Autism: Cynicism

[Noaen]

Humans are complicated, and I don't think its fair to make generalizations about them. I've found most people to be honestly indifferent, but thats always going to be the case of NT's and people on the spectrum. You aren't going to like everyone, and they aren't all going to like you.

And sometimes it isn't personal, for example if someone yells at you for doing somthing incorrect, it might not be because they are intolerant of your autism, but instead have really frayed nerves because their children couldn't sleep the night before because they were sick. Does it make it right, perhaps not, but everyone is human and they make mistakes.

There are plenty of people that are interesting and considerate, just it is often hard to find them, and often your going to encounter plenty of indifferent or inconsiderate people, before you find people you connect with.

 

[Jonn]

Do autistic people grow more guarded and reticent with age? Is it because they realize that most neurotypicals or non-autistic people don't have their best interests at heart?

I have never been as cynical as I am today.

I remember being told that autism is a disability only if autistic people are cut off from the resources that they so desperately need. In my line of experience, I've gained some insight and wisdom over the years. I've learned that most neurotypicals are intolerant of autistic people or if they aren't intolerant, they have very little knowledge about autism or they misunderstand the condition. In this confusion or lack of knowledge, bad circumstances can arise and lead to devastating consequences.

Yes, police have a problem understanding where we are coming from. I have heard a lot of stories about a misunderstanding, in that department. People have suggested having a card, or something, handly to hand over, to clarify the situation.

Are autistic people somewhat guarded and reserved and very hesitant to reveal the better parts of themselves, the more interesting parts layered against each other, underneath the superficial layer of benign indifference?

I pretty much don't mix with NTs, so it really isn't an issue for me.

 

[Jonn]

Humans are complicated, and I don't think its fair to make generalizations about them.

I 'generally' use the term "tend to", to make it clear that it isn't a blanket generalisation. If I leave it out, it is usually implied.

 

[AprilR]

I try to understand everyone's point of view and not judge people easily, however i have always been a private person too, i'd rather not risk myself and get hurt.

 

[Mister Anonymity]

Humans are complicated, and I don't think its fair to make generalizations about them. I've found most people to be honestly indifferent, but thats always going to be the case of NT's and people on the spectrum. You aren't going to like everyone, and they aren't all going to like you.

And sometimes it isn't personal, for example if someone yells at you for doing somthing incorrect, it might not be because they are intolerant of your autism, but instead have really frayed nerves because their children couldn't sleep the night before because they were sick. Does it make it right, perhaps not, but everyone is human and they make mistakes.

There are plenty of people that are interesting and considerate, just it is often hard to find them, and often your going to encounter plenty of indifferent or inconsiderate people, before you find people you connect with.

Humans aren't complicated. There's no justification for bad behavior. In the first few years of my life, humanity has not given me any indication that it could change or work towards a higher goal of benevolence. I remember being victimized by my school and classmates. I turned to the teachers. Did they do anything? No. They knew what was going on, and yet they did nothing. I asked one of my former teachers what happened, why they let it go on for years. She told me something that shocked me and chilled the blood in my veins. The teachers knew what was going on with my situation. They had full awareness of the situation regarding my bullying. They chose to do nothing because their jobs were at stake. If they chose to do anything, the PTA would be down their necks and their ass cracks. The parents of the bullies would crucify the teachers, if the teachers did anything on my behalf to punish my bullies. When you say that humans are complicated, you are justifying their bad behavior and making excuses for them. I think it's fair to make generalizations about human nature. Humans are complicated? That's like saying the police have a few bad apples in their department. Truth is, the police department is most likely riddled with systemic racism. Every time a bad police officer commits a crime against a black person (police brutality), the entire police department defends his actions in order to safeguard their authority against the backlash because if one police officer goes down, then the entire police department goes down with him or her. Human nature isn't complicated. Choices aren't complicated. People are prone to selfish behavior and make excuses for themselves in order to look good in the eyes of other people.

 

[Jonn]

Humans aren't complicated. There's no justification for bad behavior. In the first few years of my life, humanity has not given me any indication that it could change or work towards a higher goal of benevolence. I remember being victimized by my school and classmates. I turned to the teachers. Did they do anything? No. They knew what was going on, and yet they did nothing. I asked one of my former teachers what happened, why they let it go on for years. She told me something that shocked me and chilled the blood in my veins. The teachers knew what was going on with my situation. They had full awareness of the situation regarding my bullying. They chose to do nothing because their jobs were at stake. If they chose to do anything, the PTA would be down their necks and their ass cracks. The parents of the bullies would crucify the teachers, if the teachers did anything on my behalf to punish my bullies. When you say that humans are complicated, you are justifying their bad behavior and making excuses for them. I think it's fair to make generalizations about human nature. Humans are complicated? That's like saying the police have a few bad apples in their department. Truth is, the police department is most likely riddled with systemic racism. Every time a bad police officer commits a crime against a black person (police brutality), the entire police department defends his actions in order to safeguard their authority against the backlash because if one police officer goes down, then the entire police department goes down with him or her. Human nature isn't complicated. Choices aren't complicated. People are prone to selfish behavior and make excuses for themselves in order to look good in the eyes of other people.

Respectfully disagree.
Things are rarely black and white, imo.
Rather, I see most of life in shades of grey.

 

[Noaen]

What your teachers did was not to be excused, and bullying is not justifiable. However did you ever look at from a different perspective. If they have alot of complaints, they get fired or in trouble, they might have a family who has them as a sole breadwinner, should they risk their only source of income over a single case of bullying?

Would I take a stand, yes but I am a single man, with nobody relying on me, I can afford to be princpled but others cannot. Do not mistake me as attempting to justify their behaviour, merely I am stating its more than just a black and white dilemma.

As for your remarks about the racism in the police force, this is a very political issue. So I do not want to comment on it here, in respect for the forum.

I will say, I was bullied in school myself, I've seen who those bullies have become later in life, learnt about how, it wasn't their fault, and they had problems of thier own.

One of my bullies had a father who abandoned him, and a mother who coddled him, another serious self-esteem issues because their parent was not a pleasant at all.

Does it excuse what they did, it doesn't. But I acknowledge, that there was more than just black and white to the situation.

I even bullied some people myself, a fact I feel very gulity about, but I was young, and a seriously immature person myself, I've tried to apologise now to those people.

Because, I've changed, and there were circomstances, out of my control that made me a bad person. But considering I feel guilt about it today, it doesn't excuse my behaviour.

Most school systems are rather broken places, and your not the only victim of them.

 

[Mister Anonymity]

Respectfully disagree.
Things are rarely black and white, imo.
Rather, I see most of life in shades of grey.

I agree with your sentiment. You see things in a shade of grey, but other people don't. They see things in black and white, which makes them gullible. However, they end up selfishly disregarding their rigid morality in order to cheat their way through life and abuse those they deem inferior or different. Sure, life is often a shade of grey, but the general consensus is that it is black and white. They believe in good and evil, black and white. Our court systems are built on that fundamental principle of morality being black and white, and it is the reason we live in a world of moral hypocrisy. People think that life is good vs evil, until they have to explain away their actions. That's why I prefer life being a subtle shade of grey. People have to be honest with themselves instead of hiding behind their moral hypocrisy. They have to be honest about their worst attributes.

 

[Mister Anonymity]

What your teachers did was not to be excused, and bullying is not justifiable. However did you ever look at from a different perspective. If they have alot of complaints, they get fired or in trouble, they might have a family who has them as a sole breadwinner, should they risk their only source of income over a single case of bullying?

Would I take a stand, yes but I am a single man, with nobody relying on me, I can afford to be princpled but others cannot. Do not mistake me as attempting to justify their behaviour, merely I am stating its more than just a black and white dilemma.

As for your remarks about the racism in the police force, this is a very political issue. So I do not want to comment on it here, in respect for the forum.

I will say, I was bullied in school myself, I've seen who those bullies have become later in life, learnt about how, it wasn't their fault, and they had problems of thier own.

One of my bullies had a father who abandoned him, and a mother who coddled him, another serious self-esteem issues because their parent was not a pleasant at all.

Does it excuse what they did, it doesn't. But I acknowledge, that there was more than just black and white to the situation.

I even bullied some people myself, a fact I feel very gulity about, but I was young, and a seriously immature person myself, I've tried to apologise now to those people.

Because, I've changed, and there were circomstances, out of my control that made me a bad person. But considering I feel guilt about it today, it doesn't excuse my behaviour.

Most school systems are rather broken places, and your not the only victim of them.

Cowardice isn't a good look on anyone. Sure they would've lost their jobs, but it is the principle that mattered. Because they were unable to exercise their power, they weren't entitled to have any power in the beginning. The system was rigged from the beginning. If you have power, but you're unable to use it in a just manner, then you are a coward. As for the bullies, I have no sympathy for them. Sure they had a messed up childhood, but the truth of the matter is everyone has a dark side and a light side. If you choose to be kind and compassionate in spite of your worst attributes, then you are strong and brave. Most people who have had bad childhoods or experienced something bad in their lives like abuse, chose to make something of themselves and break the cycle by treating others with respect. Living through a ton of hardship shouldn't turn you into a bad person. It should propel you in a better direction.

 

[Els]

Cowardice isn't a good look on anyone. Sure they would've lost their jobs, but it is the principle that mattered. Because they were unable to exercise their power, they weren't entitled to have any power in the beginning. The system was rigged from the beginning. If you have power, but you're unable to use it in a just manner, then you are a coward. As for the bullies, I have no sympathy for them. Sure they had a messed up childhood, but the truth of the matter is everyone has a dark side and a light side. If you choose to be kind and compassionate in spite of your worst attributes, then you are strong and brave. Most people who have had bad childhoods or experienced something bad in their lives like abuse, chose to make something of themselves and break the cycle by treating others with respect. Living through a ton of hardship shouldn't turn you into a bad person. It should propel you in a better direction.

Living through hardship turned me in no direction personally. It didn't give me any will of being a bad person nor of becoming a good/better one. It learned me that I must behave badly sometimes and that I shouldn't invest myself that much in others, unless it's a conscious action devoided of any kind of expectation. But it teached me to have less expectations rather than having better or other ones, whether it was of myself or others. I know what I support and what I don't, but hardship definitely teached me to not necessarily be nice with others and expect the least possible from them. You say there are no justifications for bad behaviour. I say there are, self defense is one of them.
Just my experience and writting observations about how hardship changed myself. Not necessarily intented for judgement, just observations of my own behaviour's change. I don't believe I signed to be the best human being on Earth and I have no reason to become unreasonabily good with others, no reason to behave really badly either - unless one is given. That's what I learned, it's situational.

 

[Mister Anonymity]

Living through hardship turned me in no direction personally. It didn't give me any will of being a bad person nor of becoming a good/better one. It learned me that I must behave badly sometimes and that I shouldn't invest myself that much in others, unless it's a conscious action devoided of any kind of expectation. But it teached me to have less expectations rather than having better or other ones, whether it was of myself or others. I know what I support and what I don't, but hardship definitely teached me to not necessarily be nice with others and expect the least possible from them. You say there are no justifications for bad behaviour. I say there are, self defense is one of them.
Just my experience and writting observations about how hardship changed myself. Not necessarily intented for judgement, just observations of my own behaviour's change.

I agree with you. When you have seen so much hardship, you learn to adopt an exterior of indifference and cynicism. Society hasn't given us any incentive to be nice. When you have seen so much hardship, you lose your sense of humanity and your willingness to care about other people. Eventually you give up and see other people as a waste of your precious time.

 

[Els]

I agree with you. When you have seen so much hardship, you learn to adopt an exterior of indifference and cynicism. Society hasn't given us any incentive to be nice. When you have seen so much hardship, you lose your sense of humanity and your willingness to care about other people. Eventually you give up and see other people as a waste of your precious time.

I learned that if we have conflicting needs, then I advocate for mine in priority. Sometimes people lack consideration. That doesn't mean all relationships are a waste of time. Some are lost battles, not all.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

Do autistic people grow more guarded and reticent with age? Is it because they realize that most neurotypicals or non-autistic people don't have their best interests at heart?

I have become less guarded as I get older simply because I am so odd even for an aspie. I have always moved through life somewhat "heart forward". This has has caused me incredible amounts of pain and heartbreak. The pain is worth it for me. It doesn't kill me. I have just gotten used to it and have opened my heart even more.

Yes, it sucks to be so odd... I had a recent heartbreak that still stings horribly. It has only doubled my resolve.

The reason I am so odd is that I am very extreme in both ASD (docs said I would probably never walk or talk to my mother when I was 3) and ADD/ADHD (Teachers said I would never be able to learn because I was so unfocused). The reality was that I did learn... just too rapidly for them to keep my interest. I was reading Ray Bradbury in the 1st grade and had a college level vocabulary in the 4th grade. They still held me back in the 4th grade even after testing me and knowing this. (not a "Young Sheldon" here, lol)

These things could have made me very cynical but I think my attention span is so low that maybe I forget to be cynical.

One thing I would point out (and this may be an unpopular opinion) is that people on the spectrum are a cognitive minority. We are viewed as being "disordered". Most modern psychology bases itself on "Disorders" which I find to be unscientific and quasi theological. Disorder is a way of saying that we are not part of "God's Order". There is no natural order, just an order humanity sees because it categorizes things that it finds too complex to understand. (the aforementioned "black and white thinking")

People who are outside of that order have no right to be understood in the world of the "ordered". This is a form of oppression. All minorities who are oppressed have many people who feel cynical. Some fight back. Fighting back moves us forward. Standing tall erases cynicism. Standing with other oppressed people gives us the understanding and acceptance that we need. I would MUCH rather have pain in my heart and stand tall, than give up. Maybe we should be talking not about how we are treated by NTs but focus on how we can advocate for ourselves. We need to shift the culture and the conversation.


I hope to show that we are not disordered but just "differently functional". I have theoretical models that explain human psychology. Life is based on function, not order and there is a function for ASD.

We are what I call "Extra-Cultural" in that we do not learn or process our birth culture the way that culturals do.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[oregano]

^Sorry, I have to disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I don't want to get into an argument, but yes there is a natural order of things and people and yes autistics and other disabled people are outside of it. The "insiders" don't care about us except to get rid of us, which is understandable. People who try to fight back or "stand tall" or whatever inevitably get sucked into traps set by the "fake disordered" who are people who pretend to be like us so they can lead us to slaughter. The best thing is simply to give society what it wants and remove ourselves from it. They're happy, I'm happy, win win.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

^Sorry, I have to disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I don't want to get into an argument, but yes there is a natural order of things and people and yes autistics and other disabled people are outside of it. The "insiders" don't care about us except to get rid of us, which is understandable. People who try to fight back or "stand tall" or whatever inevitably get sucked into traps set by the "fake disordered" who are people who pretend to be like us so they can lead us to slaughter. The best thing is simply to give society what it wants and remove ourselves from it. They're happy, I'm happy, win win.

To each their own. I am a different person with very different ideas. I have no option to remove myself from the world. I need to earn a living and work with people who are very different from me.

I do not see disorders as scientific. You can read my book when I get it finished at some point and see if you agree with the ideas. These are scientifically testable models.

I do understand the pain that leads you to this way of thinking. My pain leads me to another. There is no disagreement but a difference in how we deal with the world we find ourselves in. My call to stand up will undoubtedly be very hard for many of us. Those who can will be of benefit to all of us.

I will disagree with one part... there is no natural order. There is function in nature. Order is an abstraction used by the human mind to simplify complex things.

Oh and one final part... I do not think there are people who pretend to be like us to lead us to the slaughter. We are slaughtered by people who find our differences abhorrent, not pretenders.

 

[Au Naturel]

I don't think I have become more cynical. I have become wiser. I am probably older than most people here. I could probably be a grandfather to some of you.

I have concluded that it is unrealistic to expect most people to understand autism - or even to make the effort to try. Each of us is the central character in our own play. It is the "me" show. Every other person in our lives is either a supporting character, has a bit part, or is a mere extra. Even a wife or child.

We must remember that they are also the central character in their own shows. We ourselves are just a supporting character in a few shows and a minor bit part or an extra in the rest. Letting an autistic person into their lives and accepting all the quirks and involuntary uniqueness is a huge effort for typical neurotypicals. It is a massive rewriting of the script for a minor character. How much of your script have you rewritten for them?

And that is why the world will not instantly change to be understanding and supportive. Autistic people need to rewrite their own script to whatever extent is practical - in order to compensate. It is rough when you realize that some aspects of your personality will never be considered acceptable in "polite" company. (Kind of like me and clothing.) That's where therapy may be useful. Or maybe just dumb luck. You may never be rid of your "eccentricities" but you can let them out to a sandbox if they promise to play nice.

Seek out niches where you fit in. The search for people who have a script where your character fits in is neither easy nor quick.

 

[Jonn]

^Sorry, I have to disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. I don't want to get into an argument, but yes there is a natural order of things and people and yes autistics and other disabled people are outside of it. The "insiders" don't care about us except to get rid of us, which is understandable. People who try to fight back or "stand tall" or whatever inevitably get sucked into traps set by the "fake disordered" who are people who pretend to be like us so they can lead us to slaughter. The best thing is simply to give society what it wants and remove ourselves from it. They're happy, I'm happy, win win.

Sounds like a plan.
Hang on,
That is *MY* plan!

I am seriously getting into a hikikomori mode.

 

[Jonn]

I don't think I have become more cynical. I have become wiser. I am probably older than most people here. I could probably be a grandfather to some of you.

I have concluded that it is unrealistic to expect most people to understand autism - or even to make the effort to try. Each of us is the central character in our own play. It is the "me" show. Every other person in our lives is either a supporting character, has a bit part, or is a mere extra. Even a wife or child.

Agreed.
Everyone is ultimately egocentric, even hardcore altruists.
No shame in that.

We must remember that they are also the central character in their own shows.

We ourselves are just a supporting character in a few shows and a minor bit part or an extra in the rest. Letting an autistic person into their lives and accepting all the quirks and involuntary uniqueness is a huge effort for typical neurotypicals. It is a massive rewriting of the script for a minor character. How much of your script have you rewritten for them?

For significant others, I will make them my universe.
It is a selfish pleasure of mine to do so.

And that is why the world will not instantly change to be understanding and supportive. Autistic people need to rewrite their own script to whatever extent is practical - in order to compensate. It is rough when you realize that some aspects of your personality will never be considered acceptable in "polite" company. (Kind of like me and clothing.) That's where therapy may be useful. Or maybe just dumb luck. You may never be rid of your "eccentricities" but you can let them out to a sandbox if they promise to play nice.

I see my eccentricities as a powerful asset. I lean into my differences. I savour my uniqueness.
It is empowering.

Seek out niches where you fit in. The search for people who have a script where your character fits in is neither easy nor quick.

I prefer mixing with my own kind.
And I prefer to do it over the internet.

 

[Aspychata]

l like our kind too. l feel free with our kind. They seem to be more accepting of idiosyncrasies. We cannot mask if we chose not too and the planet still revolves.

 

[Els]

If I may understand correctly, the problem you're pointing at is the violence of some members of society and the uncaring/undifferent behaviour of the others? The rejection as well?
And the selfishness/superficiality of relationships? The lack of genuine kindness?

Just to make it concrete in my mind.