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Confused and helpless and in need of advice

asking very formally for a business appointment/coffee (I didn't want to be forward and ask for a date, since I didn't know if that was really what he meant). He instantly replied and organised it for the next day. Then he was all clammed up. I'd said I wanted to talk about work and we talked about...work.

It is possible that I'm projecting my own personal history on to this, and that my reading is completely inaccurate, but if I were in this kind of situation, I might act like what you have described.

I don't understand what the difference is between a "date," a meeting with a coworker, or casually getting a coffee with a friend, or how one would know whether the person is just a friend or is interested. When an interaction involves some kind of unwritten social rule that would be impossible for someone not to know, it is likely that I don't know it. :)

It's possible that you framed the meeting around work after he suggested something that he intended to be more casual, and he didn't know how to say what he wanted to say. For me, ASD comes with a lot of self-doubt, because of too many past mistakes. It can cause a person to be extremely reserved in ambiguous situations.

After the coffee he took me somewhere else to show me around his city and he was more relaxed and all happy and at that point he was repeatedly asking me questions about my future and really pressing me as to where I was going to live once I finished with my current post, asking if I might not move to continental Europe (where he is now) for a new post...

It might be easier to speak while walking, because it reduces the pressure of expected eye contact, and provides external props to keep the conversation going. Also, the "business" meeting was over at that point, and the purpose might have become unambiguous -- he was simply hanging out with you.

I don't know how he is phrasing it ("really pressing me as to where I was going to live"), but his asking you if you're going to move to his city sounds like he might be interested.
 
First of all, sorry to double-post, but I thought I should stop endlessly editing the last one. I know my input into this thread must look very messy, and, erm, "confused and helpless." You've all been wonderful and I really appreciate your time and advice.

I think Wyverary is right in reading lack of interest from much of what I wrote, especially the information in the post where I tried to explain my reasons for acting as I did. I saw black after analysing the coffee and everything else in terms of the apparent girlfriend, and rationalised away everything that had happened that suggested he wanted to build something up. But as 113 points out he could have been misreading my signals.

Fwiw, I think you could be totally right in reading interest, even from what I read prior to this post. It really depends on what kinda guy you're dealing with and what we haven't seen or can't be conveyed through a forum post (which is already filtered through your perception). Reminds me of a guy I was with, tbh...hope I'm not reading that into what you wrote. But he just seems a bit shy and socially awkward and missing all the cues, which doesn't mean lack of interest.

He said we should figure out a time online. I waited for days for him to start to organise it, but he didn't. Eventually I sent him a ridiculous email asking very formally for a business appointment/coffee (I didn't want to be forward and ask for a date, since I didn't know if that was really what he meant). He instantly replied and we organised it for the next day. Then he was all clammed up.

Yeah, do take initiative if you want to go for this. He probably said "we" should figure out the time, hoping you would go ahead and take the initiative because a) he has no idea how and/or b) he's afraid you'd want to back out. I often say 'we' when I really mean 'you'...bad habit.

I'd said I wanted to talk about work and we talked about...work. At one point he did try to tell me some things about his travels but he talked so fast I couldn't understand him and he sort of stopped himself and got silent again.

Um, yeah, that guy I mentioned? All we ever talk about is work, and life. FOR HOURS. I've found that if I play along, after awhile he loosens up enough to, say, let something slip about a personal failure or family worry...and then finally after a couple years he admits he wants more, after I've given up and started dating someone else. :persevere: Work is a safe topic. It allows for practical conversation that passes for small talk among typical people. If one is scared of opening up, work is a natural thing to talk about, even if you hadn't dictated it as the purpose of your meet-up.

After the coffee he took me somewhere else to show me around his city and he was more relaxed/confident and at that point he was repeatedly asking me questions about my future and really pressing me as to where I was going to live once I finished with my current post, asking if I might not move to Europe (where he is now) for a new post...

Aw, yeah, that reminds me of aforementioned guy too. He was planning on moving to another country, and when he went there for interviews, he called me and told me about all the things he had researched for me--programs of study, places I could see the birds, etc. It was adorable. I don't think you're reading him wrong.

The problem with my guy, is I can read his signals better than he can read himself! One time I saw him smile and be more touchy-feely than normal when I came back from being away for a week, and I was like, "Oh, you missed me!" and he replied, "Huh...yeah, I guess I did." Actually, that is pretty good, for him--at least he admitted it when it was pointed out to him. Other times, he might deny showing any interest at all...like coming back to my room just to "see the room" and swearing by this, or insisting that whatever I wanted he was fine with and claiming to have no wants or desires of his own. I'm struggling to come up with concrete examples that aren't embarrassingly personal, but really, a better question would be when was he aware of his own feelings.

Sorry to get on a tangent, but: Be prepared for lack of emotional awareness. It is an aspie trait. And like Nadador mentioned, be prepared to get shut out entirely. For days, months, even years.

his ignoring thing only got nasty after he saw me with another guy at a concert. After that, not only did he not speak to me, but the moment I'd come into a room he'd glare at me and make a big thing of going over and talking to the closest girl he could find. Maybe I've misjudged everything, but I don't think he would do that if his feelings were strictly platonic.

Hm, that does seem to indicate interest (provided your interpretation of his actions is correct), but it is a somewhat worryingly possessive behavior that I'd keep an eye on if I were you.

At the end of the day, something Aspergirl said was very true. There is still a part of me that desperately wants something from him, and it isn't right that my apology should be mixed up with that. Those of you who propose that we're not right for each other as things stand are totally correct. But I used to be a strong person with a sunny disposition and - now that things are winding down with my work stress - I intend to regain that. Nadador - you didn't rain on my (very puny!) parade, I really appreciate your posts. Reality checks are good.

It takes a strong person to admit what you just did, so I think you're on your way there. Although A4H and Nadador are smart cookies--you should listen to them. ;) I'm all about love and undying optimism, but I think reality checks are considerably more helpful.
 
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Saskia Priya,

On rereading my comment, my words feel unkind to me now, and I want to apologise for them. I meant to be helpful, not hurtful. I already know that my IQ/logic brain runs way ahead of the emotional IQ and I don't always notice just how wide the gap is. If I had been that vulnerable online and read my words I would still be hiding under the bed. (You have more courage, I notice.)

I have not been at ease with myself for several days and yesterday's sermon in church socked it to me.

I am very sorry to have written harshly and I will strive to be mindful in future, not just of you but of others.

Hoping that this gets past the ignore filter that I earned by my ill grace, I remain,

A4H.
 
Oh I almost teared up reading these posts. A4H, you have absolutely nothing to apologise for. Your words felt a little astringent when I first read them, but by the second and third readings I could see that they were nothing if not well-intentioned...and that they were also very wise. Some things just can't be sugarcoated - I appreciate your honesty. There is nothing remotely unkind about your post - I can only hope I didn't sound offended! Because I wasn't, not at any stage. The fact that you're apologising for something that requires no apology just goes to show how lovely a person you are... :) :tulip:

Royinpink, thanks for your support. It's good to see yet another angle on the whole thing, though I'm starting to feel rather selfish for taking up people's time like this! At the moment I just think it was all just very unfortunate - but mainly caused by my own overemotional nature. *sigh* And complete miscommunication that was largely also down to me.
Your guy sounds so cute...and I agree, they do seem to be similar. Of course, in your case he actually did have time to develop deeper feelings.

I think you're right about him being scared to open up. The thing is, because I was so completely terrified myself, I had not a clue about how to make him feel comfortable, so if he was already a bit anxious - actually it looked as if he'd barely slept - I must have made it worse with my slightly frosty attitude. (I don't "date" - it's been almost ten years since I've been in a relationship because, well, I don't see the point of disrupting my high-stakes career unless there's a real connection - so I probably wouldn't have known how to act naturally even if it hadn't been mixed up with work! :emojiconfused: )

I've found that if I play along, after awhile he loosens up enough to, say, let something slip about a personal failure or family worry...

If I'm remembering it right, he started trying to tell me about himself about 45 minutes into the...coffee appointment. But by then I was convinced he didn't really want to talk to me as a person at all, and I barely understood him anyway. Just as he thought I didn't want his serviette, he seemed to think I didn't want to hear, so he closed himself up again. *sigh*

It's possible that you framed the meeting around work after he suggested something that he intended to be more casual, and he didn't know how to say what he wanted to say. For me, ASD comes with a lot of self-doubt, because of too many past mistakes. It can cause a person to be extremely reserved in ambiguous situations.

Even without ASD I'm like that. Especially without dating experience. :nomouth: I never really doubted his interest until I arrived to talk to him at the coffee, but I didn't want to push/force it... The work thing...I do think he probably meant something more casual. I guess I (my ego) was hurt even before the girlfriend business, because I felt as if I were wearing a flashing neon sign that read "I AM CRAZY ABOUT YOU" and he just sat there looking extremely uncomfortable. I read that as a complete rejection.

But of course there was no sign, there was no girlfriend - all our problems were caused by me acting like an insecure, spoilt teenager.
(I'm in my mid twenties, he's in his mid-late twenties.)
As to what happens next, who knows. I guess time will tell. I really, truly appreciate everybody's input, because it lets me see everything much more clearly and objectively. And hopefully to apologise gracefully in a way that doesn't embarrass him! I'll be showing my interest and not behaving like a ice princess from now on. In the end, if it's meant to be it'll happen. If not, I'll always be there for him as a friend. From now on I'm vulnerable and open, whatever the case, without hoping for anything.

And now I think I'm probably embarrassed enough to creep away and never show my face here again. It feels indecent, somehow, putting it all out there like this. But I think it was important. Thank you all again...your opinions and advice mean so much to me, more than you can imagine. :) I wish you all well!
 
And now I think I'm probably embarrassed enough to creep away and never show my face here again. It feels indecent, somehow, putting it all out there like this. But I think it was important. Thank you all again...your opinions and advice mean so much to me, more than you can imagine. :) I wish you all well!

Please don't feel you have to stay away! If it does work out, you may find yourself in need of advice somewhere down the line, and we are always here for you. Don't worry, we all have embarrassing, personal stories. :) You may even be able to help someone else who finds herself in your place.

So don't be afraid to return, ever.
 
I am going to respond to the original post now. Because there a lot of others. And I recognize the situation.

Shock, well in my case. When everything to seems to go very well.....and somebody reacts completely unexpected....I am...or least was in shock. (my case the most horrible of shock :p).

I would email...if he is Aspie, because it gives him the ability prepare. Or that would at least be vital for me. I can read an email. But right in the moment, I might react like you. In fact, I would even go as for as ...establish the situation in email before facing in real. Because when something unexpected happens, the other might be be more confident and able to deal with it. Like give you more time, or support you even. In my case, text is on your side.

If I would apologies about befriending. I would first bring it as a joke...what was I thinking, sorry! To set a positive mood first. Only when he is interested and him being Aspie I might go into details. (Neurotypical, well details are much less important). But then, that is based on me.

For me, sending emails would not be sufficient. I would assume they where for another reason, like work or friendship. For me, you would have to spell it out.

How to show. In my case. Tell it. You can't show to me. You can only Tell. By now I can more or less still only tell, if I am on the hunt :(. As in spending 90% of my brain, to look for clues.

Would I make a move. Well there might be a bit cold water fear. But I would absolutely want to know. And I would very much be interested to see where my feelings would go. In fact, it is exactly what happened recently to me. But, I have a bit. I don't know for sure (as in educated guess), whether she would not consider me as a boyfriend because she wouldn't, or because she practically married with kids :p. She is saying the first. But she did it on the same way that later I found out, you only said that because you didn't want to say outright what you where really thinking.
He, I have been chasing her for 19 years :p. If I would like you, yeah I would. Though I will hesitate the moment I sense a problem. That was true for all of them, not just her. Problem as in not a good time, I don't like (anymore), whatever :p.

But I suspect you guys like each other. And the only thing that makes it not work are the constant miscommunications. By now, you are BOTH must be so afraid to open up anymore. And in my experience, that can only be solved by text. But suspect is not the same as know! But if you are worried, you can always remember Rachels statement from friends, something about it is always nice to hear that someone loves you. (even though she couldn't return the feeling at the time). If you can take the negative answer, don't hesitate. By the way negative does not necessary mean Actual negative, can also mean cold water fear. BUT, it not necessary means it is is cold water as well.

This opinion is specifically based on the idea that he might be an Aspie, and might have the same problems I would have had. Because if he was a Neurotypical, and I was a woman. I would do it differently.
 
I'd just like to point out that looking like Mel Gibson doesn't make you Mel Gibson, nor does it guarrantee a Mel Gibson personality.

Similarly, just because someone sends you an email, it doesn't mean that they are interested in you. Why would anyone assume that, NT or not?

I'd never make a move on anyone who had demonstrated that they were untrustworthy, and I take rejection completely literally so I would never chase anyone either.

Now to the bluntness. It's not often NTs are so open about their LARPing, but if you want any kind of meaningful personal relationship with an aspie you can't play those frankly idiotic social games. Get honest, or if you feel too vulnerable being straight, leave the poor man alone.

About the similarly. This I found out to my great shock. That is Exactly what a lot of NT do! And they don't understand my I am not getting it. That was a big eye opener for me. (not all NT I suppose), but adding up the numbers, almost all of them :P.
 
Wow - thank you all so much for your input, I appreciate it more than I can possibly say. I never expected so many people to pitch in!

I'll try to clarify things and answer some of your well-pointed-out concerns.

The first thing I should note is that maybe it sounded, from my summary, as if I was closer to him than I really was. To all extents and purposes we were only ever colleagues, not even friends, and despite the long-drawn-out timeframe, we spent relatively little time interacting in real life or online. The unfriending thing must have sounded callous, but I did genuinely think at first that he wouldn't even notice I was gone.

As to the reasons - I had been chasing him quite obviously, I thought, though I always hid behind work excuses; there was some bluntness from him, and I honestly thought he was trying to push me away. (Which may still be true, but I doubt it.) I was hurt by a number of things - my hints dropping like dead stones, repeatedly...and it all built up to the point I just decided he was trying to not-so-gently warn me off. We had a casual coffee - our first time alone together - and he did all the things guys who aren't interested do...he clammed up, seemed most interested in looking at his feet, barely asked any personal questions...I thought he was either supernaturally shy, which didn't make sense given the fact that he could be quite talkative with other people...or that he was trying to let me know he didn't see me like that. And that he didn't even want to be friends.

And then I was (mis)informed by a(n un)reliable source with the big news that he actually had a girlfriend, so I thought that all made sense, and I just...

I reached the end of my rope. I thought that if he wasn't interested in me as a girl or even, apparently, as a person, he didn't need to have me on Facebook, and in fact that if he did by some miracle notice I was gone, it would be a good thing, because at least he'd know I respected his privacy and wouldn't be bothering him again, ever.

And then this colleague of mine, who I thought wanted to maintain a professional distance, started to ignore me when he saw me - for my part I avoided him out of embarrassment - and it escalated to the point where he'd talk to the person I was with as if I wasn't there at all. Yes, I should have tried to talk to him, but my embarrassment turned to hurt and then to anger and confusion. There was such tension that we needed an argument to clear it up. But you can't argue with someone who isn't talking to you, and when we finally did talk...well, I thought it was very noble of him to say goodbye after all that. Sadly I was too shocked that he was talking to me again to say anything useful. I mechanically returned his well wishes and answered his questions, and then as he left I thanked him once more for everything he had done for me.

I think I cried for two hours straight after I got back to the conference accommodation. On the train to the airport the next day I had to wear dark glasses to hide the tears that just wouldn't go away.

---

When I did finally get up the courage to send him an email some months later, I made it clear that I wanted to heal the breach, and I asked if he thought we could be friends again one day in the future. He said that he didn't think there was any bad feeling between us that needed future reconciliation. There were lots of exclamation marks and he seemed happy and balanced, though surprised that I had written. He even seemed to be teasing me. I felt a fool, but I maintained my stance of trying to make amends, though I didn't have the courage to spell out why, let alone to try to refriend him.

So I didn't apologise explicitly, but I made it obvious that I wanted to restore our connection. Then I decided he probably wanted to be left alone.

---

All your comments have been so helpful. Thanks so much for caring. :)

I do want to try to email him again - I feel like I botched my attempt to patch it up. Heck, even that was childish.

I know I owe him a proper, straightforward apology.
And I do realise that I need to be more open and less guarded.
But exactly how much I tell him, and whether I should really do it over email...from personal experience, he is alarmed easily and can overreact to smaller things than me. *cough* Though he cools down as quickly as he heats up.

Might I not scare him? I love the idea of coming clean, but I think there's a fifty-fifty chance he'll shut down...and he denied knowledge of there being anything wrong...

(Individual responses later. Thanks again, one and all!)

This sounds good. Really. I have been here so often. But I had never heard a girl admit somewhere having this thoughts. You are a real help for me here! So far I only worked on very strong educated guesses. But I would have loved a real confirmation so far.

Hints dropping like dead stones. They went all through that :(. I analysed/explained this some where. But I know now, I can't process those hints. I found really ordinary explanations for what girls seem to think are outrages hints. And that went basically to the most extreem :P. (i only answer that if somebody asks)

He, as in I(!0 clammed up because you where there. That is usually the case when I am madly in love and I don't want to say anything wrong. Especially the fact that he is quite talkative to others, is the give away. (or would have been in my case).

Grin, unreliable sources....I got my share in my life. :P. On both sides.

Back ward analyzing, anger, hurt and confusion. That is the only thing I left to most girls, when I tried to do the opposite.

Two months later he was over his mad love, and realized...oh god she wants to be friends at least. Lets not ...how do I say that politely f*** that up to :P.

Left alone...more confused than ever :P.

This is my story, not necessary his. But it happened so many times! So what you think of it, you should decide for yourself. But it might be, or not, exactly my story. But then again, we are all unique. All I can say is DON'T TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS! They were made for NT to NT! They where not evolved, nor trained during live to deal with the unexpected. If he was me, he is probably thinking about you and crying on his pillow. But maybe he is not me :P.

Though on a bit of a personal note. What should I say to those girls, since I would love to explain what happened. I mean I remember almost all of them. And that makes it practically very useless. But ....gosh the idea scares me so much that they never know. But on the other hand....they are all so cold now! Well, ok not all....nowadays that doesn't stop me from fear anymore. But...this me remember, if he was like me. What would you like to hear of him. Imagine now, or even if it was years from now. (yeah I do remember them all :( ). Or should I say, I never stopped loving them :P.

I suppose I actually could use an answer quick...since...I am seeing one tomorrow :P. (after me met the last time we met was about 8 years ago). Though over mail she said she did love me. Still does. But not as boyfriend material :P. (which I was really having to weight in, yeah duh...you are practically married with kids vs. I never suggested that.....in fact I suggested the opposite :P. Why you are telling me :P. I have to admit, that little add on crushed the whole enjoyment out of hearing she loves me :P. )
 
Please don't feel you have to stay away! If it does work out, you may find yourself in need of advice somewhere down the line, and we are always here for you. Don't worry, we all have embarrassing, personal stories. :) You may even be able to help someone else who finds herself in your place.

So don't be afraid to return, ever.

Aww royinpink, you're too nice. I may actually take you up on that and hang out here from time to time, regardless of my story...it's a lovely forum and everyone here is pretty awesome! :D

I feel a little (*cough*) cowardly saying this, but I still haven't contacted him. I had the perfect chance to start a conversation (forwarding a call for papers) and you guys were so encouraging and I knew I should have...but I thought about it for too long and then it was too close to the deadline to send it. :rolleyes: That said, I've now detached from it all a bit more, so perhaps I'll find another excuse...

I *will* do something instead of just talking about it, I promise. It's just a matter of time and courage. :blush:

Though on a bit of a personal note. What should I say to those girls, since I would love to explain what happened. I mean I remember almost all of them. And that makes it practically very useless. But ....gosh the idea scares me so much that they never know. But on the other hand....they are all so cold now! Well, ok not all....nowadays that doesn't stop me from fear anymore. But...this me remember, if he was like me. What would you like to hear of him. Imagine now, or even if it was years from now. (yeah I do remember them all :( ). Or should I say, I never stopped loving them :p.

I suppose I actually could use an answer quick...since...I am seeing one tomorrow :p. (after me met the last time we met was about 8 years ago). Though over mail she said she did love me. Still does. But not as boyfriend material :p. (which I was really having to weight in, yeah duh...you are practically married with kids vs. I never suggested that.....in fact I suggested the opposite :p. Why you are telling me :p. I have to admit, that little add on crushed the whole enjoyment out of hearing she loves me :p. )

Thanks for your input into the situation, DonRojo. :) As to what you should do...sorry, this is obviously a bit late, I hadn't checked back here until now.

I'll imagine that we never resolved our "thing" and I met him again somewhere down the road, say ten years from the coffee. The butterflies probably wouldn't be there any more (well...maybe just a little bit ;) )...I would have completely got over any hurt I felt. What would I want him to say to me?

...I actually feel warm and fuzzy just thinking about him thinking about saying something to me about how he once felt. Assuming that he did actually feel something. :p

Just tell the truth. Say you weren't sure if she felt the same, and that you may have given signals that suggested you weren't into her...?

Of course, some girls act the same way I did and don't have those feelings...I think it can be hard to read girls sometimes... To go into popular media a little bit:


Now, if I'd gone to some trouble to meet a guy casually and he just wore a baseball cap and gave me leftovers, didn't talk to me, and played video games... yeah...I'd assume he wasn't interested. But apparently Jimmy Fallon had no idea Nicole Kidman "liked" him! Flirting is honestly hard to read for most people (I think!), because there's such a fine line between just playfully joking around with a member of the opposite sex and actually communicating romantic interest. Usually - if you're a girl :p - you just get a "feeling" that the guy likes you. But you don't want to read too much into it because a lot of guys may fancy you without necessarily wanting to take it further...

Okay, tangent. Anyway, as you say, being told you're loved by someone is a nice thing - as long as it isn't too overboard. ["I WON'T LET YOU GO, EVER, I NEED TO BE WITH YOU OR I'LL DIE!"...which is why I've been holding off emailing my guy, because until very, very recently this is still how I was feeling.]

Even if it's something like "I've always thought you were a really wonderful person...and I always wished we could have seen more of each other." That would make a girl feel appreciated, in fact it might make her day, whatever her own feelings had been.

Ah, human beings. Constant miscommunications. :blossom:

I wish you all the best, DonRojo!
 
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