Autism and Freedom from the Self - Exciting Study

[Danielle Sisco]

Good morning friends,

So yesterday as I was procrastinating on doing work I went on a very impromptu research binge (one of several I do in a day) and I was researching Autism brain scans for some enlightenment into my existence. I came across this very interesting research article, posted on the college website. Below is the link.

h/8745t9/tps://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2014/december/december2_thoughtmarkersauti*sm.html

So the study seems to be well done and empirically sound. They took 17 NT adults and 17ND adults (control vs study group) and using MRI they scanned their brains while the adults were asked to think about social constructs like persuade, adore and hug. The attempt of the study was to see if the researchers could adequately identify who was autistic versus who was not based on just the brain scans. The concept is that when a person thinks about social interactions the area of the brain presumed to interpret social situations lights up is what are known as thought markers. This area of the brain is also considered to be where the concept of self and others exist.

The results are startling. The NT brain displays absolute thought markers when asked to think about the social interactions. After the study the person also reports that they placed themselves in those hypothetical social interactions with other people as if they were the one getting the hug and conjuring up the feelings of the hug etc. While the autistic brain did not light up at all or if it did, very minimally. They also reported thinking about the definition of each word or they watched it from the outskirts like a zoologist might observe a hug between two chimpanzees in curiosity. This represents that autistic individuals do not have a strong sense of self.

The researchers claimed that they were 97% accurate. That 3% error rate is standard to assume. It was nearly perfect in other words. Therefore these researchers believe that they have discovered a true diagnostic measure. This is not the excited part. This actually makes me nervous since they may use this to further alienate us. Whatever!

I'm curious, what are your thoughts?

 

[Raggamuffin]

Promising results, although I think it may cost more to do MRI scans and assessments than the typical autism assessment. As such, would it become mainstream if it costs healthcare practices more?

I suppose only time will tell.

Ed

 

[Suzette]

I have'nt read the article but I assume the study participants were young adults. It would be very interesting for them to do the study on older adults 50+. I hypothesize that "sense of self" would be more distinct in older ND folk than younger ones.

 

[Martha Ferris]

This is one study with a small group of people. There are many hurdles to jump before a study is accepted as conclusive and that includes peer review and a greater study sample to name just two. While it may be interesting I would not get too concerned about it at this point.

 

[Danielle Sisco]

This is one study with a small group of people. There are many hurdles to jump before a study is accepted as conclusive and that includes peer review and a greater study sample to name just two. While it may be interesting I would not get too concerned about it at this point.

Very true, I'm curious if it can be recreated with the same results. I doubt it. I should trace the article back to the actual research article in a peer-reviewed journal. I doubt they vetted the participants to ensure that they all come from similar backgrounds like trauma free, socioeconomic status etc... Only then can it be validated.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

I have'nt read the article but I assume the study participants were young adults. It would be very interesting for them to do the study on older adults 50+. I hypothesize that "sense of self" would be more distinct in older ND folk than younger ones.

Good observation. I think for those of us who have had to overcome social trauma, especially without help, developing a sense of self and agency was critical. Despite problems with unwanted memories, I feel that my sense of self was very important in making progress.

 

[Suzette]

Good observation. I think for those of us who have had to overcome social trauma, especially without help, developing a sense of self and agency was critical. Despite problems with unwanted memories, I feel that my sense of self was very important in making progress.

That has been my experience also.

 

[Magna]

Interesting study. I believe it. In thinking about the word "hug", I absolutely identify with the idea of visualizing a hug as if I'm an observer. Also, in thinking about the word "hug" I wouldn't be surprised if I don't have a "marker" because the thought of a "hug" elicits no feeling within me; flatline feeling.

However, I would assume there are other neurological or psychological conditions, disorders, etc that are not autism but could exhibit a similar result, no?

 

[Varzar]

afaik, it's been quite some time that they've been able to use brain imaging to identify autism. That article is from 2014 after all.

However, it's a lot more expensive to perform those tests to diagnose people than it is to have someone sit down with a psychologist. So testing is still done by trying to assess symptoms, not by employing MRI machines. I would actually prefer if testing were done with MRIs, cause it wouldn't be so subjective as a psychologist assessing symptoms.

As for using this to alienate NDs more (even if it were a cheap test)?
I don't particularly see the motivation NTs would have to do that. Even if they did, how are they going to identify us after the test? Make us where an "I am autistic" pin? If we start getting to that point, yes, I'll be concerned (cause that's definitely shades of Nazi Germany). But until then, I don't see how the general population would recognize NDs any easier even if MRI testing were done regularly.

 

[Danielle Sisco]

I have'nt read the article but I assume the study participants were young adults. It would be very interesting for them to do the study on older adults 50+. I hypothesize that "sense of self" would be more distinct in older ND folk than younger ones.

That is also a good observation and hypothesis. It would seem that a sense of self can be developed through conscious work and experience. My former therapist worked very hard on helping me develop a sense of self. I do feel less depressed and happier when I can embrace her. Only it's not as often as I had hoped.

 

[Danielle Sisco]

That has been my experience also.

I shared my post with my spouse and she also made the point that many of us have had trauma. I have, and I know it's why I struggle with even wanting to have a sense of self.

 

[Danielle Sisco]

However, I would assume there are other neurological or psychological conditions, disorders, etc that are not autism but could exhibit a similar result, no?

Absolutely agree. This study points the light into a fast array of conditions. I see it less as a diagnostic or scanning tool to use in the future but these studies are very useful in designing and implementing better educational resources - actual tools that work for the PERSON and not the herd.

 

[Danielle Sisco]

afaik, it's been quite some time that they've been able to use brain imaging to identify autism. That article is from 2014 after all.

However, it's a lot more expensive to perform those tests to diagnose people than it is to have someone sit down with a psychologist. So testing is still done by trying to assess symptoms, not by employing MRI machines. I would actually prefer if testing were done with MRIs, cause it wouldn't be so subjective as a psychologist assessing symptoms.

As for using this to alienate NDs more (even if it were a cheap test)?
I don't particularly see the motivation NTs would have to do that. Even if they did, how are they going to identify us after the test? Make us where an "I am autistic" pin? If we start getting to that point, yes, I'll be concerned (cause that's definitely shades of Nazi Germany). But until then, I don't see how the general population would recognize NDs any easier even if MRI testing were done regularly.

I agree that really won't become a problem. I'm always just a little sketched out with alienation and subjugation. The aftermath of school yard abuse.

I do believe that this study has lead to a few recent developments in therapy approaches and more important, it provided the pathway for researchers to study symptom progression and to test the effectiveness of psychotherapy models beyond relying on the least reliable measures such as self-report and behavior observation.

I'm more curious about rather this means that we are closer to a "selfless" entity and if our ability to feel for the whole of a community is well developed. Look at all the contributions autist have made throughout humanity?

 

[watersprite]

I'm more curious about rather this means that we are closer to a "selfless" entity and if our ability to feel for the whole of a community is well developed. Look at all the contributions autist have made throughout humanity?

I’ve wondered about that too. Could it also be that since “self” is less absorbing for us, that we observe more detachedly (?) to examine systems and like to solve problems?

 

[Varzar]

I’ve wondered about that too. Could it also be that since “self” is less absorbing for us, that we observe more detachedly (?) to examine systems and like to solve problems?

I've read several articles suggesting AS people are less prone to several cognitive biases that are common among NTs. That might result in AS people considering solutions that otherwise might not be considered.

Back when I worked in IT, there were a few problems I worked on that other people had worked on, but their solutions either didn't work, worked inefficiently, and/or were incredibly difficult to maintain. I designed new solutions that didn't follow typical development paradigms. They worked efficiently, and were much more maintainable that the original. However, most others seemed to struggle to understand my solutions, I guess cause it didn't fit the typical patterns they were used to seeing..?

 

[watersprite]

...I guess cause it didn't fit the typical patterns they were used to seeing..?

I agree with this. Various people have noticed this in myself and labeled me, “very creative,” or“extra intelligent.” (I’m not)
IT people who are really great at it must have your ability to pretty quickly mentally try out, to run through patterns and solutions I guess? Then when you have done this many times, your brain eventually can skip certain steps and seem to leap to conclusions.

I don’t think I am particularly intelligent, though the ability you mention may be part & parcel with what is known as creativity.

 

[QuestJan]

So the study seems to be well done and empirically sound. They took 17 NT adults and 17ND adults (control vs study group) and using MRI they scanned their brains while the adults were asked to think about social constructs like persuade, adore and hug.

The link is a news release about the research. It is not a peer-reviewed presentation of the research. There is inadequate info to determine the quality of the research.

I remain ever suspicious of NTs thinking about autism. For example, Simon Baron Cohen gave "autistics" the puppet test and his NT-hates-autism brain interpreted this to mean that autistics lack empathy. We are born sociopaths. NVM the profound lack of empathy shown us.

The same test given to the 1st and later generations of Deaf children/adults in Nicaragua provided the same results but it was interpreted as just a language deficit. Language enrichment was the result.

Same test, same results, very different SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION. Our differences are perceptions that set us apart and enrich the world. But 'weird' is all NTS can gasp with their 68.2% brains and weird must be stamped out.

NTs are looking to prove what is WRONG with autism. The Nicaraguans were looking for what's RIGHT about the Deaf community. That hugely affects the outcome since they all found what they were looking for.

Stop believing the lies. We are legit homo sapiens that bring a unique perspective to the world that has made incredible differences to culture & science. The 68.2% obsess about the dangers of nonconformity.

How much credibility would research by white nationalists "proving" African/Asain/Etc. are inferior or men proving women's brains are inferior be given?

Autistics need to be skeptics of research done by NTs.

Science is little more than religion for many researchers with an agenda to prove.

The APA has been a leader in legitimizing harm to nonconformists. They would love to find an efficient way to medically marginalize us like in the good old days of institutionalism, eugenics, and lobotomies.

Institutions began closing in the 1980s. I worked for someone who mentored facilitated communicators. One of the autistic clients spent his child to adulthood in one of these institutions. His body was broken & twisted, and his spirit deeply harmed but he had much to communicate.

NT autism researchers will burn in hell.