Difference between having autistic traits and being autistic

[Matthias]

Dude, nobody here thinks you can't treat anxiety and depression and that you just have to live with it as a genetic inevitability.

I used to think that and many people on this forum got upset after I said I learned it wasn't genetic.

 

[Matthias]

More like a pie chart than a line, I would say. Like the one you get if you take the Aspie Quiz - with NTs being mainly on the left side, and ASD people being mainly on the right.

It's necesarily not the number of traits that determines a diagnosis (though thare are certain traits that MUST be present), but the intensity of them and how much they affect your functioning in daily life.

I tried to take the quiz but their website isn't working. It sounds like there is an overlap where people can be in the middle which would mean autistic brains aren't wired differently or don't have a different neural structure.

 

[Matthias]

I think we may find when neural imaging extends it's depth of complexity, that aspects of the brain and how it functions can be understood to be different. There is some interesting current research around this, and on developmental processes in the brain that it appears may be different in autism. This would likely produce a wide range of different internal functioning that would be experienced differently by different people.

One of the keys to thinking about how and where therapy can be most effective and what else may be useful where some types of psychological therapy is not the answer, is the cause of the issue. For example, relating issues caused through brain difference require different approaches to those caused through insecure attachment styles developed in early childhood.

While I am here, I would like to say to the OP, that he needs to do more than ask us here on a website for information, before he posts advice to others. I am concerned about the postings of the OP considering his very early stage of study and research in this area, and I would ask him to desist from advising others and defending views that appear to be built on very little knowledge or research.

I also would ask him to consider my points and those of others at length and over time, rather than immediately posting a response, or posting disagreement and an insistence of being somehow right. You have said you don't know anything much about any of this, that in itself should make you pause and consider whether it's appropriate for you to be posting strong views.

I've actually studied autism extensively over a period of many years. I wanted to know how people on this forum understood things to make it easier to share my vast knowledge on the subject and limit future misunderstandings. It's hard for a mathematics professor to explain a calculus problem to someone who may not know algebra so it's helpful to know what needs further explanation.

I don't recall posting a strong view as I mostly shared my personal experiences. Do you have any examples of something you interpreted as a strong view? I do remember getting an awful lot of strong views in response to my posts along the lines of "You're wrong. I'm right because I said so." without any explanation or evidence that refuted anything I said. Ironically, the responses often confirmed what I wrote.

 

[Fino]

I used to think that and many people on this forum got upset after I said I learned it wasn't genetic.

There are genetic factors which increase the risk of one developing either anxiety or depression, yes. Nobody thinks they're untreatable. That's an esoteric belief that I can't imagine anybody holding, but, you know what they say, there's always one.

 

[menander]

Everyone stims. It's a natural way of coping with anxiety. The only difference is some autistic people have more anxiety (which can be overcome) and stim in less socially acceptable ways (they can choose to stim in more socially acceptable ways like tapping a foot or clicking a pen).

I can't choose to alter stims. I have tried. No relief . A stim to me is like a drive.

 

[Matthias]

There are genetic factors which increase the risk of one developing either anxiety or depression, yes. Nobody thinks they're untreatable. That's an esoteric belief that I can't imagine anybody holding, but, you know what they say, there's always one.

Some people say their autistic traits cause other people to treat them worse which results in anxiety that they can't overcome since they can't change their genes or control how other people treat them.

Even researchers aren't sure whether symptoms of anxiety in people with ASD are treatable. Studies that estimated the prevalence of anxiety in autistic people ranged from as low as 12% to as high as 85% because they didn't agree on whether symptoms of anxiety (such as extreme distress to small changes) were caused by anxiety/psychological or were a genetic part of autism. It's important since many of the symptoms of ASD are considered symptoms of depression and anxiety in people who aren't autistic but are often considered genetic and untreatable when a person is diagnosed with ASD.

 

[Kalinychta]

Everyone stims. It's a natural way of coping with anxiety. The only difference is some autistic people have more anxiety (which can be overcome) and stim in less socially acceptable ways (they can choose to stim in more socially acceptable ways like tapping a foot or clicking a pen).

I rock (stim) when I am anxious and sad, yes, but I do it just as often when I am happy, excited, sleepy, just for pleasure, etc. Stimming in autistic people is the result of executive dysfunction in the brain, and it’s much different than the way NTs tap their pen or play with their hair or whatever. I’ve rocked every day of my life since I was an infant. I can’t choose to stim in a different way. For you to say otherwise is, frankly, ignorant and arrogant.

Nowhere in the DSM are anxiety and depression listed as traits of autism. There are plenty of autistic people on this forum who have no generalized anxiety issues. For someone who claims to be an expert, you demonstrate over and over how little you know about autism. We are not all tortured souls being burned alive by anxiety here, as you seem to think.

 

[SDRSpark]

I rock (stim) when I am anxious and sad, yes, but I do it just as often when I am happy, excited, sleepy, just for pleasure, etc. Stimming in autistic people is the result of executive dysfunction in the brain, and it’s much different than the way NTs tap their pen or play with their hair or whatever. I’ve rocked every day of my life since I was an infant. I can’t choose to stim in a different way. For you to say otherwise is, frankly, ignorant and arrogant.

Same. If you ever catch me not stimming, I'm either extremely relaxed (as in, probably not functioning because I'm almost asleep) or in so much distress that I'm frozen/shut down.

Various levels of rocking or fidgeting is my "normal functioning". If I'm outside of that range, it's unusual and may not be a good thing.

Stimming is a lot more than just a reaction to anxiety. For instance, rocking back and forth in the car helps keep me from getting car sick, and I am better able to stand if I'm rocking - if I try to stand still, I feel like I'm going to fall over.

Anxiety has very little to do with it (though I do fidget more if I'm upset.)

 

[Matthias]

I rock (stim) when I am anxious and sad, yes, but I do it just as often when I am happy, excited, sleepy, just for pleasure, etc.

So did I until last year.

Stimming in autistic people is the result of executive dysfunction in the brain

Your opinion is noted.

I can’t choose to stim in a different way. For you to say otherwise is, frankly, ignorant and arrogant.

Your opinions are noted. However, I used to rock when I had anxiety but now that I overcame my anxiety I'm calm and don't need to did it anymore. I still occasionally do it anyway but it's a choice. I don't have to do it.

Also, rocking isn't unique to autism. There are plenty of people who aren't autistic who enjoy rocking. They make rocking chairs for that purpose and I'm sure most people who buy them aren't autistic since they've been around for awhile and wouldn't have been popular otherwise.

Nowhere in the DSM are anxiety and depression listed as traits of autism.

About half of the ASD symptoms in the DSM are known symptoms of anxiety and depression. This is well known by medical researchers and doctors.

There are plenty of autistic people on this forum who have no generalized anxiety issues.

Awesome. I never said every autistic person had anxiety. I'm sure some of them are anxious but good at suppressing it.

For someone who claims to be an expert, you demonstrate over and over how little you know about autism. We are not all tortured souls being burned alive by anxiety here, as you seem to think.

You're jumping to conclusions. I never thought such a thing. If you read the post just above the one you posted (#26), you'll see that I wrote "Studies that estimated the prevalence of anxiety in autistic people ranged from as low as 12% to as high as 85% because they didn't agree on whether symptoms of anxiety (such as extreme distress to small changes) were caused by anxiety/psychological or were a genetic part of autism."

 

[Matthias]

I can't choose to alter stims. I have tried. No relief . A stim to me is like a drive.

Sounds like OCD. Many people with OCD have tried and failed to overcome compulsions.

If you're interested in what other autistic people think: "in an online survey study of 100 autistic adults, highlighted a wide range of reasons for stimming, including a coping mechanism to reduce anxiety (72%) or overstimulation (57%), or to calm down (69%)." ‘People should be allowed to do what they like’: Autistic adults’ views and experiences of stimming

Like OCD, the most common reason in autistic adults in the study was anxiety.

 

[Ezra]

It's not the traits that are as much of an issue as the cause.

For instance I cough fairly frequently due to allergies and a side effect of a medication I take.

Which is a different situation than if I were coughing due to COPD or lung cancer.

The reason for the cough is more pertinent than the cough itself.

The reason for traits is more pertinent than the traits themselves.

 

[Fino]

Some people say their autistic traits cause other people to treat them worse which results in anxiety that they can't overcome since they can't change their genes or control how other people treat them.

Even researchers aren't sure whether symptoms of anxiety in people with ASD are treatable. Studies that estimated the prevalence of anxiety in autistic people ranged from as low as 12% to as high as 85% because they didn't agree on whether symptoms of anxiety (such as extreme distress to small changes) were caused by anxiety/psychological or were a genetic part of autism. It's important since many of the symptoms of ASD are considered symptoms of depression and anxiety in people who aren't autistic but are often considered genetic and untreatable when a person is diagnosed with ASD.

How could symptoms of anxiety not be treatable? What happens when you give them Valium? And how have I gotten so much relief from anxiety? You said people on the forum claimed their symptoms were untreatable. The only person I've seen do that is you, just now. But I thought the whole point of this was that you did treat your anxiety. You weave a tangled web, my friend.

 

[Matthias]

How could symptoms of anxiety not be treatable?

Easy. Some symptoms of anxiety (such as pacing or distress at small changes) may be caused by something other than anxiety such as autism that some people think is genetic.

You said people on the forum claimed their symptoms were untreatable. The only person I've seen do that is you, just now.

Someone claimed it on post #25 in this very thread:

I can't choose to alter stims. I have tried. No relief . A stim to me is like a drive.

But I thought the whole point of this was that you did treat your anxiety. You weave a tangled web, my friend.

You're misunderstanding. When something is a symptom of anxiety and autism, it's hard for even researchers to know whether the symptom is due to anxiety or autism. For example, I have no way of knowing whether manander's stims are caused by anxiety or something genetic that he really can't control.

 

[Progster]

I tried to take the quiz but their website isn't working. It sounds like there is an overlap where people can be in the middle which would mean autistic brains aren't wired differently or don't have a different neural structure.

It's just an online quiz. It gives you a visual representation of how you answered a set of questions and doesn't 'mean' anything; it cannot be taken as scientific proof and can't prove or disprove anything with regards to the neural structure of the brain. That's not what I was saying anyway, in my comment I was giving an example to illustrate how I imagine a visual representation of the spectrum to be.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Easy. Some symptoms of anxiety (such as pacing or distress at small changes) may be caused by something other than anxiety such as autism that some people think is genetic.

In which case they are not symptoms of anxiety at all, they are symptoms of something else. Symptoms of anxiety are treated by treating the anxiety itself, either with therapy or medication.

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Someone claimed it on post #25 in this very thread:

I can't choose to alter stims. I have tried. No relief . A stim to me is like a drive.

Menander is not claiming here that their symptoms of anxiety cannot be treated, they are claiming that they cannot alter/stop stimming. You are assuming that stimming is a symptom of anxiety, but others have stated in this thread, and I concur, that stimming is not just related to anxiety, but many different emotions. For example my most obvious stims are related to happiness and excitement.

As far as I can tell what you are getting at is that people can be misdiagnosed as autistic due to anxiety and depression, which is obviously true. Psychological diagnoses are not an exact science, especially with such a diverse "disorder" as autism. We can only hope that continued research on the subject allows for more accurate diagnoses in future. I am sorry if your misdiagnosis has caused you distress.

 

[menander]

Sounds like OCD. Many people with OCD have tried and failed to overcome compulsions.

If you're interested in what other autistic people think: "in an online survey study of 100 autistic adults, highlighted a wide range of reasons for stimming, including a coping mechanism to reduce anxiety (72%) or overstimulation (57%), or to calm down (69%)." ‘People should be allowed to do what they like’: Autistic adults’ views and experiences of stimming

Like OCD, the most common reason in autistic adults in the study was anxiety.

Yes, I do indeed have a certain amount of OCD but I did not as a child. I had no OCD until a trauma, and YET, even as a baby in the crib I rocked and rocked and head banged, like a lot here did. I banged head onto floor, into the couch with GLEE! When a relative came over, I'd drop the floor and rocked on all fours with JOY! Hardly anxiety there.

I like that you are here because you give us a chance to hear all the things people have claimed about us over the years that are not true. You maybe never had autism. YOU may be the one misdiagnosed. So the fact that you are here and telling us we are not autistic is great because we can talk it out and find our defenses. The fact that there are SO many of us with the same early experiences shows we are right. But I do like that you are here. It sharpens my ability to verbalize my defense and that is very important.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, I do indeed have a certain amount of OCD but I did not as a child. I had no OCD until a trauma, and YET, even as a baby in the crib I rocked and rocked and head banged, like a lot here did. I banged head onto floor, into the couch with GLEE! When a relative came over, I'd drop the floor and rocked on all fours with JOY! Hardly anxiety there.

You misunderstood. I never said anxiety was the only reason people stim. I'm well aware of the other reasons and recently made a post about stimming that mentioned several of them.

So the fact that you are here and telling us we are not autistic is great because we can talk it out and find our defenses.

I never claimed that anyone here is not autistic.

The fact that there are SO many of us with the same early experiences shows we are right.

No, it does not.

But I do like that you are here. It sharpens my ability to verbalize my defense and that is very important.

Glad you like my posts. I used to rely on defense mechanisms to protect myself from NTs that I wrongly believed were attacking me for being different but it made me much worse over the long run because it prevented me from finding a solution to overcome my problems. I'm glad I got rid of them.

 

[Fino]

About half of the ASD symptoms in the DSM are known symptoms of anxiety and depression. This is well known by medical researchers and doctors.

Here is a link to the criteria:

Diagnostic Criteria | Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) | NCBDDD | CDC

Can you point out which of these are "known symptoms of anxiety and depression" as well as give links to sources of the evidence by these "medical researchers and doctors"?

 

[Kalinychta]

You misunderstood. I never said anxiety was the only reason people stim. I'm well aware of the other reasons and recently made a post about stimming that mentioned several of them.

Yesterday, you posted this: "Everyone stims. It's a natural way of coping with anxiety. The only difference is some autistic people have more anxiety (which can be overcome) and stim in less socially acceptable ways (they can choose to stim in more socially acceptable ways like tapping a foot or clicking a pen)." Then today at 9:32 AM, you edited it (your changes are highlighted in bold): "Everyone stims. It's a natural response to anxiety and other emotions. A couple reasons some people consider it a problem in autism is that some autistic people experience more emotions and stim in less socially acceptable ways (many autistic people can and have found more socially acceptable ways to stim)." And then at 10:23 AM, you posted the "You misunderstood" comment. Stop posting comments and then editing them when we point out your inconsistencies and contradictions and then telling us we're just confused and misunderstood you. You've done this several times that I've seen.

 

[Matthias]

Here is a link to the criteria:

Diagnostic Criteria | Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) | NCBDDD | CDC

Can you point out which of these are "known symptoms of anxiety and depression" as well as give links to sources of the evidence by these "medical researchers and doctors"?

Yes, but why search for what I already found? If you want to confirm what I wrote, look it up yourself. You can find everything on Google and PubMed.