Christians, can we talk?

[Wolfsage]

Wolfsage - touche

I'll add this. Read the Bible and keep your mind open. Their are certain ly things to be learned from. This one from Isiah is most interesting.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
I get excited when he does things like this. Trying to understand the science behind it.

 

[Wolfsage]

Home Sapiens evolved maybe 100-200k years ago. Our species strength is social, and our brains for communication. We get lonely because your brain wants you with people. Bear don't get lonely. There adapted to that, we adapted to something else. Best way to put it, no fur, no fangs, no antlers, no claws, we are tasty little treats. You need other people with spears, like maybe you should hurry.

Well no fur in this life anyway.
I'm not so sure communication is a human strength. Getting people to listen, understand, and then act is trail of patience and wit.
Unless their power hungry and willfully ignorant then even that fails.

 

[Greatshield17]

A waste of time is harsh, what I mean is no forward motion. Spirituality is not in your head. It is a felt sense and flows through your being putting you at peace. It connects you with the everything and calms your emotions. Saying it is irrational is crazy, as if anyone does anything rational. If I don't chose to want vanilla ice cream, then is getting vanilla ice cream freedom? if I destroy the quality of my life by staying in my head and never feeling or loving anyone, is that somehow a victory? Just the nutty stuff we tell ourselves, that somehow we are rational and choosing. Then stop wanting a relationship. I can't.

Can you please expand on this here, and explain what you mean by the words "rational" and "freedom" in this?

What I'm thinking about, is logos or the order or reason of the universe; it's not just a Christian thing, a lot of cultures came across this belief or idea; the very word logos came from the Greeks, albeit it enter Sacred Scriptures through the Gnostics who, in turn borrowed it from a Greek magic cult as it had long-since fallen out of favour among the mainstream Greek philosophers. The idea of Logos was known as rta among the Hindus, and the Mesoamericans used a four-petaled flower to represent their understanding of it. (it appears on the womb of Our Lady of Guadalupe.) Back in 2019, I attended Live-in at my regional seminary to discern if I had a calling to the Priesthood, while there one of the seminarians told me that the Chinese concept of the Mandate of Heaven was also based off of an understanding of logos.

 

[William Weiler]

Autism has survival value no doubt, or it would not be prevalent. Sickle cell anemia distorts red blood cells and you can't get Malaria, but it cripples you.

This is sad, but you don't evolve to be happy, or even survive that long. Long enough to have offspring that survive to have offspring. Bar is pretty low. Why did he die? Because the arteries in his heart were blocked, and it caused necropsy in 40% of his heart. Pretty cold. But face it, that is why he died.

 

[William Weiler]

CatholicNerd - man I'm sorry, I don't know any of that stuff. Like wimping out but also this is kind of hard without your background. My best friend once was a philosophy professor. His favorite thing was to read in latin. He told me the original greek of the bible was necessary, but I wasn't motivated.

My communication is for ideas and feelings that calm, teach and soothe others. Not academic, maybe even using the wrong word and bad grammer to get my point across. I look out for my English professor's cell phone aiming for my head.

 

[Greatshield17]

CatholicNerd - man I'm sorry, I don't know any of that stuff. Like wimping out but also this is kind of hard without your background. My best friend once was a philosophy professor. His favorite thing was to read in latin. He told me the original greek of the bible was necessary, but I wasn't motivated.

Well, do you have any simple thoughts about there being some kind of order to the universe?

 

[William Weiler]

Not God or anything. Just whatever science knows or more accurately, what I have time to read and can understand. So reason, or intelligence, or a plan. Why does math exist and why does it explain the universe so well? Why does the equation for dampened spring also describe a oscillating circuit? It is a homo sapien invention. I could spend the next week on the word reason and what it means, and still not have it nailed down. There is definitely order. Determinism? I end up pretty much not that far from where I was. Does the behavior of other people make sense - yes, 100%.

Man, simple thought on the order of the Universe. Then I leave philosophy and go to string theory. Gahh, why can't I do this simple thing!

 

[William Weiler]

I have been doing multiple threads on this forum, for what - I will not look at the clock or do the math! I have to go.

 

[The Pandector]

It all seems so perfectly abstract and subjective. There is one thing that I do believe is perfectly objective and concrete. The written word of God.

I guess, if we have to philosophize over it, it comes down to whether you believe in objective truth. I do. But the truth is established and maintained completely independently of my belief. It's sobering in these whacky times to remember that the truth is just what it is, and is just that even if the whole world sincerely believes otherwise.

Sure, we'll hear about how different people believe the Bible teaches different things. That doesn't discredit the Bible, it tarnishes the reputation of human understanding. For example... Honest scientists openly dispute divergent theories of the nature of the universe. That doesn't in the slightest affect the actual nature of the universe.

Jesus believed in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture. So do I. I'm a wreck and I desperately need a solid foundation. I am so glad that God foresaw that and provided it to us. Well... to those of us who believe.

 

[William Weiler]

This is kind of off topic. but it seems like this weird collective denial. I mention my beliefs and someone says they are wrong, and I should believe his. But, someone else says I am a fool for believing at all and I should believe what he does. I can say this, a real atheist is joy. A pleasant person to talk things over with, because he is willing, believe it or not, to help me deepen my beliefs. And I give him things to think about. Like someone tries to spring a logical trap on you to kill your faith. That is in the bible! They try and get Jesus with the it, I forget, something about who is whos wife.

Once I said something obvious to someone. Homosexuality does not drive people from the Church, Christian hypocrisy does. He says your right! I never thought of that! WTH ????????

 

[gaffaglow]

As a person on the Autistic spectrum, who is also Catholic, and also believes in science, I feel very alone a lot of the time.

 

[Greatshield17]

It all seems so perfectly abstract and subjective. There is one thing that I do believe is perfectly objective and concrete. The written word of God.

I guess, if we have to philosophize over it, it comes down to whether you believe in objective truth. I do. But the truth is established and maintained completely independently of my belief. It's sobering in these whacky times to remember that the truth is just what it is, and is just that even if the whole world sincerely believes otherwise.

Sure, we'll hear about how different people believe the Bible teaches different things. That doesn't discredit the Bible, it tarnishes the reputation of human understanding. For example... Honest scientists openly dispute divergent theories of the nature of the universe. That doesn't in the slightest affect the actual nature of the universe.

Jesus believed in the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture. So do I. I'm a wreck and I desperately need a solid foundation. I am so glad that God foresaw that and provided it to us. Well... to those of us who believe.

Yeah philosophy does play a huge role in things, both in believing and identifying objective truth, and reading the Bible correctly; yes one does need to rely on philosophy in order to interpret the Bible otherwise you won't know what God is saying in it. For example, there are passages in Sacred Scripture that imply that God, in the Old Testament has physical body, is that true? Or is it just metaphorical? One needs to rely on philosophy in order interpret these passages correctly.

 

[Greatshield17]

As a person on the Autistic spectrum, who is also Catholic, and also believes in science, I feel very alone a lot of the time.

I mentioned in another thread that I want to start an Apostolate dedicated to helping Autistic people get together and help each other out. (My idea for an Autistic Apostolate) Making that idea is much harder, especially with the whole Covid thing out there today.

 

[William Weiler]

lolcatal - I have an idea. Belief and faith are precious, but fragile. A crisis of faith is normal. Like that was what Daredevil was about. You get hurt and lose your faith, then slowly get it back. Someone will then likely try and control it, to keep it, or secure it. We like to remake the world in our own image, so you have to believe as I do. or I want to put, or inject myself into the sermon, or Christ message, or my ministry. Re-make it we me in it, my stamp.

The old and new testament are historical. They are stuck in that time. Nothing about the future. What did people think back then? No science, no medicine, no fire department, no cellphones, no supermarket, basically no knowledge, and very primitive morality. All the stories reflect the people at the time they were written. Nazareth was a city of a 100 people. No one could afford a sword or a shield. If someone wanted to kill you out of envy, they could do it, and maybe get away with it. Maybe this was considered normal, something that happens now and then. Women and children were considering property. the idea of loving your wife or husband would happen 1600 years later. (remember Topol struggling with this idea in Fiddler on the Roof?)

The last one is painful. A literal interruption of the religious text, or fundamentalism. This is for control. Nothing to do with religion. It is a hijacking. It creeped into society as a punishing God. Most Christians are non-dogmatic, yet the impression is they are not. It is the sensationalism of the news that does this. News is a business. If you want articles on non-dogmatic Christians you have to click on them. Otherwise you won't get them.

 

[Greatshield17]

This is kind of off topic. but it seems like this weird collective denial. I mention my beliefs and someone says they are wrong, and I should believe his. But, someone else says I am a fool for believing at all and I should believe what he does. I can say this, a real atheist is joy. A pleasant person to talk things over with, because he is willing, believe it or not, to help me deepen my beliefs. And I give him things to think about. Like someone tries to spring a logical trap on you to kill your faith. That is in the bible! They try and get Jesus with the it, I forget, something about who is whos wife.

Once I said something obvious to someone. Homosexuality does not drive people from the Church, Christian hypocrisy does. He says your right! I never thought of that! WTH ????????

Well that's true of a lot of people, you never know how people are going to react when you both have different beliefs and world views. (especially when you're Autistic and unconsciously assume that everyone is as smart as you are.) Sometimes debating with others does indeed sharpen your views and give you a better understanding of your own beliefs, sometimes debates leave you feeling angry and wanting to double-down and just hate the other person's point of view, sometimes you're just left outright confused over what was said and not sure what will happen next after this.

Dealing with beliefs and views is relatively easy I think, dealing with people is much more tricky, I'm pretty sure even for an NT unless they're really skilled socializing.

 

[William Weiler]

Kind of like this. If I get angry, I stop. Your likely not having a discussion. Ask this, did they insult you? "Anyone who doesn't believe this is a fool." (Ugh, I said I don't). "That is a dumb idea!" Socially skillful people try and hurt you, then spin you around so you don't realize it. Then trust your feelings, 100%. If you are hurt, they hurt you, and get out of there. Never ever press when meeting resistance, or take the bait. Leave. Stay out of bars. There is no quality in there. A true atheist is a joy. But really, really hard to find.

Hate is not an opinion either. Their social life is you trying to convince them and them fighting you back. When you become completely exhausted, they won the argument.

 

[Greatshield17]

lolcatal - I have an idea. Belief and faith are precious, but fragile. A crisis of faith is normal. Like that was what Daredevil was about. You get hurt and lose your faith, then slowly get it back. Someone will then likely try and control it, to keep it, or secure it. We like to remake the world in our own image, so you have to believe as I do. or I want to put, or inject myself into the sermon, or Christ message, or my ministry. Re-make it we me in it, my stamp.

The old and new testament are historical. They are stuck in that time. Nothing about the future. What did people think back then? No science, no medicine, no fire department, no cellphones, no supermarket, basically no knowledge, and very primitive morality. All the stories reflect the people at the time they were written. Nazareth was a city of a 100 people. No one could afford a sword or a shield. If someone wanted to kill you out of envy, they could do it, and maybe get away with it. Maybe this was considered normal, something that happens now and then. Women and children were considering property. the idea of loving your wife or husband would happen 1600 years later. (remember Topol struggling with this idea in Fiddler on the Roof?)

The last one is painful. A literal interruption of the religious text, or fundamentalism. This is for control. Nothing to do with religion. It is a hijacking. It creeped into society as a punishing God. Most Christians are non-dogmatic, yet the impression is they are not. It is the sensationalism of the news that does this. News is a business. If you want articles on non-dogmatic Christians you have to click on them. Otherwise you won't get them.

Catholics (and the Eastern Orthodox) read the Bible differently than Protestants do. Yes, both Catholics and Protestants recognize the Bible to be an historical account of what was happening in the Levant, but Catholics consider the Bible, not just to be a book of moral and religious instruction, but something you immerse yourself in, and live as a continuation of the drama in the Bible. The Exodus was a historical event, but we Catholics don't just consider the Exodus to be a story of how we got the Ten Commandments but an understanding of we Catholics should understand our own lives, namely that we are on our own Exodus, an Exodus from the Spiritual Egypt (Slavery to sin) to the True Promised Land. (Heaven)

The Bible is very different to a Catholic than it is to a Protestant:

 

[Wolfsage]

The old and new testament are historical.

Partial true. Prophecy does not fall into that category.

They are stuck in that time.

No. Their still relevant now and will be into the future.

 

[Wolfsage]

The last one is painful.

Do you mean the book of Revelations?

 

[Wolfsage]

Yeah philosophy does play a huge role in things, both in believing and identifying objective truth, and reading the Bible correctly; yes one does need to rely on philosophy in order to interpret the Bible otherwise you won't know what God is saying in it. For example, there are passages in Sacred Scripture that imply that God, in the Old Testament has physical body, is that true? Or is it just metaphorical? One needs to rely on philosophy in order interpret these passages correctly.

Well I think philosophy plays a part. But, if you were to have faith like little children. Wouldn't that mean you interpret the Bible as it is written?