Does not mix well with politics also to much black and white thinking, why I ignored office politics or gossip.
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do you think autism is genetic?
- Thread starter madisen622
- Start date
Timelord
Being Myself
Herbert has no solutions outside of diet. Invoking the ICD in any form is invoking disease. Autism is not a disease so don't use it in any way shape or form. Discussion of Autism revolves around the DSM. That is where the diagnostic criteria resides.
No - I hold to number 4 which I gave - not number 2. 3 is totally wrong as it is NOT an injury whether it is ASD1, 2 or 3. Please do not put words into my mouth.
Also - we saw a boom of ASD2's after 1943. Remember - it was ZERO before that (the subjects of studies don't count towards those numbers because they weren't recognised). Just as it was zero for ASD1's and 3's prior to the 1980's.
If it needs a solution is a problem, human issues can be physical or spiritual.
@Timelord, I am just revisiting this thread, and this, by no means, is "ganging up" on you, so don't take it that way. I just want to add a bit more clarity. @Crossbreed is correct with regards to the immune functioning of some autism variants. At this point, this goes beyond the realm of hypothesis given all the research performed on this topic. All you need to do is go to Google Scholar and search "autism and immune dysfunction" to find the many scientific journal articles on the topic. Best to limit the search to the past, say, 5 years because there are so many, but more importantly, we've learned a lot more on the topic. T-cell dysfunction, inflammatory mediator dysfunction, oxidative stress, microglia and macrophage distribution within the brain, the gut-brain axis, and much more, are altered in autism.
I know there is a lot of focus upon the behavioral aspects of autism, how others may perceive us, etc. but as more and more information comes out, it's becoming crystal clear that all of this is secondary to the fact that autism is not just a neurodevelopmental condition, but more accurately, a legitimate medical condition with it's own genetics/epigenetics, immune system functioning, digestive, metabolic, neurotransmitter, and neuro-motor components.
Timelord
Being Myself
But all that has nothing to do with the base of Autism. They are issues that arise as a result of sensory sensitivities, and are as a consequence co-morbid issues. It is important to separate co-morbid issues from the base of Autism, and that is why there is a rightful focus on behaviour. Autism at the base is NOT a medical condition. If the sensitivities are found and controlled appropriately early, those other issues you speak of will never come up.
This "medical model" nonsense is why society continues to treat us with contempt and continues to be afraid of us and of Autism. It's why Robert F Kennedy Junior is so much of a threat to certainly US Autistics as he and Trump see it as medical. I won't go any further on that aspect. But it's why it has to stop. It's misleading at best and the same sort of cul-de-sac that Eugene Bleuler took us up after Emil Kraepelin's excellent paper in 189? (I can't remember the exact year as I type this). The genetic base is behavioural. The studies noted are about co-morbid issues to Autism, and not Autism itself at the base. It's why the work done on masking and camouflage is so relevant to the issue.
This "medical model" nonsense is why society continues to treat us with contempt and continues to be afraid of us and of Autism. It's why Robert F Kennedy Junior is so much of a threat to certainly US Autistics as he and Trump see it as medical. I won't go any further on that aspect. But it's why it has to stop. It's misleading at best and the same sort of cul-de-sac that Eugene Bleuler took us up after Emil Kraepelin's excellent paper in 189? (I can't remember the exact year as I type this). The genetic base is behavioural. The studies noted are about co-morbid issues to Autism, and not Autism itself at the base. It's why the work done on masking and camouflage is so relevant to the issue.
Let me chew on this a bit. As you are describing it above, (I may be interpreting your words wrong) it would appear that there is some confusion and certainly conflicts with all the genetic, epigenetic, micro-anatomy post-mortem studies of human brains, neuroimaging, etc.
Autism, by all accounts in the literature, especially lately, IS a medical condition. I have seen nothing to suggest otherwise given my rather extensive deep dive into the literature. I can refer you to over 100 studies rather quickly.
I DO agree that co-morbids may be, in some cases, separated from the core autism component. For example, I have visual snow syndrome (VSS) and chronic tinnitus. These are not considered core autism components, but there is a high-association with these two things and autism. Why? Altered neuronal migrational patterns. The same altered neuronal migrational patterns that occur with autism, but in my case, it also affected my visual and auditory centers. With regards to other co-morbids, more commonly attention deficits associated with autism, are likely a combination of things (diet, food toxins, behavioral environment, genetics and epigenetics). The available evidence seems to suggest a convergence of contributing factors leading to a predisposition, per se.
With the brain (and nearly everything else in this world), function follows form. Sensory sensitivities, one of many components of autism, and will vary significantly from one individual to another, is primarily due to the micro-anatomy of the brain. It's well-studied that not only are the migrational patterns of neurons in the cortex (beginning in the 3rd trimester of gestation) are different in the autistic brain, but the neurons, themselves, are often different at the micro-anatomical level (both too many or too little synaptic connections), not to mention that many areas of the brain do not go through the normal synaptic pruning process that should happen at around 2-3 years of age. Even as we age, some variants of autism do not go through the normal loss of neurons that is more common in aging neurotypical adults. With that, there can be significant differences in the conductivity (voltages) and connectivity (thickness/thinness of the wires) as compared to neurotypical brains. Again, all well-studied. Synesthesia, for example, is more common in autistic individuals. As a result, sensory issues, both enhanced and diminished, can be present in the same autistic individual. I didn't even get into the excitatory-to-inhibitory neurotransmitter imbalances, serotonin receptor binding and transport alterations, and the dopamine deficiencies and turnover, neuro-immune alterations, and metabolic disturbances like oxidant-to-antioxidant imbalances, altered methylation processes, creatine metabolism, on and on that can contribute to sensory sensitivities that are all genetically connected to autism, and can, in fact, become medical issues in and of themselves. You cannot tease away the sensory issues from autism, as these are deeply rooted in the condition.
Function follows form. A machine functions per its design specs. A brain is no different. The primary behaviors we typically see in autism are secondary to the brains design. There can be tertiary behaviors, as a result of life experiences, that may present as more psychiatric conditions as a consequence.
I have read the articles that RFK references suggesting, for example, that vaccines cause autism. He may be knowledgable on some topics, but with regards to this, specifically, he, like many others are conflating association with causation. Something that many scientists around the world have totally debunked several times, and we will likely have to debunk once again. There have been so many twisted conflations of how vaccines cause autism that have all been debunked, it is just silly. Mercury, well, the mercury in vaccines is not elemental mercury, but is bound to another molecule that simply gets passed out in the urine and is not metabolized at all. DNA fragments, well, those fragmented DNA strands are nothing more than common amino acids, the same that are in our bloodstream 24/7 when we eat food, are torn apart during metabolism, and furthermore, cannot gain access to the nucleus of our cells even if they are taken in by the cell, itself. The cell wall has no ability to take in genetic material, it can only take in amino acids, not unless it has a viral carrier. Anyone who has a basic understanding CRISPR will agree, the nucleus must be accessed, but most importantly, "gene splicing" is multi-step precision work, not something that say, live or attenuated-live virus would have the ability to perform. Furthermore, given that there is not one autism gene, but multiple (100's), even the most elaborate, targeted, laboratory-designed virus would never be able to accomplish, as it also requires precision DNA strand breaks for the correct splices to fit into the correct locations. An impossible feat even if you were Hell bent on creating it. Post vaccine inflammatory reactions, well, this does happen and can effect multiple organ systems, not disagreement there. However, whatever inflammatory cellular damage that may be triggered does not change the genetics and morphology of the neurons that have already been formed. It may affect future cells that have yet to be formed via epigenetic mechanisms. Neurons have the longest life cycle of any cell form in our body, multiple decades, this is why brain damage is so devastating because the brain just doesn't go through the normal programmed cell death and replacement (apoptosis) that other cell lines do. More importantly, this means that neurons formed in the womb are yours, well into adulthood. RFK seems to want to ignore that the areas of the brain that are affected, include the brainstem (developing in the 1st trimester of pregnancy), the thalamus (the second trimester of pregnancy), and the cortex and cerebellum (the 3rd trimester of pregnancy). This is all pre-programmed, genetic and epigenetic prenatal neurodevelopment. Certainly, not something that occurs after birth. RFK and others like him are making false conclusions based upon partial truths, which makes it all a lie.
My interpretation is that the medical model of autism is very clear. Function follows form. Co-morbids may be separate from the core autism component, but sometimes cannot be totally separated due to the underlying genetic and epigenetic pre-programming of the neuronal migration and formation. In other words, two or more separate things can occur due to similar underlying causes. Furthermore, I do not see RFK as a threat to autistics in the US because his entire premise is wrong, however well-meaning he may be. Autism develops prenatally. If he wants to find a way to decrease the incidence of autism via the "anti-vaccine" route, go right ahead. Have at it. He's barking up the wrong tree and a lot of people like him will be disappointed in their efforts. There are many other non-related reasons for the increase in autism.
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Timelord
Being Myself
Autism is NOT a medical condition. I will say that until I am blue in the face because it is true. It will be the case in the not too distant future that such a claim will be regarded as hate speech against the Autistic community.
The 100 studies you refer to are all wrong, or misleading - or you have misinterpreted them. The fact that you compared a brain to a machine in effect backs that up because it assumes normal function in the brain. There is no such thing as normal (except as a dryer setting). That is the very premise of neurodiversity in its proper and only biological meaning (ignore the political interpretation - that is doing more harm than good). No single human brain is exactly the same - never has been and never will be. That is why function cannot follow form in human beings. There is no form. It is all different. There is no sameness. Similarity is not form. Making it so (apologies to Jean-Luc Piccard) actually creates some of the issues in function that can lead to regressions in Autistics, so it's a bloody good reason not to do it. I hold the view that the key lies in behavioural genetics. I just wish I had the power to get my preferred theory to that followed up on. I am certain that my theory is right, but yes - it is only a theory at present.
It doesn't matter about whether or not RFK Junior is wrong. Because he is part of a fascist administration, he'll harm us. He doesn't understand Autism at all and doesn't want to because he listens to the wrong people. There is a very good chance that he'll get Trump to repeal the Autism CARES Act, leading to the shutting down of the IACC as an example. He will also do other damage - and with vaccines he is going to slow down research and development because he is in effect getting rid of the Court of Federal Claims because he wants people to directly sue the vaccine manufacturers and have a jury decide. The damage lies in the slow down in R&D and people will die in the meantime. It will happen because the money that should be going to R&D will instead go to lawyers. That's what was happening back in the 1980's and it was why the Court of Federal Claims was set up to begin with in 1986 (I think that was the year).
The 100 studies you refer to are all wrong, or misleading - or you have misinterpreted them. The fact that you compared a brain to a machine in effect backs that up because it assumes normal function in the brain. There is no such thing as normal (except as a dryer setting). That is the very premise of neurodiversity in its proper and only biological meaning (ignore the political interpretation - that is doing more harm than good). No single human brain is exactly the same - never has been and never will be. That is why function cannot follow form in human beings. There is no form. It is all different. There is no sameness. Similarity is not form. Making it so (apologies to Jean-Luc Piccard) actually creates some of the issues in function that can lead to regressions in Autistics, so it's a bloody good reason not to do it. I hold the view that the key lies in behavioural genetics. I just wish I had the power to get my preferred theory to that followed up on. I am certain that my theory is right, but yes - it is only a theory at present.
It doesn't matter about whether or not RFK Junior is wrong. Because he is part of a fascist administration, he'll harm us. He doesn't understand Autism at all and doesn't want to because he listens to the wrong people. There is a very good chance that he'll get Trump to repeal the Autism CARES Act, leading to the shutting down of the IACC as an example. He will also do other damage - and with vaccines he is going to slow down research and development because he is in effect getting rid of the Court of Federal Claims because he wants people to directly sue the vaccine manufacturers and have a jury decide. The damage lies in the slow down in R&D and people will die in the meantime. It will happen because the money that should be going to R&D will instead go to lawyers. That's what was happening back in the 1980's and it was why the Court of Federal Claims was set up to begin with in 1986 (I think that was the year).
"The 100 studies you refer to are all wrong, or misleading - or you have misinterpreted them." Wow. That's bold, arrogant, and totally ridiculous. "There is no such thing as normal". So, you never took a statistics course. In which case, by your thinking, there is no such thing as autism, which is diagnosed by criteria in the Diagnostic STATISTICAL Manual.
All conditions and diseases are diagnosed by knowing the difference between normal and not normal.
Cognitive dissonance. I can't help you here. Have a great day!
I find that a highly interesting issue! One that continues to vex me all the time. Where autism ends and begins, as opposed to comorbid conditions.
In my own case I've consistently felt my OCD was far more problematic than my autism. But as to identifying where one begins or ends....I have no answers to that.
I can only say that when I think of "disorders" I don't think of my autism, but most definitely when it comes to my OCD and clinical depression.
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Autism is the condition in its minimum terms. (According to Wing, that would include a lack of social instinct.)
Co-morbids are conditions that we are predisposed to, but do not all have. (Not all co-morbids are severe.)
That might be a nebulous technical explanation, but it is of little use to me personally. I'm looking for something a bit more in depth, and relative to myself.
It's funny though, "A lack of social instinct", according to who's dictates and standards? Because we do not conform in ways the "social /medical engineers" deem acceptable, we incur a term "disordered". Surely a ruse to chatise people into "knowing their place" as has the ruling class enforced for many centuries to date. The medical ontological gatekeepers have just picked up where the religious one's lost their influence, methinks.
We do not all have OCD, ADHD nor, surprisingly, face-blindness, but they are common enough in our midst, so they seem to be co-morbids.
Timelord
Being Myself
Thought so. I figured I was dealing with a pseudo-scientist comparing the brain to a machine. It's now confirmed with the standard pseudo-science insult (CD). Insists on defining normal and nitpicks. Classic Dunning Kruger Effect, and part of the problem and not part of the solution. They are always exposed when hit with practical facts.
Timelord
Being Myself
The reason it's of little use to you is because Cross breed is wrong. We are NOT pre-disposed to co-morbid conditions. That claim is actually quite insulting to be honest. The true definition of co-morbid is ANY condition or disease that has an effect on the behaviours inherent in being Autistic.
As I mentioned above: 1. "Co-morbids may be separate from the core autism component, but sometimes cannot be totally separated due to the underlying genetic and epigenetic pre-programming of the neuronal migration and formation. In other words, two or more separate things can occur due to similar underlying causes." 2. "The primary behaviors we typically see in autism are secondary to the brains design. There can be tertiary behaviors, as a result of life experiences, that may present as more psychiatric conditions as a consequence."
That is in view #4 (which is a derivative of view #2).
I have two cousins like your daughter. I don't think injuries or something like hypoxia around birth or pregnancy complications were mentioned, but maybe there was. Or they might have gotten unlucky and are just unable to compensate. Either way, they need a legal guardian.
Timelord
Being Myself
It is NOT! It is (if anything) a 50/50 combination of 1 and 2. Good and bad. Bad and good. It's all down to how YOU and others treat it. Co-morbidity is 100 percent consequential, not pre-disposed, and as I think I said before they need to be treated separately and not as part of being Autistic if any progress is to be made.
