Breaking down the "Misunderstandings"

[Lucy521]

Hello... right now I'm really overwhelmed and resentful and frustrated and depressed and worried, and life (as a female Aspie) married to another Aspie (un-diagnosed and in denial) is REALLY complicated. I need to make one thing clear before I go any further... I genuinely love my husband and I've been spending my days reading and researching and trying to break down the dynamic so that I can take responsibility for what I'm contributing to the toxicity, while also trying to articulate exactly what I need my husband to take responsibility for. The marriage counseling we've been going to, with an ASD specialist, has oddly and sadly resembled observed abuse. It's as though she has no control over our sessions, which is probably a good place to start describing our dynamic...

A TYPICAL SCENARIO: My husband is very sensitive and gets offended VERY easily. He's extremely insecure and the smallest thing can quickly be misconstrued by him as an insult, AKA a "misunderstanding", which then creates immediate turbulence to the point of total meltdown (in both of us). We hate this part of our marriage. In hindsight we are both so saddened and hurt by it, but it feels like we have no control over the outcome. We trigger each other the moment this happens and it escalates like a game of tournament style ping-pong, from warm and loving to cold hate-filled disgust. Where does the love go? How does it go from hot to cold without any memory of what the hot felt like just moment earlier? It starts out with him feeling offended, which prompts him to voice his irritation in an aggressive way. I attempt to calmly explain his misinterpretation of the situation and he refuses to accept anything I say. He always has to be right, even when he's wrong. Whyyyyyyy??? We both feel invalidated in this moment, but we can't agree with or understand each other because we both see it from two completely different perspectives. My issue is this... his perspective is rooted in insecurity and denial. It always seems to boil down to this... he ALWAYS has an opposing view, without any desire to understand where I'm coming from, even after I explain in simple, logical detail. How can a man who functions from a place of pure logic suddenly reject any logic when it pertains to having his faults on display? It's as though I hold up a mirror and expect him to look at his own sh*t, but the reflection is so difficult for him to look at, he turns it around on me and makes everything entirely my fault. There's a lot about our communication that makes me feel like life is just one cruel joke, but I'm determined to find a way out of this frustrating dynamic. Once I lose patience with his inability to discuss a logical subject, I typically walk away very upset. Silent and cold. I feel so shut out. So invalidated. It's horrible.

How can I help my husband to look in the "mirror" without projecting all of his BS on me? He hates accepting fault/blame/responsibility for anything, regardless of how gently the subject is approached. I hate being invalidated and have a strong need to be understood and I know my patience is running thinner and thinner with every passing day/week/year. We often talk about divorce, but it breaks our hearts. We DO NOT want a divorce. Can you see where the triggers come into play and how the meltdowns are practically unavoidable at this point? I need help. Suggestions.

 

[MrSpock]

You say that it starts out with him feeling offended, but I wonder if you are doing something that makes him feel offended. It may not be something that you think gives him a good reason to feel offended, but if in fact that is what happens then that seems a good place to try to prevent it.

You mention a "misunderstanding". Do you both acknowledge these events as misunderstandings? Or is that what one of you calls it, and the other person thinks it should be called something else? Misunderstandings require two people (at least), if you agree that it is a misunderstanding then you should both be able to see the benefit of changing how you communicate a little bit without singling anyone out as being the cause of the misunderstanding, it would simply be a way you can work together to avoid having the misunderstanding together.

 

[Mia]

I've been exactly where you are, as an aspie married to another aspie for thirty plus years. It's much like hitting yourself with a big rock over and over while you bleed out and no one notices the pool of blood on the floor. My suggestion is to stop.

For one week do not criticize, coerce, invalidate, interpret, discuss, argue or object to anything, anytime, anywhere. Absolutely no judgement on your part. Test it out, try it out if it's possible for you. Simply be together, blot out the past for a week. Remember the things that brought you together in the first place and keep reminding yourself of them. Each time you feel a criticism of your spouse about to come out of your mouth, stop it. Let him be, the change in your interactions will be noticeable.

There is no need for you to point out his problems, he's well aware of what they are or might be, as a matter of fact he's probably much more brutal to himself psychologically that you could ever be. Each time you do it, a little bit more of his concept of self is eroded. You destroy him and he attempts to do the same thing in return to you.

Often couples in relationships emulate what they saw with their parents growing up. Without even understanding that they are doing it. As it's the only relationship they have experienced at close quarters.

 

[Lucy521]

You say that it starts out with him feeling offended, but I wonder if you are doing something that makes him feel offended. It may not be something that you think gives him a good reason to feel offended, but if in fact that is what happens then that seems a good place to try to prevent it.

You mention a "misunderstanding". Do you both acknowledge these events as misunderstandings? Or is that what one of you calls it, and the other person thinks it should be called something else? Misunderstandings require two people (at least), if you agree that it is a misunderstanding then you should both be able to see the benefit of changing how you communicate a little bit without singling anyone out as being the cause of the misunderstanding, it would simply be a way you can work together to avoid having the misunderstanding together.

What I refer to as a "misunderstanding" is this... I say something that is not offensive (based on the context of the situation), but because he misinterprets my words by applying them to a painful insecurity of his, it quickly becomes a misunderstanding on his behalf because he can not seem to read into the context of the situation. Instead he applies the notion behind what I'm saying to something that is unrelated and the toxic cycle starts. I am always walking on eggshells with him. He also in incapable of hearing the truth about himself on any level. As long as I think he's great and show him support and kindness, all is rosy in the garden. The minute I try talking about something that could use a deeper look and maybe some adjustment, well... that's typically something I just can't do anymore becasue I can never get through to him. He's SO DEFENSIVE.

 

[Lucy521]

I've been exactly where you are, as an aspie married to another aspie for thirty plus years. It's much like hitting yourself with a big rock over and over while you bleed out and no one notices the pool of blood on the floor. My suggestion is to stop.

For one week do not criticize, coerce, invalidate, interpret, discuss, argue or object to anything, anytime, anywhere. Absolutely no judgement on your part. Test it out, try it out if it's possible for you. Simply be together, blot out the past for a week. Remember the things that brought you together in the first place and keep reminding yourself of them. Each time you feel a criticism of your spouse about to come out of your mouth, stop it. Let him be, the change in your interactions will be noticeable.

There is no need for you to point out his problems, he's well aware of what they are or might be, as a matter of fact he's probably much more brutal to himself psychologically that you could ever be. Each time you do it, a little bit more of his concept of self is eroded. You destroy him and he attempts to do the same thing in return to you.

Often couples in relationships emulate what they saw with their parents growing up. Without even understanding that they are doing it. As it's the only relationship they have experienced at close quarters.

Thank you SO MUCH for this explanation!!! You're absolutely right. He is so hard on himself, in silence. He keeps it all bound up in his heart. I know there's so much pain built up inside of him from his childhood. He was never able to shake it or address it and life keeps dealing him the same situations, only reinforcing his insecurities and lack of self-worth. It makes me sad.

The thing that's difficult for me is... I can never bring anything up that is unhealthy in our marriage, in an attempt to resolve and fix things. I try taking responsibility for my faults, which we discuss openly, but he will never talk about or do anything to change his. 100% denial. So they just continue wreaking havoc on our life. I'll never find peace if I just keep my mouth shut. I'm very calm and kind and soft spoken and loving. I'm not a nag. I need to reach him tho. Do you think he'll start facing his BS if I do what you suggest and focus only on the positive, even when the negative is staring me in the face? I will certainly try. The last thing I want is to destroy his self-worth any more than it has already been damaged in this lifetime.

If there were more balance in our marriage it might be easier, but I do everything. Raise the kids (+3 Aspies), run our 2 businesses, cook, clean, laundry, home maintenance, currently building him a studio, clean out the cars, manage the finances, etc. I'm the one with endless obsessive interests and he has one obsessive interest that he's mastered, but he lacks common sense and that makes it difficult to share our domestic/adult responsibilities. It just turns into hand holding and I find it easier to just do myself, but then the resentment follows. Rock. Hard place.

I'm rambling now. Thank you again for your advice! It means a lot.

 

[MrSpock]

The misunderstanding does not belong to either one of you, it is something you share. One of you has an idea in your head, and tries to transfer that idea to the other person's head, but it does not arrive safely. Safe transfer of an idea requires both of you to cooperate. If he is applying the notion behind what you're saying to something, he obviously feels that it IS related to that other context. If you're going to fix this situation without his active help (and it sounds to me as if this is your intent) then you must accept that he is doing this and take steps to prevent it.

"...it quickly becomes a misunderstanding on his behalf..." sounds like it has nothing to do with you. If it has nothing to do with you, you cannot fix it. If you want to fix it yourself, you must rephrase how you view this in your own mind first.

"...and the toxic cycle starts." Yet your description started well before the part I quote. It seems to me that by the time you acknowledge the 'start' it is already too late. Call the part before that a lead-in, or whatever makes you comfortable, but if it is part of the pattern you might do well to include it as part of what you might potentially change in order to prevent this from happening. What you call the 'start' may even be the end of your opportunity to prevent the meltdowns if you're going to fix this by yourself.

I don't know if you can fix it by yourself, I certainly hope so and wish you the best of luck. Mia seems to have much more (read: some, at least) experience in relationships with two aspies together. Maybe you should ignore what I say and listen to her. But what I say is in response to things that really leap off the page at me, they seem consistent with someone who is anxious to be innocent as opposed to someone who wants to fix it. Maybe you are innocent. Being innocent doesn't fix anything that is already broken.

 

[Lucy521]

The misunderstanding does not belong to either one of you, it is something you share. One of you has an idea in your head, and tries to transfer that idea to the other person's head, but it does not arrive safely. Safe transfer of an idea requires both of you to cooperate. If he is applying the notion behind what you're saying to something, he obviously feels that it IS related to that other context. If you're going to fix this situation without his active help (and it sounds to me as if this is your intent) then you must accept that he is doing this and take steps to prevent it.

"...it quickly becomes a misunderstanding on his behalf..." sounds like it has nothing to do with you. If it has nothing to do with you, you cannot fix it. If you want to fix it yourself, you must rephrase how you view this in your own mind first.

"...and the toxic cycle starts." Yet your description started well before the part I quote. It seems to me that by the time you acknowledge the 'start' it is already too late. Call the part before that a lead-in, or whatever makes you comfortable, but if it is part of the pattern you might do well to include it as part of what you might potentially change in order to prevent this from happening. What you call the 'start' may even be the end of your opportunity to prevent the meltdowns if you're going to fix this by yourself.

I don't know if you can fix it by yourself, I certainly hope so and wish you the best of luck. Mia seems to have much more (read: some, at least) experience in relationships with two aspies together. Maybe you should ignore what I say and listen to her. But what I say is in response to things that really leap off the page at me, they seem consistent with someone who is anxious to be innocent as opposed to someone who wants to fix it. Maybe you are innocent. Being innocent doesn't fix anything that is already broken.

Thank you!! It's helpful to hear new interpretations of what's taking place from an outside perspective. I'm going to spend the week testing out a new theory, based on what you and Mia have shared. We'll see how it goes...

 

[Mia]

If there were more balance in our marriage it might be easier, but I do everything. Raise the kids (+3 Aspies), run our 2 businesses, cook, clean, laundry, home maintenance, currently building him a studio, clean out the cars, manage the finances, etc. I'm the one with endless obsessive interests and he has one obsessive interest that he's mastered, but he lacks common sense and that makes it difficult to share our domestic/adult responsibilities. It just turns into hand holding and I find it easier to just do myself, but then the resentment follows. Rock. Hard place.

I know exactly what you mean by that, as I used to do everything. Renovations, cooking, laundry, shopping, cleaning, most things. This had been a point of contention for us for a long time but, I took it really slow. I was never pushy or demanding about it, but I requested he do one thing on occasion. Until he was used to the idea that he could do it. Often, I think that he felt that he would mess it up in some way, and so was reluctant to.

He's taken on responsibilities, yesterday for the third time in our marriage he did all the grocery shopping by himself, he rarely goes into stores of any kind. This, will become his job eventually, as long as I make a very clear list. He does the dishes, some reno's, and if I ask him to help me out with something in an easy way he will do it. He will vacuum if I ask him to. He will shovel snow unasked. This has taken many years; it can be very frustrating and make or break a marriage, and cause all sorts of strife. There's more at work here than being aspies, male and female roles can be stereo-typically played out, especially if his own mother did all the cooking and cleaning. To him, that would be what he expected in a marriage, even if he says the opposite. His actions are what should be paid attention to, not his words. But again, don't judge or criticize, accept anything he has to offer.

At this point, expect less and hope for more, lower your high standards, at times that is a function of control and of ego. Surprisingly it will happen if done in the right way. Asking for help is the important part here, one thing at a time, and ignoring if it's badly done, not criticizing the effort in any way. Thanking him for his help, will eventually lead to more help with some encouragement. Things will improve, give them time, it won't happen right away.

 

[Suzanne]

I am married to an NT and it is not funny how I could be reading about us!

I decided that for once, instead of talking about it, I would do something about it and so, discussed it openly with my husband: I am going to tape us having an argument or about to and it the purpose is not to shame either of us, but to listen and to discuss areas we can work on and he was ok with that. Well, we started out having a conversation about my meltdowns; he does not get them and considers I can control them and does not see why I cannot and it ended in an argument, with me trying to defend myself against his barrage of words; well I taped it all and now need to courage for him to listen.

What did surprise me was the HOW little I interrupted. I know I do and try to work on it, but what I detected was, yes, my voice was raised and his was not, but I was frustrated and not angry. Now, he is not an apsie, but does react like your husband.

We had what we refer to as a "shepherding call". Two elders ( priests) come to visit to encourage and help us with scriptural guidence and one suggest was to only think about the positive traits; because I do have a dreadful tendency to hate the entire person and yes, I can go from absolutely loving him, to absolutely hating the very ground he walks on; however, he has the ability to hate traits of me and likes to say that depite his anger against me, he still loves me; I cannot say the same thing back.

We have been marrried for 25 year's, but like you and your husband, we do not see divorce as an option.

My husband has said sorry, but then again, that is because I cry out to my God to help me.

 

[Lucy521]

Suzanne, we tried that before... recording our conversations and listening back. I also noticed that I was rarely the one to cut him off, even tho he'd convinced me otherwise over the last few years. I actually started questioning my own eyes and ears and eventually felt like I was going crazy. When we'd listen back it was him who was cutting me off most often and he doesn't listen to understand, but rather he listens to retaliate and cuts me off the minute I make a valid point.

Things took an irritating turn when he started composing himself before he brought up a sensitive subject, knowing that I would likely have my own point of view and get frustrated/upset when he refused to find a middle road... and he wouldn't tell me that he was recording the "conversation". He tried using these against me. He's hyper focused on "winning" and placing the blame entirely on me. It was very manipulative, but even then when we'd listen back, he was still the one acting irrationally and unable to hear logic when it opposed his rigid point of view. That backfired, so he stopped doing it.

You know, it's so sad. Watching humans suffer from childhood trauma. Something that happened so long ago, but literally controls every thought and action. His insecurity and defensiveness is so extreme most days, it only makes the Asperger's traits more difficult to navigate. I want to console him in these moments, but it's almost impossible. It's like he has an iron wall built up around him and nothing can get in other than words or gestures that validate his insecurities and that's just enabling him to remain in a contracted state of existence. It's not helping anyone. Right now, I'm at a loss.

So, I've decided to let go of "getting through" to him. Instead I'll just discuss things that are unrelated to him in any way. If he brings something up, I will give him what he needs, which is typically a validation of his mindset. If I don't agree, I will still listen and acknowledge how hard it must be to feel the way he does. I'm curious to see how that will impact the number of fights he picks or how often he feels his insecurities triggered.

This is where I ask myself... if I'm always just allowing him to remain rooted in a false (but safe) reality, I'll be going against the grain of who I am. Everything about me stands for growth, deeper understanding, rising above limiting tendencies, etc. That's what we both agreed we wanted and would strive for when we first met, right up until the point that we got married. I want a marriage partner who grows with me, not one who refuses to acknowledge his BS and just blames/projects it on me. I can't support that. What would a good therapist recommend? I have a feeling I'll end up working on myself and hopefully in leading by example, I'll see him open up more and more to self-help.

 

[Mia]

I have a feeling I'll end up working on myself and hopefully in leading by example, I'll see him open up more and more to self-help.

You got it, that's highly likely and similar to the way things have worked for us. You understand much more that most people can about these relationships.

 

[Lucy521]

You got it, that's highly likely and similar to the way things have worked for us. You understand much more that most people can about these relationships.

Thank you for your reassurance. It helps so much having someone understand my experience, my fears, my frustration, etc. I haven't found that anywhere before. Not even in therapy. So, again... thank you. <3

 

[Kirsty]

I agree. Mia has helped me a lot too regarding family issues. <3

 

[Warmheart]

I don't know if this is your husband, but many on the spectrum have strong "black and white thinking"--- everything is either all good, or all bad.
So...
Being given negative feedback is a skill for anybody to master with maturity, but For many with ASD, handling feedback is a huge challenge!
This is because if something we DO gets criticized, we imagine that the other person is saying that we ourselves are bad--at our very core.

I'm not sure if this is his perspective, but the black and white thinking, as of relates to learning to handle feedback appropriately, might be something to bring up with your ASD specialist.

Best success!

 

[Sabrina]

Hi, I'm new and just read this forum thread. You guys cannot imagine how happy I am just to see that there's actually other aspie-aspie relationships. Most of what I find in the web is about NT-Aspies.
I would like to share some thoughts:
I've read, I don't know how many books on relationships, but apparently I'm reading one that is actually going to change the relationship with my husband, or at least improve it. It's called "Women who love too much" by Robin Norwood. It says: Do not help him (your husband) or give him advice; do not solve his problems, do not encourage him, do not praise him, don't save him from any pain.
Why? According to the author, we do all that in order to manage and control him. That was a very hard pill to swallow, but it's true. Since I know his social and functional skills are not, errr, well, they're Aspie-level, what can I say, mmm not "good enough" , I'm always terrorized that he's going to make a huge mistake with whatever. So he's usually only responsible about his job and I usually have the responsibility of everything else. The thing is ... I'm Aspie too! I have my own set of challenges and for me is a struggle everything socially or functionally related. So having to deal with the daily "maintenance" of me, him and my two kids (I believe they're aspies too) I feel exhausted and frustrated.
I'm trying this new approach (sort of let him live his life/ I don't care if ... fill in the blank with anything from missing his doctor's appointment to screwing up his relationship with his kids) now and it's so hard.
But, it's also a relief: he's an adult! Not my responsability! Yoohoo!
But then again, it's so hard.
Let's see what happens, because I'm sooo tired of his extreme anger and my futile frustration. I have my fingers crossed.

One more thing: somethings cannot be changed, he's not going to become Mr. I -remember everything -and -I -notice -when something -has -to -be done, etc, overnight, nor I hope he's going to change like that. I'm just aiming to reduce his anger and my frustration.It helps that a few years ago we became minimalists, so we've reduced the saily struggle of maintenance of a home: mowing a lawn? No thank you; Organizing endless junk? No thank you. I've supersimplified our home (we live at an apartment now)and even the kids are on board this, and they willingly give away the toys that they don't use. Our wardrobe is minimal too. I just tremble at the thought of a big house with all those responsibilities that come with it.

 

[Mia]

I'm always terrorized that he's going to make a huge mistake with whatever. So he's usually only responsible about his job and I usually have the responsibility of everything else. The thing is ... I'm Aspie too! I have my own set of challenges and for me is a struggle everything socially or functionally related.

Same here, it often occurs to me that these sorts of difficulties are not things my spouse notices. He thinks about himself first. Something that was difficult to get a handle on for years. I think about both of us to a certain extent. In that I consider him in most decisions. It's not that he doesn't want to think about us a couple. He has to be reminded most often that he should think about other people.

It sounds like you have a handle on things in your relationship. I've read many of these aspie relationship books as well. Many of them seems to be about how to get your Aspie spouse to act more like an N/T. This is not something that works at all, they can mask and pretend but it's not who they are. The problem I see with the not helping your spouse, is that it causes a lot of difficulties in the relationship. Then it ends up not being a relationship, there has to be some common ground that brings the two of you together. It does get better, as long as you give clear signals about what is needed.

 

[Sabrina]

Same here, it often occurs to me that these sorts of difficulties are not things my spouse notices. He thinks about himself first. Something that was difficult to get a handle on for years. I think about both of us to a certain extent. In that I consider him in most decisions. It's not that he doesn't want to think about us a couple. He has to be reminded most often that he should think about other people.

It sounds like you have a handle on things in your relationship. I've read many of these aspie relationship books as well. Many of them seems to be about how to get your Aspie spouse to act more like an N/T. This is not something that works at all, they can mask and pretend but it's not who they are. The problem I see with the not helping your spouse, is that it causes a lot of difficulties in the relationship. Then it ends up not being a relationship, there has to be some common ground that brings the two of you together. It does get better, as long as you give clear signals about what is needed.

 

[Sabrina]

Exactly I'm afraid we're going to end up in the same house, only interacting the minimum necessary (like my parents, my worst fear). I , too, always think of us as a couple, about our best interest, but I feel he only thinks of his best interest. I'm trying this new approach of thinking of my best interest, not ours (which sometimes actually is his best interest). Anyway, I've tried practically everything else and this time is different because it's the opposite: I stopped trying.
I don't know if it will work, but at least I redirect my love to me, so I don't feel like my love is going down the drain. It's more like recirculating my love from me to me.
Feels lonely, though.

 

[Mia]

There are many moments where there is love between us. For my spouse it's a 'fait accompli',
there is no longer a need to show it. For me there is a need to know I am cared about. It's not the conventional way, nor a superficial one, it's little things he does. That show it. Perhaps you have to look for those. And you're right, caring for yourself means that you are enough and anything that happens outside of that is good. Almost like re-confirmation of who you are.

 

[Sabrina]

Yes, , more focus on what he does is a good idea. Thank you