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Equal rights for men and women? Can it really be that way?

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Speaking as a man, how about going into the new lack of clear male identity, what men face at not knowing their role or what is expected of them these days, sure chauvinism is being stamped out but so is chivalry.
A good debater knows an equal amount about what opposes the topic they are passionate about and if people are going to rattle off statistics about the evil that men do, where are the voices talking about how badly men are affected by today?s society.

Come on fellas...

I like this. I'm not gonna venture into the women shelters issue. Enough to say they are used by women who have never been abused, as loopholes to get free lawyer, welfare and full custody when they where not supposed too. And without men shelters/organizations to fight back for men's rights, there's no balance.

As per men roles, a gome mentioned, it is confusing. Take the stay at home dad for example. Not only I have to feed the kids, take'm to school, do laundry, make dinner, etc... but I also have to fix appliances (like my dryer saga), do home repairs, mechanic work on the cars, etc. Had I been a woman, I'll probably get a hubby paying for a dryer repair guy to come here and deal with the "man stuff". But I'm a man, so I'm expected to do all the house keeping *and* all the handyman stuff too. I'm not complaining tho, I enjoy doing these things. But if I get a job and current girlfriend gets to stay at home, I would appreciate if she could do some handyman stuff as well (which I'm lucky cuz current GF does).

And I wonder, how many men out there have their kids with them, and do all the stuff I do? Where are those statistics?
 
I agree with most of what Holly said about working together to create a just society. Cruelty, injustice, lust for power, selfishness, all those shortcomings provide fertile soil for the very abuses we've all discussed.

As for 'male identity & female identity', what I tried hard to do with my 2 kids is to instil in them a HUMAN identity based on being responsible, ethical, productive citizens. Neither was taught to adopt any kind of identity based on what was in their trousers. We had toys in our home: NOT girls' toys and boys' toys.

@RubenX: my husband is a lot like you in that he's a competent well rounded person who can build a fireplace as readily as he can stitch up a Barbie dress. I can paint well, tile a floor & knit & sew. I've mentioned before that fathers like you ought to be cloned. Many kids are in need of good parents. If your wife took advantage of your competence as an opportunity to slack off, well that was wrong indeed.

As for shelters that assist men, they're out there too. We have them BUT they aren't full to overflowing with a back-log of demand as are women's shelters. In our quest to recognize violence against men, let us not blind ourselves to the fact that this is NOT happening on anywhere near the scale as is violence by men against women.

@ Gomendosi: Men ARE being affected badly by today's society in many ways & past societies made life hard for all but the wealthiest men. My grandfather's pittance of an income was the sole money coming into the house. Every year there was another mouth to feed (20 births, 15 children, 10 survived to adulthood). There were no unions or rights for workers. These men had no sick leave, no increases in salary & promotions didn't really exist either: they were worked to death. Today, many guys are taught to be 'manly' & tough & we're seeing eating disorders in young boys in 5th grade. We're seeing steroid usage in boys of 14. We're seeing them engaging in dangerous self-destructive behaviours at alarming rates too. Many are raised without fathers & if they DO have one, it probably isn't RubenX. My son is 23 & as a mother I have concerns about the pressure he's under.


"But it works both ways. There are men who get hurt by women too. So we can't just skew the debate in the favour of women all of the time. There needs to be a more balanced view that accounts for both men and women." -Mike_GX1

It does happen both ways but in nowhere near equal measure. Men do not live in fear of assault from women & have to plan simple trips around their physical safety from assault. I have to look over my shoulder walking my pug on the bike path in broad daylight. A few weeks ago the rapist leapt from a bush, shoved a female cyclist from her bike, beat the crap out of her but was unable to complete the act because the area was beginning to fill up with people, so he ran off. She's disfigured. This was less than 1 km away on an upscale area. WE live in fear. Men largely don't.

I mentioned my ex-boss whose wife was a batterer. He had a home office (made things much worse) so she'd come downstairs screaming into the lab like a harridan: it was awful. Finally, he DID leave her: the police removed her from the home, he got the divorce AND custody of the 2 kids. I don't know where she wound up: hopefully NOT with some poor guy.

Another older woman my mother knew shot her elderly husband at close range with a rifle, thought she'd make it look like a robbery & collect handsome insurance. She is in prison in the Maritimes. My mother says that this woman was someone of whom the entire neighbourhood was afraid: mean & scary with a filthy mouth.

I know it happens to men & I've taught my son what signs to watch for, what NOT to fall for or sign & what to do should he ever be victimized. My daughter knows what to do as well.

If anyone wants to see stats about stay at home dads & violence by women against men, I'll gladly dig them up. Just let me know.

 
When we look at gender rules, be it actual law or society's culture, it will always fall into 2 categories:

1) Somebody is gonna be declared guilty until proven innocent.
2) Somebody is gonna be declared innocent until proven guilty.

While America's system (and most of American society) favors innocence until guilty is proven beyond doubt, when it comes to men vs woman trouble usually the man gets the axe no matter what. I have gotten the axe many time for no reason and this is why I advocate toward changes that might leave many guilty men from getting into trouble... but from what I stand, that is acceptable as long as the end result is to keep the innocent men from getting into trouble they don't deserve.

Any woman, victim or not, can get into a women shelter and the father's access to his kids is automatically severed. No judge, no police, no investigation, nothing. Not only the father suffers, but the kids lives get disrupted as well. Once in the shelter, they can't continue assisting their regular school. They are blocked from their father, and their friends and everything they know. To what end? To keep the allegedly abused woman safe? And what happens when the woman is not really in any abuse? The shelter provides free legal help, assists with welfare, SSI, etc... quite a few thousands a month. Very tempting for some women out there.

I get singled out as "woman hater" in many forums when I say that women shelter's should not exist... at least not in the way they do now. I always get reminded about the horror stories about battered women who have no where to go. But in reality, I have seen more of the opposite, with more women taking advantage of these places/services to have it their way and legally erase the father from the picture. Defenders of these centers always claim that "only *some* woman do that". Well, that's not acceptable in my book. Not half, not some, not even one innocent father should be kept away from his children without just cause.
 
I agree with all you said about changes that need to be made to the current system. It does allow for manipulative scheming sorts to take advantage of the availability of shelters & other services destined for real victims, & use them for their selfish ends. I don't see you as a woman-hater. What I do see is a tendency to take your own experiences & generalize them. It is to be expected that you'd see more of the opposite. Unless your mother, sister or daughter legitimately runs to a shelter, you'll never know or see the legitimate women who do. Those who are fraudulent are more likely to 'out' themselves by their own big mouths & history of being liars. False rape claims & false abuse claims remain very rare & the law should deal sternly with those who do.

This is why I don't support the death penalty. Far too many innocent men have been railroaded to their deaths by shoddy police work, circumstantial evidence, dodgy false witnesses, lack of financial resources for a strong defence, racial/ethnic biases & a many other factors that can impede justice. I've read stories & watched documentaries about women who've concocted elaborate tales of abuse in order to get a man into trouble (jealousy, possessiveness, revenge etc.) are usually the motives. I also saw a doc about another woman who married guys, persuaded them to take out lavish insurance policies then she'd kill them off (sometimes violently & brutally).

There's a strong fathers' rights movement here in QC. No longer do mothers automatically get custody. No longer can they claim abuse all of a sudden during divorce proceedings where there is no evidence of any kind (from a decade long marriage!) to support the allegation. Shelters need to exist BUT not as they currently do. With any social changes, it'll take time & considerable bungling & foot-dragging before society creates something viable.

Recently, a QC woman in a divorce took the kids & ran into hiding, leaving the father beside himself with worry. There had been a history of the marriage being stormy, but no evidence of abuse & no evidence of the children being harmed. Long story short: the police were tipped off as to where the woman was, she was arrested & the kids are with their father.
 
I would say I'm influenced only by my personal experiences. When I was in high school, the school was close to my mom's work. She was a janitor, at the court house. While waiting for mom to get out, I would sit on the court rooms and watch trials, hearings, depositions. As an adult, I still go to court rooms when possible and I sit there, looking at what's happening. Most of the people I talk with don't get these information first hand like I do. Instead people rely on what cases make it to the news, or are commented out there.

I can tell you that here in Florida we are a lot closer to equality than it is in my Island. PR current laws, made to counteract the latino macho culture, have effectively created a matriarchal society. But even here we are far from having a balance. The mechanisms to reach that balance are just not there.
 
"While waiting for mom to get out, I would sit on the court rooms and watch trials, hearings, depositions." -RubenX

What a coincidence! My dad practised family law & whenever there were school holidays & Pedagogical days (& in summer) I'd go to court & watch him plead cases. I heard stories that were unbelievable. What a colossal mess some people make of their life!

Some places in Africa & India are leaning towards more matriarchal systems. They found that when they gave pay to the men, it went straight into gambling & drinking. Due to the strife this created, there was a lot of domestic violence. They found that when, instead, they gave the money to the women, it went into the household. Kids were fed & the money was used responsibly.

I don't want to live in either a patriarchy or a matriarchy: I want an equitable system.
 
I don't want to live in either a patriarchy or a matriarchy: I want an equitable system.

I agree. As a father of both a girl and a boy, I don't want either side to take advantage of the other in any way.

That place in africa, make think. If that were to happen in an Americanized society, what would be the result. Women here like to go out and drink and dance as much as men.
 
Everything bad men do, women have always done, but the fact that it is less often is debatable as it largely goes unnoticed for one reason or another and that needs to be represented her for a true definition of equality, for what is a discussion about equality if both sides are not represented equally, the question was "can man and woman be equal" and in my experience, questions like this somehow dissolve into how evil men are. I encourage men to stand up to be counted and put your two cents worth in and ladies; have a closer look at the flip side of the coin ; ]

The male and female of any species will never be equal, until the male can create life inside themselves! Until then you are the superior!

This now is the way the world works, women make babies, to which men say, "**** we can't do that so we better protect the ones that can".
Man then takes the reigns and makes the decisions to protect the women from the harsh realities of life, but women think they are missing out.
Man becomes annoyed at the fact that women want everything a man has PLUS the ability to create life, now how is that fair and/ or equal he asks.

Fast forward to today, women have everything men have, they do everything men do and still complain because they also want to be treated like women.

Simple fact; you fought tooth and nail to get what you wanted and now you got it you want more, well there isn't any more! This is what mans world is like.
The male is actually not still keeping the female down, male existence has always been a fight, men fight about everything among themselves to establish a hierarchy and now you've entered that domain you have to start at the bottom like all men do and then fight to get to the top, you do not get to be the king straight out of the gate which is what women think equality is.

Men hunt and shag and eat meat and all the other manly things that men do and you want to be our equal, first off that is lowering yourself into the muck man is trying to protect you from, then that also means going up against males in competition for the same prizes, and...
That also means having to sacrifice the things that make man want to protect you, because man cannot protect a rival, which is what you now are by your own choice.

But herein lies the rub, because you want big strong, tough, unflinching manly man to do all the nurturing things that go against his nature, you tell him he simply must and then you force the role on him and then get upset when he cannot do it all as well as you can, but the few men who succeed are not lauded and worshipped for their having adapted, instead, they then suffer through similar things from women that women say they face from men, which is irony in itself and this contributes to why men are as they are today, in a limbo state and I think without clear boundaries man loses sight of what matters.

Females tell males they have to make laws for this that and the other thing and man does it against his better judgement, you can’t fish there, you can eat that, you can look at women but not touch.
This is like forcing a killer whale to have a person balance on his top lip for a few minutes at hourly intervals 365 days a year and then getting upset when the whale bites someone one time in say five years, it had to happen eventually when you subjugate another creature to your will, same goes for crocodiles or white tigers or sharks. And man. Except there are billions of men on the planet playing nice and trying to do what women want and so there are so many more of them to act out occasionally, raping or bashing their antagonists, is it right? No. but that isn't the issue here.

Look everywhere throughout history and what you will find is a man in charge and a woman behind the scenes directing him how to do it!

Men are aggressive and loud and painful and rude and forceful and so much more but man does it all for everyone to see because he knows everybody is watching, whereas women do everything they do in secret over long periods of time with nobody seeing what is really going on and there will be toes stepped on and blood spilled but it isn't ever traced back to the women because there is always some bloke there to take the blame.

You only have to look at the way men and women argue!

A man will engage in argument and shout and rant and rave but he always has a limited view of things, he is limited to the relevant facts which he shouts to make clear. He may resort to violence to emphasize his lack of argument in the face of the simple facts being blatantly ignored, but if he yells or goes ape (watch gorillas argue) then he calms down as quick and it's done, now let’s have sex and a few beers.
A woman will engage in an argument and cloud the issue with other facts and feelings that have no relevance to the matter at hand, she will trot out past indiscretions or misdemeanours as example which further belittles the man and then she will scoff at his inability to be as manipulative. Sometimes the man walks away when things become too heated (as any decent person should) and what does the woman do? Follows and continues the argument! A lot of times the woman will let the matter drop so the man thinks he has prevailed and that is when the real argument begins because that little dispute will be brought up at odd times over the coming years or in other arguments as an example or... for truly, no reason at all.

It very much seems to me that the facts are always on hand for the detriment to women in all quarter and across history but not so readily available for the same against men, it is not that it isn't atrocious what is happening to women but it is sad that that is all people are worried about when we talk about equality, there are also men in the same boat as women in every aspect of detriment perpetrated by men and while it is less that doesn’t make it any less sensational, couple that with the fact that, again, much less so, there are men in the same boat as women in every aspect of detriment perpetrated by men but instead the perpetrator is a woman, but because it doesn’t happen as often it should be dismissed?

Take any bad act that happens to a women by a man and have a woman do that same thing to a man, now apply what you know about the roles in society of males and females (and yes there is a distinct male and female identity), and honestly tell me it isn't going to be worse for the man when you put those two acts side by side, it is worse and make no mistake but, yet again, volume outweighs honesty. Because it happens more to females, by definition it must be worse.

Where are the statistics of female domestic violence, female murder, female child abuse, female pedophiles, female/ male rape?
 
Female pedophiles cause me so much anger. When an older man bangs a teenager we call it statutory rape. But when an older woman hooks up with a young boy we call it lucky and nothing happens. Does anybody stops to think about what happens to an elementary school boy after being sexualized by an older woman? From that point on, all that boy can think of is vagina vagina vagina... when he should be thinking about playing games and paying attention in school.
 
Female pedophiles cause me so much anger. When an older man bangs a teenager we call it statutory rape. But when an older woman hooks up with a young boy we call it lucky and nothing happens. Does anybody stops to think about what happens to an elementary school boy after being sexualized by an older woman? From that point on, all that boy can think of is vagina vagina vagina... when he should be thinking about playing games and paying attention in school.
If something happened between a female teacher and an elementary school boy, I think she'd be in very deep trouble and get treated almost like a male pedophile would be treated. When sexual relations take place between a high school boy and a female teacher is when she easily gets off the hook and doesn't have the same stigma male teachers receive for that same infraction.

I wouldn't say that teachers who hook up with older high school students are pedophiles, though. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to prepubescent adolescents, and 17 to 18 year old students are definitely not prepubescent. (Not to say that I don't think it's wrong; I do)
 
You're so right about that one, RubenX. Female paedophiles who assault boys are often treated softly by the law. Many studies now have been conducted assessing the effects of this type of assault on boys. Part of the problem is that few boys ever came forward with complaints. Now that children are taught that this is wrong & that they can & should tell, that they'll be believed & not shamed or punished, society is creating a climate that enables them to come speak out & know that they can get justice.

The effect on them isn't 'vagina, vagina, vagina'; at least that's not what the studies say. The effect is depression, self destruction, shame, confusion, often alienation from peers who are creeped out that he 'screwed' Mizz.Crabapple or Billy's mom. Female pedos often fool the boy into thinking that she really loves him & that she & him belong together. For her, he is often as disposable as a paper towel. The boy soon realizes he's been used and duped. Sometimes the woman tries to use him to do terrible things by convincing him that if only her monstrous husband were out of the way, they could 'be together'. The emotional manipulation, crocodile tears, the plying with alcohol are all part of the grooming.

The effects on boys is strikingly similar to the effect on girls. This is something society, I think, is afraid to admit is happening much more frequently than they're comfortable admitting. More needs to be dome to educate boys, too, about the dangers posed by this kind of woman.
 
Has the thread reached the point where we get to discuss if it's wrong to leave the toilet seat up? I used to think that if you need it down, then you take it down... if I need it up, I'll move it up. But having kids, both a girl and a boy, changed me somehow. I think it was that day after watching movies at the theater and drinking lots of soda. Boy woke up at 2am and leaved the seat up... girl woke up at 3am and splashed right inside the bowl... she was pissed (no pun intended)... now I leave the seat down and teach my boy to do the same.
 
Here are some interesting articles of where men have been victims too which I found easily in a few short minutes:
1. BBC News - Male domestic abuse victim wants equality of treatment
2. BBC - Women's domestic abuse charity helps two men a week
3. BBC News - Hidden male victims of domestic abuse
4. BBC - Newsbeat - Health - 'She'd put cigarettes out on me'
5. BBC - Newsbeat - Health - Male abuse is 'being ignored'
6. BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | South of Scotland | Male domestic abuse figures rise

A lot of the time you cannot trust the statistics because they only account for the incidents that were reported and many men will simply not report their victimisation for fear of being ridiculed for being 'weak'. And as RubenX has highlighted above - some women do use shelters they don't need and those women also push the statistics up further.

I am not advocating any of this by the way. I think quite rightly that domestic abuse is horrendous and anyone who is experiencing it aught to go to the police. No one deserves to be mal-treated by another and every individual has rights. My issue here is with the skewing of the figures which makes it appear that it is only women who suffer domestic violence which so clearly isn't the case. Let's see everyone who is affected (both men and women) getting the rightful acknowledgement and support they so rightfully need.
 
Here are some interesting articles of where men have been victims too which I found easily in a few short minutes:
1. BBC News - Male domestic abuse victim wants equality of treatment
2. BBC - Women's domestic abuse charity helps two men a week
3. BBC News - Hidden male victims of domestic abuse
4. BBC - Newsbeat - Health - 'She'd put cigarettes out on me'
5. BBC - Newsbeat - Health - Male abuse is 'being ignored'
6. BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | South of Scotland | Male domestic abuse figures rise

A lot of the time you cannot trust the statistics because they only account for the incidents that were reported and many men will simply not report their victimisation for fear of being ridiculed for being 'weak'. And as RubenX has highlighted above - some women do use shelters they don't need and those women also push the statistics up further.

I am not advocating any of this by the way. I think quite rightly that domestic abuse is horrendous and anyone who is experiencing it aught to go to the police. No one deserves to be mal-treated by another and every individual has rights. My issue here is with the skewing of the figures which makes it appear that it is only women who suffer domestic violence which so clearly isn't the case. Let's see everyone who is affected (both men and women) getting the rightful acknowledgement and support they so rightfully need.

Oh... I dated this crazy girl once who pursue me in her car... I stopped at police station and she followed me inside with a knife. Cops just laugh at me and refused to let me press charges. True Story. They only held her for a while after they got tired of looking at me running around the police station with this woman following me, knife in hand.
 
THere is gross under-reporting of female abuse of men. This is without question true. The social climate of quietly tolerating this is changing. I also know a case where a nutty obsessed woman stalked a guy, sabotaging his car, making anonymous calls to his boss telling him that the guy was about to be charged with horrible crimes, she even harassed the guy's poor wife who didn't have a clue who she was & the guy had never been involved with her. I don't know how it was ultimately resolved, but this woman was dangerous: not just kooky.

I'm not at all asserting that men are never victimized by women. They are & society must do more to stop it. There is, however, a gross imbalance as to gets victimized more often. Women live in fear of rape & sexual assault. In some cultures, mass rapes of women have become almost normative. the consequences for us are devastating. Men with daughters tend to be more sensitized to this danger & are more likely to have the courage to face it honestly rather than couch it in denial & dig up exceedingly rare stories of women who've raped men & use these to say, "See? It's happening across the board." Well, it isn't. It never has. The odds of a man getting raped by a woman are slim to none. Statistics | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network <---- This is a good source for some reliable info on sexual assault. It is scary but provides food for thought. Pretending that 'equal' means 'the same as' is foolish & a mean to avoid equitably addressing serious issues. I'm not into sweeping problems under the rug.


Rape Myths and Facts | Roger Williams University <--- here is another reliable legitimate source for info.
 
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