Autism or learning difficulties?

[Misty Avich]

Okay, please keep it civil in this thread as I'm sensitive to criticism and personal attacks. I shouldn't have to issue a warning but some people seem to need to be reminded not to treat me like I'm a troll or like I need to be condemned for whatever happened in the past on other forums.

Anyway, I often wonder if my sister is on the spectrum or if it is just learning difficulties. She was diagnosed with learning difficulties when she started school. I know you lot aren't trained to diagnose but it still doesn't hurt to just see what you think.

I read up about learning difficulties in children and it said that behaviour and attention problems are more likely to go with learning difficulties, and all the kids at school that I knew who had learning difficulties all had attention problems at least. But my sister was withdrawn and quiet all through school and had a long attention span. My mum said my sister would often sit glued to a whole movie at a young age, without moving. She was also very tidy, her bedroom was immaculate, and she hated her things being touched. Having a tidy, immaculate room is rather unusual for a child.
She had speech delays as a toddler (I was a year younger than her yet I was talking before she was), and also some repetitive behaviours, like on a home video we have of us at a birthday party aged 3 and 4 all she did was bounce in one place for almost the entire video, without interacting with any of the other children and with just a blank expression on her face, and didn't want to participate in the party games.
I think my mum made her participate in one game but she seemed in her own world and didn't seem to know how to play 'pass the parcel'. I was trying to pass it to her but she just sat there very still and staring into space with her mouth open.
So she seemed to drift off in social situations but had a good attention span when it came to watching movies and doing her schoolwork. Yet she had learning difficulties and was almost a year behind her peers intellectually.

She was talking by age 4 but needed lots of speech therapy and extra support in the classroom. While my mum had several meetings at the school about my behaviour and my anxiety, she had to attend separate meetings for my sister's significant learning delays. Luckily for her she seemed to still make friends, despite her lack of confidence and social awkwardness that she does still display to this day. But she doesn't seem to have many emotions, despite being in an abusive relationship in the past (she was easily brainwashed and couldn't seem to pick up on the "red flags" that were quite obvious to the rest of us).

She has always been shy and lacked confidence and self-esteem, even though she seemed content and happy with barely any emotional expression except upbeat happiness.

What does this suggest? Could it be autism presenting in a weird way, or is it just the learning difficulties? Can people with learning disabilities be impacted socially to a degree? Or can people with Asperger's/autism make friends with their peers?

I forgot to mention that when she was 7 she joined a dance club but quit after about a year because she said that nobody talked to her and she didn't make any friends. But she had friends at school, although she seemed to make friends better with kids with dysfunctional home lives (even though she didn't have a dysfunctional home life).

 

[Neonatal RRT]

What does this suggest? Could it be autism presenting in a weird way, or is it just the learning difficulties? Can people with learning disabilities be impacted socially to a degree? Or can people with Asperger's/autism make friends with their peers?

The way you're describing it, she could be on the autism spectrum.

Learning difficulties, perhaps, but often times with neurodivergent minds, it's not what you're teaching but rather how you're teaching. I have no professional degree in teaching, but I've been an instructor at a university for about 30 years. This much I do know is that you often have to know the material well enough to be able to teach the topic more than one way. I find myself explaining the same concept in 2-3 different ways to capture different ways of processing information. Teachers in public schools, from what I understand, have their hands tied from their administrators and teachers boards to teach subjects ONE way. I find this absolutely unacceptable and you cause a great disservice to many children, and the parents at home trying to help them with their homework.

As we all know, school-aged children can be absolutely nasty and relentlessly bully and ostracize anyone they perceive as "different", whatever that is. So, yes, it can impact someone socially.

Relationships are always a two-way street. Reciprocity. I am nice to you, you are nice to me. I send you funny texts and you do the same to me. I invite you over to my house, you invite me over to your house. Here's the thing though, it takes thought and effort to maintain a relationship. If you are one that is "out-of-sight, out-of-mind", you don't miss people, and you aren't reaching out to this other person, and they aren't reaching out to you, then the relationship falls apart. It's this lacking of social reciprocity component (common in autism/Aspergers) that makes friendships and other relationships fall apart. Can one have good, friendly acquaintances? Sure. Most of us can get along great with people, be good co-workers, etc. but that's where it often ends.

 

[Misty Avich]

My sister is quite a pusher, or whatever the word is, meaning she'll keep texting someone suggesting to meet up again and again, without worrying that she's annoying them. I have done that before too with females but the friendship still fizzles away. They find me so uninteresting that they eventually unfriend me on Facebook, even though I commented nice things on some of their posts.

It's so depressing and I'm fed up with being me with my ugly brain.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

My sister is quite a pusher, or whatever the word is, meaning she'll keep texting someone suggesting to meet up again and again, without worrying that she's annoying them. I have done that before too with females but the friendship still fizzles away. They find me so uninteresting that they eventually unfriend me on Facebook, even though I commented nice things on some of their posts.

It's so depressing and I'm fed up with being me with my ugly brain.

So, what you are describing, in terms of reciprocity, is an imbalance. If someone texts you once a week, then meet them there, once a week. If it is twice a day, meet them there, twice a day. All of this is within the perspective, that someone actually likes you enough to want to be your friend, as opposed to a friendly acquaintance, which can be a bit nebulous. Coming on too strong certainly can push people away. Many a boyfriend-girlfriend relationships in my younger years fell apart for that reason. I was so excited that I had a girlfriend that she became my "special interest" and all I could do was think about her, wanting to be with her, talk to her. Well, come to find out, she had a life with other friends and family, other commitments for her time. I didn't understand her perspective. I was willing to spend ALL of my time with her, but to her, this sort of behavior became pathologic and it scared her off. She was willing to let me into her life, but I had to respect her life and her time limitations. I was clueless. I learned some hard lessons as a teenager.

 

[Misty Avich]

I know how friendships work. It's just females my age realise I'm worthless and back away, no matter what I do. I'm not the clueless "must live in their pocket" type, but I'm also not the aloof "I won't take an interest in them but I expect them to take an interest in me" type either. I understand the balance, but I'm still no good at being socially attractive to my peers.

I just feel my sister *should* be on the spectrum because I am and usually autism runs heavily in families like blue eyes.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

By "learning difficulties", do you mean an intellectual disability? Or do you mean circumscribed learning differences, such as dyslexia or dyscalculia? I'm not quite sure about the semantics.

Other than that, it'll be hard for any of us to say for sure. The way you're describing her she could be autistic, but not necessarily.

One thing I am learning more and more through my job is that things aren't black or white, even though I would like them to be. I am getting to know many AD(H)D kids who have noise and texture sensitivity, like to line things up, struggle with transitions, don't really make much eye contact, have routines, and get upset when things change. There seems to be a really significant overlap in those traits. What I try to pay most attention to when it comes to deciding whether autism, real full-blown autism, could also be mixed in there, is the social behavior and how those kids communicate with me and with others. A pre- or elementary school aged kid who has all or some of the above-mentioned things but has no difficulties at all when it comes to interacting with others, autism seems much less likely. That doesn't necessarily have to be the correct way, but I am trying to find my way in that profession, trying not to over- and not to underdiagnose, and it feels like that's not a bad tactic.

Especially when neurodivergence runs in families, I feel like there are many in-between people. People who might qualify for AD(H)D, have sensory issues, don't like change and are nerdy about certain topics, but with no big trouble in the social department - those are usually not autistic, at least not by definition. I like to think of those as "ADHD with a touch of autism" even though that's not technically correct. I might still tell the parents, though, because it affects how they should treat their kids about certain things. Others might have a bit of both, but with no full-blown diagnosis in either direction. (NOT saying this about your sister - I am just rambling on while I think)

I am very careful with saying much about descriptions online because there's always a bias. You'll describe your sister and focus on certain aspects, while not saying anything about other aspects (something completely normal, it's not meant as criticism). That creates bias, because we see only what you tell us about her, and we don't know her.

If she suspects being autistic, she should try to get a full, qualified evaluation. Only then it would be possible for a professional to make an educated guess.

 

[Misty Avich]

By "learning difficulties", do you mean an intellectual disability? Or do you mean circumscribed learning differences, such as dyslexia or dyscalculia? I'm not quite sure about the semantics.

She's never been dyslexic, though she has trouble with spelling and punctuation. I seemed to be ahead of her in spelling and punctuation when I was about 9 and she was 10.

Other than that, it'll be hard for any of us to say for sure. The way you're describing her she could be autistic, but not necessarily.

One thing I am learning more and more through my job is that things aren't black or white, even though I would like them to be. I am getting to know many AD(H)D kids who have noise and texture sensitivity, like to line things up, struggle with transitions, don't really make much eye contact, have routines, and get upset when things change. There seems to be a really significant overlap in those traits. What I try to pay most attention to when it comes to deciding whether autism, real full-blown autism, could also be mixed in there, is the social behavior and how those kids communicate with me and with others. A pre- or elementary school aged kid who has all or some of the above-mentioned things but has no difficulties at all when it comes to interacting with others, autism seems much less likely. That doesn't necessarily have to be the correct way, but I am trying to find my way in that profession, and it feels like that's not a bad tactic.

I was rather chatty at school with my girl friends (and some boys) but I was quiet in the classroom because I was scared of getting into trouble. But when we were allowed to talk whilst working then I was chatty with the other girls at the table. I loved doing work that involved colouring in because we could chat and colour at the same time and it made the class times go much quicker. Chatting to my peers never caused anxiety, but speaking in front of the class did. I just didn't like too many eyes fixed on me in a quiet room where I had to speak on my own. But that was probably just shyness. Children with ADHD can be shy too.
I don't really know what my sister was like in the classroom, but in her reports it often said that she was a quiet member of the class.

I am very careful with saying much about descriptions online because there's always a bias. You'll describe your sister and focus on certain aspects, while not saying anything about other aspects (something completely normal, it's not meant as criticism). That creates bias, because we see only what you tell us about her, and we don't know her.

Well I can only tell you what I can remember. There's always been a sort of social awkwardness in the way she converses but, like me, she's always been social too, despite being shy at the same time. Just like me.
There are a lot of similarities between us but some differences too. I've always been more emotional and expressive than her, while she's always been more laid-back and upbeat. I could have done with being more laid-back and she could have done with being more emotionally expressive, but even so, she's always succeeded better in friendships. But she has no signs of ADHD and never has.

If she suspects being autistic, she should try to get a full, qualified evaluation. Only then it would be possible for a professional to make an educated guess.

She's not really the sort to know that labels exist. She doesn't even know she has learning difficulties, although maybe she does deep down but just prefers not to let on (I don't blame her). But having learning difficulties seems less "serious" than Asperger's. When I was a kid my mum would always tell everyone I had Asperger's. Like "oh I have three children; a son and two daughters - oh and my youngest daughter has Asperger's syndrome..." But she never added the information about my sister having learning difficulties. So I don't think her learning difficulties was shoved down her throat like it was me. She got extra help at school but had made friends with the other girls who were also in the special ed group, while I was usually the only girl in my special ed group and felt backward compared to the other girls in my whole class, who seemed like geniuses.

 

[Judge]

By "learning difficulties", do you mean an intellectual disability? Or do you mean circumscribed learning differences, such as dyslexia or dyscalculia? I'm not quite sure about the semantics.

Good point. An issue that frustrates me. I personally relate to "learning difficulties" as being mutually exclusive to what might be called an "intellectual disability".

That some subjects can be terribly difficult for me to grasp, while others do not. Apart from the reality of also having a high degree of executive functioning required in one particular job I held for many years.

Leaving me to believe one might have issues with the learning process, but still be intellectually sound. And also continuing to wonder if someone like myself really could have comorbid ADHD. Probably of which will remain a mystery to me.

I still recall decades ago when attempting to learn Macromedia Flash and I struggled to grasp basic concepts of it. And then one day an outside contractor was able to communicate what I really needed to know in a 15 minute conversation, and it became one of those unique moments when I suddenly figured it out, almost like a religious epiphany.

 

[Ken]

Autism or learning difficulties?​

In my experience, it was a little more complicated.
Of course this was in the mid to late 50's and autism was a complete unknown in my area. My school diagnosed me as retarded with an extreme learning disability.

It could be said that the learning disability was due to autism, but not quite that simple. It turns out that I suffer from extreme social anxiety - still. I feel that is the autism. Teaching requires a teacher to teach, making it a social activity. Later in life, I realized that my issue is being taught, not learning. Left alone, I learn just fine. Fine enough to excel in a career that requires an advanced degree which I could never acquire. My social anxiety was too great to handle any level of college.

But my sister was withdrawn and quiet all through school and had a long attention span. My mum said my sister would often sit glued to a whole movie at a young age, without moving. She was also very tidy, her bedroom was immaculate, and she hated her things being touched. Having a tidy, immaculate room is rather unusual for a child.
She had speech delays as a toddler

Yep, all of that was / is me.

She was talking by age 4 but needed lots of speech therapy and extra support in the classroom.

Me too. I did get some speech therapy which worked miracles, but I never got any extra support in any classroom. School was a virtual nightmare for me.

Luckily for her she seemed to still make friends, despite her lack of confidence and social awkwardness that she does still display to this day.

Not me here. I was never good at making friends, or at least human friends. Never really wanted to.
Social awkwardness, yes, always had that. Actually; awkward is an understatement.

What does this suggest? Could it be autism presenting in a weird way, or is it just the learning difficulties? Can people with learning disabilities be impacted socially to a degree? Or can people with Asperger's/autism make friends with their peers?

Can't give a very intelligent answer. I would just say that autism is a spectrum.

I know without a doubt that I am autistic. Your sister seems to have enough of my life to fit, but not exactly in every detail. I guess that's the spectrum?

 

[Misty Avich]

Me and my sister were different from each other as babies/toddlers. I was speaking in full sentences before she was, and she was a year older than me. She needed speech therapy for her speech delays, while I needed a bit of speech therapy because my very short attention span affecting the way I responded with interaction (while I was articulate, I was very easily distracted, so sometimes if an adult was asking me a question I was suddenly distracted by something else and would walk away without giving an answer, for example). But my social recognition skills were good. My mum said that when I was 2 and a half her aunt came round, and I hadn't seen her for 6 months (6 months is a long time in a toddler's life). But as soon as she walked in the door (a surprise visit, so me nor my mum was expecting her) I pointed to her and said who it was to my mum. They thought that was very clever of me to remember who she was.

Also I was more affectionate than my sister. I mum said that when I was 3 we had a relative who lived in America come to visit us, and before she was due to fly back out to America, I ran over to her and put my arms around her, without being asked to. Everyone found that very touching. Also I was the only one out of my two siblings who loved snuggling up with my mum and holding her hand when walking.

My sister was more of a crier when she was a baby and a toddler, but she didn't really cry for attention. She just liked to cry to hear her own voice, maybe even as a stim. I didn't cry too much as a toddler but I cried more when I got older, while my sister cried less. My sister and my brother were both the more behaved ones as children, while I was the badly behaved one. But I was the most affectionate.

 

[blitzkrieg]

Blank facial expressions in certain scenarios and social awkardness both could hint at possible, underlying autism. Some people with learning difficulties are underdiagnosed, i.e, they have multiple health conditions or co-morbids and sort of just receive that non specific label because they might not fit neatly into any particular box, at least in an obvious way.

 

[Misty Avich]

Another thing I remember about my sister was when we were kids we would draw a lot but the people in her drawings didn't often have any facial expressions.

I remember we liked drawing South Park pictures, and I invented a thing where I'd draw the face of Kenny in the top left-hand of the picture to show what his facial expression was underneath his coat in the instant scene in the picture. My sister always just drew him with a neutral face, so I told her that his facial expression has to be more relevant to what's going on in the picture. Like one picture I drew of the boys being yelled at by an adult and the boys looking worried but I got Kenny to be smirking under his coat simply because the adult wouldn't see him. I drew that because I understood the urge to laugh when being yelled at by an adult and I often wished I had a coat or something covering my mouth in those situations. But my sister didn't seem to understand the way facial expressions worked until I had to explain it to her.