And with women, he comes across as a bit over-eager, even when he's playing it cool. ( so he announced when he was "playing it cool" ? Reason being is because he knows he can't (can't stop rapid speech patterns) , but wishes he could..sad yes, true most likely)

Originally Posted by Jb25jb25
And hopefully you will better prepare him if another kind person tries to reach out.
That's exactly my hope( you must be an extremely kind person), Justin. Despite my vast shortcomings as a friend to him(please. Youre on here trying to figure him out for god sakes, more on that in a sec), and as bored as he seems( can't read faces, therefore unconcerned of putting one on for you, he's not bored, his minds racing about something...) to be with BF's company, I feel like we're better than nothing, a chance for him to practice, a means of maintaining at least a little connection until he gets what he needs.

At times, through his blog, he makes it SO clear that his standards for friendship are soooo specific and so high, and that I'm appreciated but so far from the mark. ( thats a perfect persona to display to this harsh world if you naturally repel people due to your aspergers) But I'm a huge believer in a little, imperfect connection being better than none at all. (He appreciates you now for sure and says so, but attaches that your not perfect part for some reason? Because he is guarding himself, won't fully invest himself because he fully expects you to fade away like all have before you)

You guys sound very kind. If you want to help, I would try some things I mentioned earlier.

Justin

 

[Ylva]

I am sorely tempted to root for him, if only because I get sick and tired of people assuming I'm flirting when I'm not. No, I can't make a syllogism out of that and no, I still can't say I know enough about him to judge in your place, but that's how it feels.

 

[whatJimhasbecome]

I do this same thing. It's said you can only say a lot to someone that's willing to listen. Personally, I don't have many people in my life willing to listen or read/respond to my lengthy responses. In recent years, written/typed conversations have changed. I used to write 3 page emails and get 3 pages back. Then, everyone started replying to the email from their phone and 3 pages got diminished to 3 sentences. It's quite sad...to think that we as a species are evolving into creatures with shorter attention spans.

There's a good chance that you just don't have what it takes to be what this dude needs in his life. He's obviously the type of person that is asking for more out of you...a more you can't seem to give. When relationships fall apart, the person being cast aside will oftentimes latch onto the remaining bit of caring. It's possible that he knows your willingness to go the extra mile is being compromised.

Maybe he finds more pleasure in writing to you than you do reading what he's written.

And, if he's secretly in love with you, don't assume he can't handle the idea of unrequited love.

Ultimately, if you can't handle the friendship, end it. Don't beat dead dogs...as the old saying goes.

 

[Ste11aeres]

While I do think that it's possible some of the lack of realization on his part may be due to the AS, you and your boyfriend should draw clear lines.

Yes. We often do fail to realize things as a result of our AS, but that actually means people need to be extra clear with us. One of the worst things people have done with me in the past was they would fail to be clear with me when I was causing a problem, they would be "kind" and string me along, and let things continue, until things got worse and worse and worse and finally they couldn't take it anymore and then they let me know there was a problem, which was a huge shock to me, and would have been a shock if they had told me earlier, but it still would have been better to have heard earlier, before things got so bad, and it would have been less of a shock to have heard earlier, because when I heard things told to me later, I was either surprised because having been allowed to continue in the same way for so long I had assumed it was fine, or because even if I had sensed something was wrong, the clarity only came when it was too late.

Longest sentence I've every written on AC.

 

[Ste11aeres]

BF is fat, for example. I don't care; I'm crazy about BF's natural scent.

Wow. That describes the only guy I once truly fell for.

 

[nowwhat]

"[AspieFriend] needs to realize that *we're* the couple."

The penis is a stupid beast, and the aspie penis dumbest of all. Mine gives me no end of trouble.

 

[ZaphodsCloset]

ZaphodsCloset, I keep wondering if your name is a Hitchiker's Guide reference, but the last half throws me.

Right you are! Zaphod Beeblebrox was voted "Worst Dressed Sentient Being in the Known Universe" seven consecutive times. The closet part is a commentary on my own wardrobe.

if you had said that stuff to me, about me, you would not have seen or heard from me again. If we'd met accidentally after that I would have ignored you.

Your sig reminds me of a similar quote,
“What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.”
― Eugene T. Gendlin, Focusing
If I smell bad and this makes it more difficult for people to enjoy my company, and I want company (I don't always; and I don't always shower) then knowing this would give me choices. Same with stims like the hair combing, or verbal habits like immediately contradicting someone and thinking it's "conversation."

I am sorely tempted to root for him, if only because I get sick and tired of people assuming I'm flirting when I'm not.

For some reason, I've been assuming you're a woman. If that's true ...maybe that's why males presume you're flirting. Sheer optimism on their part. BF says that in any interaction between a straight man and a woman, over 80% of the time the man will be pretty sure the woman likes-likes him. (He cites an actual academic study, but I don't remember the source.) Men have said "wow, I'm not used to women hitting on me" after I merely said hello. FWIW, I don't think this guy is hitting on me; my only indication he was interested were things he's written in blog entries about his relationship chances. I do think he attributes my non-interest to non-ability and bandwidth issues, rather than to his own off-putting habits and not matching up with my physical and intellectual preferences. But if he were able to handle that, he'd figure it out from seeing me with BF. (AspieFriend and I met three months before I met BF.)

the clarity only came when it was too late.

I've experienced this, too, in a work situation. It's devastating.

How much would you suggest telling him? I'll see him Sunday, and maybe then I can ask him how much he'd want to know, and whether he'd rather hear it from me or someone else. And whether he'd rather hear it face-to-face, or have it in writing or something. It would be easier if there were a list a social guidelines, and I could refer to "guideline 47.3" when he's pushy/hoggy with making plans. (He spends a lot of time detailing his further availability when one plan has already been made. This comes across as needy and oblivious to my other plans.)


I'm surprised at how many people say to write him (or myself) off. "Either you meet all his needs or don't bother" seems a very restrictive concept of friendship.

Phasing out if he has a thing for me, on the other hand, makes sense.

 

[Ylva]

Your sig reminds me of a similar quote,
“What is true is already so. Owning up to it doesn't make it worse. Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.”
― Eugene T. Gendlin, Focusing
If I smell bad and this makes it more difficult for people to enjoy my company, and I want company (I don't always; and I don't always shower) then knowing this would give me choices. Same with stims like the hair combing, or verbal habits like immediately contradicting someone and thinking it's "conversation."

You remind me of Penny, the Big Bang Theory character who beats all the other women on the show by being kind and patient without being all sugary sweet. She's just the kind of neurotypical I'd want to be friends with in real life. Even her sarcasm isn't mean-spirited, it's more of a coping mechanism, and also a non-threatening way of telling the truth. I often wish she would just tell people her opinion straight up, but then there wouldn't be a plot I guess.

That's useful information about men. My mother never told me much about them, she probably assumed I would figure it out for myself. If there's an eighty percent chance they're thinking about sex anyway, I can stop thinking that what I perceive as him flirting is just normal, polite interaction. It gets complex…

I think it would take a lot for me to interact with someone without mirroring them.

 

[Ylva]

Also, thank you for the (stealth) book rec.

I like your logic.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I've experienced this, too, in a work situation. It's devastating.

How much would you suggest telling him? I'll see him Sunday, and maybe then I can ask him how much he'd want to know, and whether he'd rather hear it from me or someone else. And whether he'd rather hear it face-to-face, or have it in writing or something. It would be easier if there were a list a social guidelines, and I could refer to "guideline 47.3" when he's pushy/hoggy with making plans. (He spends a lot of time detailing his further availability when one plan has already been made. This comes across as needy and oblivious to my other plans.)


I'm surprised at how many people say to write him (or myself) off. "Either you meet all his needs or don't bother" seems a very restrictive concept of friendship.

Phasing out if he has a thing for me, on the other hand, makes sense.

I would sit down with him, maybe the three of you, BF included, and verbally and explicitly stating that
You feel he (secretly or not so secretly) wants to date you. This is not happening. It's just not.
Then I would give him a choice: A. He can make the decision from now on that his intentions will be purely platonic, that he will not scheme, daydream, etc, about dating you, and will attempt to also be friends with BF.
B. If the above is too hard, he can end it.

But there will not be a C option where he ends up dating you. Not ever.
It will be hard to state all this, and hard for him to hear it, but it sounds necessary.
When I read your first post, I thought your problem was simply one of being annoyed by his probably involuntary habit of too many words. SO my reaction was that you should just put up with him. But according to the other details you ended up adding, it seems that things are more complicated, and the above discussion is necessary.

Now the above hypothetical conversation gives him the option of continuing the friendship...with clearer boundaries. If you, however, think it is too hard and that you just need to end it, you have the right to decide that.

Odds are that from fear of hurting him, because you do care about him, even if you don't like him in the same way you like BF, you might be trying and trying to think of the perfect words with which to say all that. But there are no perfect words that will be completely painless. Sometimes something just is the way it is.

 

[Ylva]

Word of caution: telling someone not to think about x is the surest way to make them think about x, even if x never occurred to them before that.