Autism and actual brain on why we have social issues?

[Tony Ramirez]

I now finally admit I have the social skills of a turnip which makes me feel sad thinking all this time I thought I was doing this great job talking to people especially women when in reality I was only having real brief crappy conversations while a neurotypical can go on for over a half an hour and flow no problem. It is like I grew up with wolf's, and I am socializing with society for the first time. I accept it, and it sucks, which is why I will never have a casual female friend.

Anyway enough with my trauma dump, I want to know what is actual physically wrong with our brains. Really what is messed up like is there something wrong with the color or is something dented or something that makes us suck and socializing or even maintaining eye contact. Even make us talk to someone without a 2 word conversation or even one that can at max last long as 5 minutes. What is there not enough liquid or stuff in the brain or something?

 

[marc_101]

The short answer: nobody really knows and probably there is not one reason and there is nothing "wrong" but simply different than most of other brains.

If everybody else were autistic, we would be communicating in different ways.

 

[Tony Ramirez]

The short answer: nobody really knows and probably there is not one reason and there is nothing "wrong" but simply different than most of other brains.

Then how come most neurotypical have no issues socializing even though who are shy, while I try my best but ultimately still suck rotten eggs at it. My brain has to be actually damaged to be this bad at socializing, especially after 5 years of doing it intensely.

 

[Tired]

Then how come most neurotypical have no issues socializing even though who are shy, while I try my best but ultimately still suck rotten eggs at it. My brain has to be actually damaged to be this bad at socializing, especially after 5 years of doing it intensely.

Only you think that we don't have issues, we do, especially if we are shy. Stop talking about everyone like you know every damned person in the world, how they perceive the world, and how they behave, and why - you don't know and you can't imagine. It's harder for asd people to socialize, yes, but it doesn't mean that all nt people have no issues with it.

 

[Tony Ramirez]

Really already. I have seen 5-year-old's with better social skills than me.

 

[thejuice]

Only you think that we don't have issues, we do, especially if we are shy. Stop talking about everyone like you know every damned person in the world, how they perceive the world, and how they behave, and why - you don't know and you can't imagine. It's harder for asd people to socialize, yes, but it doesn't mean that all nt people have no issues with it.

dont tell him what to do

 

[Tired]

dont tell him what to do

Don't tell me what to do.

 

[Tired]

Really already. I have seen 5-year-old's with better social skills than me.

Yes, just as there are autistic people here who have more friends than I (NT) do, so what? People are different, that's what I'm telling. And specifically social skills is something which can be learned, and you got a lot of tips here from many people, and you already are using them (like you know when to stop trauma-dumping and not go to church or yoga now, when you feel in a bad mood. you are learning, don't give up).

 

[Tony Ramirez]

I had people actually tell me that my conversation with them is going fine and is perfectly normal, even women told me that. I just can't stop comparing my self to others.

 

[Nitro]

 

[Tony Ramirez]

Just read this. Wow.
https://www.succeedsocially.com/onewordanswers
I tried this with a woman three times at church on Sunday, and I thought I was a social failure.

If you've made a few attempts to get someone to open up, and the conversation still isn't going anywhere, then politely wrap it up. No one wins if you resentfully feel like you're pulling teeth, and they wish you'd give them some space.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Tony Ramirez

I've never seen any science that seemed to offer a reasonable explanation. There is some science, but nothing I though I could use.

But I have an approach ("what" rather than "why") that works ok for me:

It seems that there are things that very young NT children learn "automatically" that we don't learn.
For most of the people here, that's various forms of indirect and non-verbal communication, along with body language and many social cues.

Of course it varies from ND to ND, so a list isn't possible. And there's a Dunning-Kruger" aspect to it as well:; you work with something you don't know. In our case it means we don't know how big our social and communication deficits are, nor what exactly is "missing" or "incomplete".

Note: there are a lot of airheads on the web who use "Dunning-Kruger" as an insult, but that just shows they are fools. Everyone has it in knowledge or skill domains for which they are relatively unskilled or have not been trained.
So people who are bad at math have it for math - but if they're good at languages or creative writing or woodworking or whatever they don't have it (or not enough to matter) in those domains.

Back on topic: not learning those things as kids seems to lead to our learning them the way people learn a language as adults. It's hard work, and it generally takes a long time before it's no more effort to use your second language than first language. And even then you're probably not perfect at the new language.

But you can go to school (or a suitable country) to learn a language.
Our problem isn't that we can't learn these social and communication things, but that there are no classes.

BTW your situation probably isn't as bad as you think. Though you definitely have some work to do.
But while it might be "a journey of 1000 miles", it sounds like you've taken the first step.

PS: Your post #11 suggests you've taken your first two steps

BTW: that thing about the starting a journey with one step is actually formulated in "li", which are about 500 meters (1/2 km), so it's only about 1/3 as many steps as it sounds with miles

 

[Misty Avich]

It's understandable to feel frustrated when you make an effort with people yet feel like you have no results. I feel the same. My social skills aren't that poor yet I don't have many friends and never have. I have some friends I suppose but normally through work and most are other NDs like myself. Plus most of my friends are guys, as I like being around guys, being a tomboy who doesn't really conform strongly to female norms.
You make more of an effort than I do actually, going out and joining different churches and chatting to different people. I think that's great. It's just a shame you get so rejected and I never get why. You sound like a nice guy. Maybe it's just a mystery of the world, like me when people on Facebook unfriend or block me but add others who know them less than I did and become quite close over Facebook. I'll never, ever understand that in a million years. And I do get upset and frustrated about it at times, not just because I'm hurt but I really want answers too. Whenever I explain this to people they don't get it, they just think I'm talking about random strangers like I'm stupid enough to think sending out friend request to random strangers on the other side of the world is going to bump up my Facebook friends list. Um, no, I'm not that dense.
And neither are you. And please don't let them put you off trauma dumping on here, because you have every right to do it here with us, I have time for people like you, as your issues are valid and not self-inflicted.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I want to know what is actual physically wrong with our brains. Really what is messed up like is there something wrong with the color or is something dented or something that makes us suck and socializing or even maintaining eye contact. Even make us talk to someone without a 2 word conversation or even one that can at max last long as 5 minutes. What is there not enough liquid or stuff in the brain or something?

Neurologists are still learning, but there appears to be a convergence of several factors that make up the "autistic brain". We do know there is at least 3 identified brain morphology types. We know that very early in gestation the cells in the brain of the autistic will migrate and layer differently, starting in the thalamus and cerebellum (early, primitive brain). The cells, themselves, are characterized by too many (enhanced sensory issues, enhanced abilities) and too few synaptic connections (deficits). The prefrontal cortex is highly affected (communication center), as is the thalamus-to-hypothalamus-to pituitary signaling (interpersonal bonding). There can be thalamus-to-cortical dysrhythmias causing tinnitus and visual snow syndrome. The amygdala's (fear centers) are often hypertrophied. Overall, there is an abnormal presentation of connectivity ("wire thickness") and conductivity ("voltage signals"). Furthermore, there can be an abnormal amount of glial cells in the brain (immune function) that can lead to an oxidant-to-antioxidant imbalance. There are at least 3 identified genes affecting dopamine turnover (causing varying degrees of depression). There is often an imbalance of excitatory-to-inhibitory neurotransmitters (GABA:glutamine) that can cause repetitive thoughts and behaviors, stimming, etc. Methylation pathways and creatine metabolism are altered, causing mental fatigue. Melatonin metabolism can be altered, contributing to sleep disorders.

This is just the little bit that I know of. I am sure that a neurologist, specializing in autism, would be able to elaborate much further. I don't think we are far away from being able to perform neuroimaging and neurodiagnostic testing to medically diagnose autism.

 

[jsilver256]

It should be noted that while it is definitely harder with autism, we all have the ability to improve our social skills. I believe all of us are capable of communicating a point without resulting to insult, and all of us are capable of adjusting our expectations of others.

One place I might suggest for you to start @Tony Ramirez is to change how you approach your church. Rather than seeing your church as a vehicle which benefits you (friends, women, etc), see it as a single body where you are a valuable member and can contribute to the whole. Read all of 1 Corinthians 12 - all Christians have gifts, and I believe reframing yourself as an integral part of a whole will do wonders for your mental health.

 

[Seladon]

I want to know what is actual physically wrong with our brains. Really what is messed up like is there something wrong with the color or is something dented or something that makes us suck

This is the funniest and most endearing sentence I’ve seen you post, so I don’t think you’re as deficient as you think in terms of social skills. I mean, you got a laugh and a smile out of me, even though iirc we’ve disagreed in the past and we seem to have disparate beliefs. Why not allow yourself to communicate like this irl, with vivid and genuine concrete language? It makes you interesting to talk to.

makes us suck and socializing or even maintaining eye contact. Even make us talk to someone without a 2 word conversation or even one that can at max last long as 5 minutes.

Is this a universal ASD skill issue? Because unless I dislike or distrust someone, or have good reason to, then I normally can’t shut up and can chunter on about any old rubbish. Tbf though that is a form of masking and fawning. I will admit that paranoiac mutism kicks in for me when I’m not sure of a person’s motives, probably because I don’t trust that what I say won’t be used against me or my loved ones.

 

[marc_101]

Neurologists are still learning, but there appears to be a convergence of several factors that make up the "autistic brain". We do know there is at least 3 identified brain morphology types. We know that very early in gestation the cells in the brain of the autistic will migrate and layer differently, starting in the thalamus and cerebellum (early, primitive brain). The cells, themselves, are characterized by too many (enhanced sensory issues, enhanced abilities) and too few synaptic connections (deficits). The prefrontal cortex is highly affected (communication center), as is the thalamus-to-hypothalamus-to pituitary signaling (interpersonal bonding). There can be thalamus-to-cortical dysrhythmias causing tinnitus and visual snow syndrome. The amygdala's (fear centers) are often hypertrophied. Overall, there is an abnormal presentation of connectivity ("wire thickness") and conductivity ("voltage signals"). Furthermore, there can be an abnormal amount of glial cells in the brain (immune function) that can lead to an oxidant-to-antioxidant imbalance. There are at least 3 identified genes affecting dopamine turnover (causing varying degrees of depression). There is often an imbalance of excitatory-to-inhibitory neurotransmitters (GABA:glutamine) that can cause repetitive thoughts and behaviors, stimming, etc. Methylation pathways and creatine metabolism are altered, causing mental fatigue. Melatonin metabolism can be altered, contributing to sleep disorders.

This is just the little bit that I know of. I am sure that a neurologist, specializing in autism, would be able to elaborate much further. I don't think we are far away from being able to perform neuroimaging and neurodiagnostic testing to medically diagnose autism.

Many of the things you mention are associations, not causal explanations. The brains of people who are locked in a room for one year will be different then the brain of people who are not. Of course, it doesn't mean that those differences caused changes in behavior. It is being locked in a room for one year.

To date, there is no good explanations about cause and effect.

It's the same for so many other conditions. For example, psychopaths have different amygdala size -- they are less likely to feel fear. They are fearless in a sense. People who experience brain damage in the amygdala do not feel fear either -- yet, they don't become psychopaths. (The Fear Factor by A. Marsh is great, by the way).

Here are some reviews:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-52279-x
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4801488/

 

[marc_101]

@Tony Ramirez

I think what others are trying to tell you is to not feel sorry for yourself. A lot of people have problems socializing.

The constant self-beating up is not going to help you.

Seek help and be open minded about the possibility that you can make improvements.

If you keep telling yourself that you can't, then that will become your truth.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Many of the things you mention are associations, not causal explanations. The brains of people who are locked in a room for one year will be different then the brain of people who are not. Of course, it doesn't mean that those differences caused changes in behavior. It is being locked in a room for one year.

To date, there is no good explanations about cause and effect.

It's the same for so many other conditions. For example, psychopaths have different amygdala size -- they are less likely to feel fear. They are fearless in a sense. People who experience brain damage in the amygdala do not feel fear either -- yet, they don't become psychopaths. (The Fear Factor by A. Marsh is great, by the way).

Here are some reviews:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-52279-x
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4801488/

At this stage of understanding, I think we are both dancing around partial truths. From a genetic and epigenetic perspective, there are known ASD genes, and there are known ASD-associated genetic and epigenetic genes. How much "genetic load" will ultimately determine causal effects in terms of the primary anatomy and physiology, the secondary core behavioral traits, that, in turn, may have downstream effects on the tertiary psychiatry and other behaviors that will lead to a diagnosis.

Brain anatomy, both gross and at the cellular level do highly influence the physiology and behavior. There are common behavioral traits that make us all autistics, but certainly, we are not all the same, which suggests that even within the context of the "autistic brain" there is enough morphological difference between individuals that, at this stage, makes identification challenging. Common core behavioral traits that make us all autistics are not a random occurrence. There are explanations, and at what point do associations become causation? This is subject to the scientific method. It is highly subject to context and perspective. We may find that there are several identifiable autism variants (I think we already know this) that explain what appears to be inconsistencies in these earlier studies. Statistics and data points, which we are narrowing down, becoming closer to the truth, but perhaps not convincingly enough yet to satisfy the answers.

As for your example of psychopaths and small amygdala size, obviously, small amygdala size is simply one of many genetic, anatomical, and physiological elements. With the autistic brain, it too, is a combination of several converging elements. What those are, I believe, we are getting much closer to the truth.

I am an optimist. We will figure this out.

 

[marc_101]

I agree that at some point we will know more. Not sure if that point is close, though.

The aim of my arguments is related to the OP: that we do not know the cause of ASD, which is the reason there is no diagnostic biomarker. No imaging/blood/genetic study that one can use to say that a person has autism. Nothing that anybody can say about a person as to the effect of you have XYZ and that's why you have problems interacting with other people.