Do others find your lifestyle and values baffling?

[DuckRabbit]

NT's don't seem to realize that they really don't need all the stuff that they think gives their lives meaning but really doesn't.

I'd disagree with you here though. For many NTs, the material goods and services that their lifestyles and values are built to acquire are a matter of life and death. The car they drive or the holidays they go on or the postcode they have on their business card are the only things standing between them and the icy-cold void of meaninglessness, aka 'being a nobody'. God forbid. This is because they have aligned their self-worth and happiness with social status. Poor things - playing the game, buying into it, treating it as real! This set of values and lifestyle can take many people pretty far in life (and make many others feel like failures in the process), but it's ultimately such a socially constructed game, it's bound to prove hollow in the end or when the wheel of life turns and some trauma hits and they stand there as though the tide has gone out: naked and exposed, 'nobodies' - just as they feared.

So I do agree with you really ; it's just that from the NT's perspective it can be highly meaningful: the be-all and end-all and the focus of all their energies for a very long time, if not until the grave. As Virginia Woolf said: "I thought how unpleasant it is to be locked out and I thought how it is worse, perhaps, to be locked in."

 

[DuckRabbit]

no straight out hatred

Do you think he *hated* me for not conforming to his expectations? I felt only that he'd lost interest and I faded off his radar.

 

[Streetwise]

Do you think he *hated* me for not conforming to his expectations? I felt only that he'd lost interest and I faded off his radar.

I was talking about myself only

 

[Fino]

Yes. My life baffles people to the point of headaches. I'm just as baffled about others, I just don't care enough to get headaches about it. Not anymore.

 

[Baeraad]

I'm not sure that people are perplexed by my values so much as they consider them the mark of a sick mind. They seem to have no problem sorting me into one unflattering stereotype or another. One might say that they are the opposite of perplexed - they assume that they understand me all too well, if anything.

My lifestyle, not so much, I guess. It's not terribly unusual. Socially isolated men with nerdy interests are a dime a dozen.

 

[oregano]

@DuckRabbit, I think we are basically saying the same thing, only with different words. After all, communication difficulties is one of the core features of autism.

Anyway, my point is that wealthy NT's, what Marx called "petit bourgeoisie" and what I call "trash bourgeoisie" (because of their tendency to accumulate junk that looks flashy but is still junk) or "the mercantile class" (since a lot of them are small businessmen and learned professionals like lawyers and doctors) really believe that owning stuff is the point of existence, and if their stuff is destroyed they are robbed of their identities.

The wildfire that wiped out a quarter of Santa Rosa two years ago demolished a district called Fountaingrove where the city's mercantiles lived. One of them was a very wealthy and respected and talented dentist whose mansion was incinerated. Several weeks later, an anti-looting patrol found his body among the ashes. He'd laid down in the ruins with a shotgun and blown his head off. He still had his dental knowledge and skills and even his office which was in another area of the city, and he could have started over practically anywhere, but he killed himself because he couldn't imagine a life without his mansion and all the stuff inside.

Warren Buffett is attributed as having said "When the tide goes out, you find out who is swimming naked." That means that people who can hide their weak spots in good times are revealed when the good times end. Lately there has been a surge in "estate sales" by kids of wealthy boomers who have died or had to give up their homes for assisted living here in Sacramento, and inevitably they are full of flashy looking but poorly made Chinese furniture and kitchen appliances that still look snazzy but don't work well anymore. Nobody at all wants stuff that was initially very expensive.

I like to say that all material items eventually go back to their true value which is zero. People dump furniture on curbsides all the time here with a piece of paper labeled FREE attached.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I'm not sure that people are perplexed by my values so much as they consider them the mark of a sick mind. They seem to have no problem sorting me into one unflattering stereotype or another. One might say that they are the opposite of perplexed - they assume that they understand me all too well, if anything.

My lifestyle, not so much, I guess. It's not terribly unusual. Socially isolated men with nerdy interests are a dime a dozen.

Lol - that's the next level: not simply baffled but in possession of concrete proof that one is mad or sick.
I don't mean to laugh really, as there's no doubting how much pain is involved at the receiving end of such un-self-doubting inferences and summary judgements.

 

[DuckRabbit]

@DuckRabbit, I think we are basically saying the same thing, only with different words. After all, communication difficulties is one of the core features of autism.

Anyway, my point is that wealthy NT's, what Marx called "petit bourgeoisie" and what I call "trash bourgeoisie" (because of their tendency to accumulate junk that looks flashy but is still junk) or "the mercantile class" (since a lot of them are small businessmen and learned professionals like lawyers and doctors) really believe that owning stuff is the point of existence, and if their stuff is destroyed they are robbed of their identities.

The wildfire that wiped out a quarter of Santa Rosa two years ago demolished a district called Fountaingrove where the city's mercantiles lived. One of them was a very wealthy and respected and talented dentist whose mansion was incinerated. Several weeks later, an anti-looting patrol found his body among the ashes. He'd laid down in the ruins with a shotgun and blown his head off. He still had his dental knowledge and skills and even his office which was in another area of the city, and he could have started over practically anywhere, but he killed himself because he couldn't imagine a life without his mansion and all the stuff inside.

Warren Buffett is attributed as having said "When the tide goes out, you find out who is swimming naked." That means that people who can hide their weak spots in good times are revealed when the good times end. Lately there has been a surge in "estate sales" by kids of wealthy boomers who have died or had to give up their homes for assisted living here in Sacramento, and inevitably they are full of flashy looking but poorly made Chinese furniture and kitchen appliances that still look snazzy but don't work well anymore. Nobody at all wants stuff that was initially very expensive.

I like to say that all material items eventually go back to their true value which is zero. People dump furniture on curbsides all the time here with a piece of paper labeled FREE attached.

Some instructive anecdotes here, including the pithy Warren Buffett quote (I didn't know it was him who said that). I like to distinguish though between materialism and consumerism, although many people conflate the two.

Consumerism in my view is the unhealthy, false one - acquiring goods and services as status symbols to try to turn yourself from a 'nobody' (as they see it) into a 'somebody'. You don't actually give a damn about the functions or aesthetics of your Apple Mac or the aerodynamic problems solved so beautifully on your Ferrari or the painterly properties of your (mass produced) Damien Hirst; all you care about is how they make people think of you: admiring glances, envy, attention, getting noticed, lifted out of obscurity, recognised. Phew, what a relief from my miserable, anonymous, impoverished existence!

Materialism on the other hand might entail appreciation for the objects one acquires, out of a genuine love for those objects and passion for the crafting, engineering, design or innovation that might have gone into them e.g,. some love classic cars, others love gold jewellery, others antique lampshades or artworks or whatever it is. In these cases the attraction is for the object and its intrinsic properties, not for what the object can do to boost one's social status.

 

[Aspychata]

I like some creature comforts, l am not going to put on my nun Halloween outfit yet.

 

[Crossbreed]

Do others find your lifestyle and values baffling?

Yes.

1. Once, when I was in the market for a new (to me) car, I found one that looked promising. I was doing some research on the model when I encountered the dealer at an unrelated location. He told me about how another young couple was eying the same car.
   
   (I started thinking, "I really don't want to get into a bidding war with another buyer...") So, I said, "They can have it. Show me what else you have."
   
   Shocked at my response, he admitted that there was no second buyer. It was only then that I realized that it was a ploy to manipulate me into buying it more impulsively... (I have since seen that ruse portrayed as a meme, so it must be pretty common.)
   ~~~
2. When I was talking to PayPal's customer support, their rep commented on how unusual my email address' names were.

At job interviews I regularly get negative remarks about how pretty much all of my hobbies are solitary hobbies. This often leads prospective employers to question whether I am able to function in a team.

I never made that connection before.

 

[Thinx]

Yes I don't need a lot, and tend to live quite economically. I find the responsibility of ownership daunting, and functionality more important than how something looks. I do tend to let things get in a muddle though, like my house silts up with stuff. Just doing a massive declutter that's quite satisfying, given lots to charity and recycling. But it's quite hard to keep up my motivation, however I have.

Lots I agree with on this thread, we are not consumerist or on the whole, or materialistic I would say. Differently materialistic maybe, for example I love to pick up beach stones and shells, only certain ones though, and I like trying to grow vegetables... maybe the world is getting to where how we are is a useful way to be.

I think we are too simple and direct for the manipulators who try making money out of people, though we may be prey for the ones that deliberately scam others. Mostly I don't speak with anyone about my finances or arrangements.

 

[Misery]

The wildfire that wiped out a quarter of Santa Rosa two years ago demolished a district called Fountaingrove where the city's mercantiles lived. One of them was a very wealthy and respected and talented dentist whose mansion was incinerated. Several weeks later, an anti-looting patrol found his body among the ashes. He'd laid down in the ruins with a shotgun and blown his head off. He still had his dental knowledge and skills and even his office which was in another area of the city, and he could have started over practically anywhere, but he killed himself because he couldn't imagine a life without his mansion and all the stuff inside.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say there was more to this story than just that.

It's easy to make assumptions about situations like this, but rarely are things quite that simple. For all we know, the guy could have already been in a downward spiral of terrible depression, and that was the last straw. That mansion could have also been full of mementos of lost family, causing enough pain to push him over the deep end. In other words, there were likely far more factors than simply "his house exploded". There is simply no way to know what was going on in someone's private life or in their mind without them directly explaining.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Lots I agree with on this thread, we are not consumerist or on the whole, or materialistic I would say. Differently materialistic maybe, for example I love to pick up beach stones and shells, only certain ones though, and I like trying to grow vegetables...

Sounds like healthy materialism - appreciating the natural world! (ie not mindless consumerism). I'm against spiritual and religious groups who try to pretend we're not embodied beings on a 3D physical world with senses to appreciate it all; they try to leap-frog over the physical, thinking that will get them to the spiritual quicker, whereas this attitude can actually lead to a lot of abuses. As Hubert Reeves puts it: "Man is the most insane species. He worships an invisible God and destroys a visible Nature. Unaware that this Nature he’s destroying is this God he’s worshipping.” There are people who are devoted to 'God' while neglecting or abusing other people or themselves or the planet. I'm of the view that we need to BE or BECOME ourselves whatever we'd like 'God' to be; it's nothing outside of us and, for this incarnation at least, nothing outside of the physical world we're supposed to be the custodians of. To date, we've been marauders.

maybe the world is getting to where how we are is a useful way to be.

Yes, ASC values and lifestyles may be in vogue yet! Instagram pages such as these give me hope:
We Plant Trees (@smartklimat) • Instagram photos and videos
Ⓥ For Vegans Sake Ⓥ (@for.vegans.sake) • Instagram photos and videos
One Tree Planted (@onetreeplanted) • Instagram photos and videos
AngelSupplies. #BaoBottle (@the_angelgroup) • Instagram photos and videos

I think we are too simple and direct for the manipulators who try making money out of people, though we may be prey for the ones that deliberately scam others.

Yes, there are studies showing that ASC individuals are less susceptible to advertising and marketing ploys than are NTs. ASC individuals are just not susceptible to the same lures and hooks. See Vance Packard's 'The Waste Makers' - a prophetic book from 1960.

 

[Streetwise]

Sounds like healthy materialism - appreciating the natural world! (ie not mindless consumerism). I'm against spiritual and religious groups who try to pretend we're not embodied beings on a 3D physical world with senses to appreciate it all; they try to leap-frog over the physical, thinking that will get them to the spiritual quicker, whereas this attitude can actually lead to a lot of abuses. As Hubert Reeves puts it: "Man is the most insane species. He worships an invisible God and destroys a visible Nature. Unaware that this Nature he’s destroying is this God he’s worshipping.” There are people who are devoted to 'God' while neglecting or abusing other people or themselves or the planet. I'm of the view that we need to BE or BECOME ourselves whatever we'd like 'God' to be; it's nothing outside of us and, for this incarnation at least, nothing outside of the physical world we're supposed to be the custodians of. To date, we've been marauders.


Yes, ASC values and lifestyles may be in vogue yet! Instagram pages such as these give me hope:
We Plant Trees (@smartklimat) • Instagram photos and videos
Ⓥ For Vegans Sake Ⓥ (@for.vegans.sake) • Instagram photos and videos
One Tree Planted (@onetreeplanted) • Instagram photos and videos
AngelSupplies. #BaoBottle (@the_angelgroup) • Instagram photos and videos


Yes, there are studies showing that ASC individuals are less susceptible to advertising and marketing ploys than are NTs. ASC individuals are just not susceptible to the same lures and hooks. See Vance Packard's 'The Waste Makers' - a prophetic book from 1960.

so apparently the people who are religious and don’t abuse other people are worthless to you

 

[DuckRabbit]

so apparently the people who are religious and don’t abuse other people are worthless to you

It doesn't really matter if the person is religious or not; it's their heart and behaviour that matters. You can get a moral/ethical Christian for example and you can get a immoral/unethical Christian. (There's actually a crime programme about people of the cloth who have resorted to murder). You can get moral/ethical Hindus and you can get immoral/unethical Hindus. And so on. Similarly, you can get moral/ethical atheists and immoral/unethical atheists.

To me, much depends on a person's level of consciousness, which often depends in turn how much of their shadow-side they have integrated. People of lower level consciousness tend to project their shadow out onto the world - onto other people, groups in society, animals, the natural world etc. People of higher level consciousness have usually undergone more suffering and if this has enhanced their compassion and insight, rather than bent them out of shape with bitterness, then others suffer less around them. As Carl Jung says: "Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." I think we need both "ideal conceptions" (models to live up to) AND acquaintance with the darker aspects of our nature (each encounter is like a death of ego, so not for the faint-hearted - no wonder people resist it; we all do).

I have great affinity with the Jungian view of the psyche as biased and seeking wholeness, or at least learning how to live with all the tensions and contradictions - either striking a balance between the myriad dualisms (cynicism vs idealism, imagination vs pragmatism, self vs others, suspicion vs trust, reason vs emotion etc.) or being reconciled to paying the price when we choose one over the other (i.e., suffering).

What happens when people polarise - such as shunning the material world, money, the ego, or the pleasures of the flesh etc - is that they find a way of attracting it unconsciously, so it enters their life through the back door so to speak - stealthily instead of openly; or via uncontrollable compulsions instead of in a 'choosing' way. It can be a false holiness or a false transcendence of the ego.

 

[Streetwise]

It doesn't really matter if the person is religious or not; it's their heart and behaviour that matters. You can get a moral/ethical Christian for example and you can get a immoral/unethical Christian. (There's actually a crime programme about people of the cloth who have resorted to murder). You can get moral/ethical Hindus and you can get immoral/unethical Hindus. And so on. Similarly, you can get moral/ethical atheists and immoral/unethical atheists.

To me, much depends on a person's level of consciousness, which often depends in turn how much of their shadow-side they have integrated. People of lower level consciousness tend to project their shadow out onto the world - onto other people, groups in society, animals, the natural world etc. People of higher level consciousness have usually undergone more suffering and if this has enhanced their compassion and insight, rather than bent them out of shape with bitterness, then others suffer less around them. As Carl Jung says: "Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious." I think we need both "ideal conceptions" (models to live up to) AND acquaintance with the darker aspects of our nature (each encounter is like a death of ego, so not for the faint-hearted - no wonder people resist it; we all do).

I have great affinity with the Jungian view of the psyche as biased and seeking wholeness, or at least learning how to live with all the tensions and contradictions - either striking a balance between the myriad dualisms (cynicism vs idealism, imagination vs pragmatism, self vs others, suspicion vs trust, reason vs emotion etc.) or being reconciled to paying the price when we choose one over the other (i.e., suffering).

What happens when people polarise - such as shunning the material world, money, the ego, or the pleasure of the flesh etc - is that they find a way of attracting it unconsciously, so it enters their life through the back door so to speak - stealthily instead of openly; or via uncontrollable compulsions instead of in a 'choosing' way. It can be a false holiness or a false transcendence of the ego.

You singled out spiritual and religious groups ,which has been done to death in my opinion !and you don’t grasp the fact that having a faith doesn’t mean you are perfect ,The point of having a faith is you need help And people (of all persuasions in different degrees)don’t like to change All humans are unique, there is one particular race of people who are known by a religious name, who have absolutely no faith in it whatsoever, it doesn’t say because you call yourself by the name of a faith ,that you are observant in any way whatsoever ,what you really mean is you feel accepted by the people you have known who may be observant or may not ,I presume, I am not from that racial group.

 

[HidinginPlainSight]

Have you ever felt that others are perplexed or bewildered by your values and lifestyle?

Yes.

I've been directly told as much by more than one person. I never really understood the cause for their concern.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Actually, I think I've just had this attitude all my life, and luckily, it matches up with Christianity, and it's my Christian belief system that makes me feel even more strongly about not wanting so much stuff. Well, wait, I'm not really sure which came first.
(And I do agree with you in what you're saying.)

This is my eternal question too: do ASC individuals choose, desire and endorse this 'Less is more'/ 'What I have is enough' mind-set, or is it shaped by socio-economic responses to their neurological hardwiring (behaviours) which makes them skilled in some areas and inept in others, and they actually have no choice? Have they reconciled themselves to their 'constrained choice' (fate) or have they aligned themselves with it so that their lifestyle and values seem like the best ones to them? I guess it's a chicken-or-egg question and the answer is a mutually-reinforcing, inextricable helix, much like the nature-nurture debate.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Here is another example of ASC lifestyle and values flying in the face of NT ones:
Greta Thunberg refuses to accept £40,000 environmental award | Daily Mail Online

Do you think Greta Thunberg was right to turn down this monetary award (demonstrating to the world that 'Aspergers have values broader than just monetary ones, that include the welfare of the whole planet' - and setting an example) or do you think her decision is a mistake, perhaps a byproduct of her privileged socio-economic position, and she should have taken the money and allocated it instead to a tree-planting organisation (or split it between several)?

 

[Crossbreed]

do ASC individuals choose, desire and endorse this 'Less is more'/ 'What I have is enough' mind-set, or is it shaped by socio-economic responses to their neurological hardwiring (behaviours) which makes them skilled in some areas and inept in others, and they actually have no choice?

For me, "stuff" can be of benefit, but it always brings with it responsibility (care & maintenance). So, I look for a balance between the two.