Excessive teasing advice gratefully received.

[Sky123]

An incident arose before when dd was singing and half dancing in the car and ds started to react so I asked him lots of specific questions about why he was reacting and tried to listen without judgement. The conclusion was that he said if people aren't acting "normally" then it means he is weird because he dosnt come from a normal family. He said she wouldn't sing of dance in school or in the street randomly so why do it in the car. It wasn't 'normal' and he wanted her to act normally or he would be weird because his family acted like that. He said it didn't make a difference even if no one saw her. She shouldn't do it because it wasn't 'normal'. Wonder if he is taking social rules literally and not distinguishing between the different ways people act in different situations? Or maybe he just dosnt want to feel like he stands out because of the bullying in the past? Either way makes sense in a way to him I think.

 

[icesyckel]

I see two possibilities (there could be more):

1. Your son really does have ASD, and he has a sufficiently high IQ that he is self-treating in a manner similar to ABA by examining what is normal and trying to replicate it himself and with those associated with him as family; OR
2. Your son does not have ASD but rather some other sort of social anxiety disorder that causes him to get stressed out in social situations and when he perceives his sister doing things that will cause your family to be perceived as social outcasts.

In both cases, it is noteworthy that there was no one there to witness the behavior other than family.

In either case, perhaps your son has reasoned logically that if he allows his sister to act atypically amongst family, then she may begin to do it elsewhere too such as in front of his peers. It is reasonable to nip this in the bud from his perspective.

Alternatively, if he is self-treating his ASD, then his sister's departure from what he perceives to be "normal" maybe frustrating. It may be that he does not understand why she is behaving this way, and he does not yet understand the concept of "normal in context." He has observed that it is not usual/normal for people to sing and dance in public places (other than dance halls, clubs, etc.). Her doing this in the car is perceived as abnormal, yet you didn't take issue with it. She is skewing his observations of what is normal, which takes painstaking effort on his part. It is frustrating because her behavior sends him "back to the drawing board," and it is easier to simply single her out as an isolated, abnormal person. If he can get her to conform to his existing perception of normal, then he does not have to change his own carefully crafted "normal" behaviors. What he lacks, if this is the case, is an understanding that what is "normal" can change or shift in various situations, contexts, and settings. Being alone with family, it is normal for one to feel freer to self-express by singing or dancing than in, say, the middle of a funeral in public. I think this is more likely than another form of social anxiety, given that the incident occurred amongst family.

However, my older sister used to try and coach her younger siblings on how not to embarrass her in public, especially around her friends. She is not on the spectrum (adopted, so my genetics are not a factor). I have long suspected she is a histrionic - always needing attention and willing to go to extreme to get it. Conversely, anything she thought my cost her that attention, she fought tooth and nail...

 

[Sky123]

Thanks for your input on this. I am finding the discussion really useful. I think he does have asd but good to consider the social anxiety angle too. When he was younger he had asd traits and was assessed but didn't appear to have any difficulties with social interaction which we found a bit confusing. In the following years, several people have mentioned poss aspergers (without us mentioning it first) and since starting high school it has become apparent that he does struggle in some areas when socialising,hence the rereferral. I have been told that sometimes with aspergers that social skills can become more difficult with more complex interactions of high school. We have an extended family history of asd (2 recently diagnosed and 1 self diagnosed) so I am suspecting it is. He does have a high iq (we had it tested as part of the assessments) and the dr said this can sometimes effect results on the ados and may be the reason if he is asd that it wasn't picked up on earlier. I will re read your post again. A lot to think about

 

[Sky123]

Btw I am only asking as a way to support him in this behaviour. I don't want to change him in anyway. Just helps to understand how we all think differently.

 

[icesyckel]

Thanks for your input on this.

Sure.

When he was younger he had asd traits and was assessed but didn't appear to have any difficulties with social interaction which we found a bit confusing.

Understandable - ASD with a high IQ typically becomes harder to diagnose over time not easier, as the child learns new coping mechanisms. Conversely, many other social anxiety disorders tend to escalate with time, particularly at adolescence.

I have been told that sometimes with aspergers that social skills can become more difficult with more complex interactions of high school.

This makes sense - HS interactions are more complex. Attwood has mentioned this in a book or paper I've read. However, usually adolescents diagnosed still exhibited social problems in early childhood that were either misdiagnosed or overlooked (e.g., disregarded as bad or odd behavior). If he was integrating well as a child because he had ASD and his high IQ allowed him to find ways to compensate, then while HS is harder/more complex socially, his ability to use his IQ as a crutch would have grown too with use. So, if he has ASD, then the complexities of HS had to have essentially "outpaced" the development of his coping mechanisms. While this is possible, alternative explanations begin to seem more likely than before.

We have an extended family history of asd (2 recently diagnosed and 1 self diagnosed) so I am suspecting it is.

Family history can be diagnostically relevant, but many (not most) with ASD have no relatives with ASD. Some of this is because there is an un-diagnosed family history, of course. However, people with ASD can and do have children who do not have ASD. However, there children are not always "normal" either. There are other conditions and disorders that could spring from the same gene pool or from some childhood experience. Possibly, the complexities of HS itself are creating a social anxiety issue. That would not be uncommon. What has changed, more than your son, is his environment.

He does have a high iq (we had it tested as part of the assessments) and the dr said this can sometimes effect results on the ados and may be the reason if he is asd that it wasn't picked up on earlier.

Mine said the same - the higher the IQ, the harder it can be to catch ASD if they are learning coping mechanisms.

 

[Cerulean]

Btw I am only asking as a way to support him in this behaviour. I don't want to change him in anyway. Just helps to understand how we all think differently.

From my understanding, parenting is difficult enough even without an ASD child in the mix. You seem like a really good mom.

 

[Sky123]

Thank you cerulean. Really appreciate your kind comment

Icesyckle - once again new and interesting information. Lots to think about. He was in a social skills group in his first year of school and he always kept himself to himself and was really really quiet (I wasn't told this about the group at the time though). However,because his behaviour didn't cause any problems, the school filled in a questionnaire for the first assessment saying he was just a very shy child. He had one or two friends at school but did prefer to keep himself to himself most of the time. Looking back I'm not so sure he didn't have social issues but just because his behaviour was no problem they weren't apparent. Having said that he didn't ever have any problems with confrontation or falling out with anyone. Mental health issues were ruled out with the first assessment. However the following year he had anxiety and panic attacks going into school. I must admit the social side of asd I find a bit confusing. Our other two relatives who have asd diagnosis don't seem to have too much trouble with peers at all but I think they have done a lot more socialising than my ds so have probably learned the skills while they were younger? I'm certainly not ruling out anything else because I don't really know enough about it. The dr said in her heart she thinks it is aspergers but she still has to complete the full assessment. I will look into social anxiety and mention it to her I think thanks for putting it on my radar.

 

[Sky123]

It's really interesting how different siblings can be. You would think because they have had the same upbringing they would be very similar personalities. Not so. So different from day one. Neither of the others have had anything to worry about (so far!). Must be some kind of physical/biological differences that make a big impact on your life as well as environment. It's a bit of an eye opener.

 

[icesyckel]

I must admit the social side of asd I find a bit confusing. Our other two relatives who have asd diagnosis don't seem to have too much trouble with peers at all but I think they have done a lot more socialising than my ds so have probably learned the skills while they were younger?

Well, high IQ+ anxiety often = self-treatment that can "mask" asperger's/HFA, as we've discussed. By the time he is an adult, even without therapy, it is possible he could progress to a point that only people are around him at certain times would notice something was off. Most people don't sense anything different about me, but 10 years ago that wouldn't have been the case.

 

[Sky123]

Thanks for all your information and advice. Really appreciate it. Have been going around in circles for ages but this thread has given me some different things to think about.

 

[icesyckel]

There's no easy way to raise any child I suspect, but I really think you'll do fine so long as you keep caring, nurturing, and correcting as best you're able. No parent can be perfect, and at some point the child has to appreciate that also and pull his weight by working with you. The only he gets, the more he hopefully will be able to see this.

 

[etbe]

High school is usually a very violent place. This is something that teachers tend to accept and not try to change in any significant way. Kids on the Autism Spectrum tend to suffer the most. By the time I got to high school I had accepted that school was always going to be horrible as I'd tried enough primary schools and changing schools never seemed to make things better. I just had to become good enough at fighting to survive it. There was another boy in my year level who seemed to be an Aspie, he was unusually weak (maybe muscle hypotonia) and was taken out of the school for his own safety after year 10. There was a girl in my year who appeared to be an Aspie, she was routinely sexually assaulted - anything that didn't involve removing clothes was apparently considered ok (I don't think the teachers could have been unaware of what was happening).

Home schooling is the best option for Aspie kids. Some parents worry about their ability to teach, that's wrong (teaching isn't difficult) and irrelevant. It's not possible to learn when you are being attacked all the time.

 

[zurb]

I think how violent high school is depends on many things. I wouldn't say I experienced heaps.... Hang on, there was the chisel that was flung in my direction for no apparent reason other than I was me, but that was the worst. Most of the bullying was fairly mild.
But I do agree homeschool is a good option. I find the real (unspoken but often implied) reason for not homeschooling is generally that the parent is more concerned about their career or standard of living than the welfare of their kid. Second issue would be a misunderstanding of what homeschool entails.

 

[icesyckel]

I agree with much of what everyone is posting, but it doesn't do any good to speak in absolutes. Not all high schools are violent, though some all. Not all teaches look the other way, though many do. Homeschooling can be a good option, though often it is not.

It is better to focus on the specific cases. Did Teacher X look the other way, did this school condone an atmosphere of violence, did this parent adequately see to his/her child's education at home, etc., etc. Governments have to engage in one-size-fits-all analyses sometimes, but we as individuals do not.

 

[etbe]

Maybe not all high schools are violent, but most are. If you assume that things are just going to be ok then probably bad things will happen. If you accept that there is a probability of bad things happening and develop plans to avoid, mitigate, and recover then things will probably work out a lot better.

If homeschooling doesn't work out they can just send their kids to school. But home schooling isn't going to have problems unless the parents have problems. I'm not aware of any cases where homeschooling went wrong but the parents should have been allowed to have custody in the first place.

Kids often don't recognise bad teachers. There was one teacher who I felt sorry for, his IQ was obviously less than 100 and he couldn't cope with running a class. I met him ~10 years later and he said "I remember you, you always got beaten up in class" and started laughing. He was a little psychopath but I didn't realise it at the time.

 

[zurb]

Homeschooling isn't for everyone. We have friends who recognise that due to personality clash it just won't work for them. We have another friend who is a teacher and couldn't mentally get past just doing school at home and so it failed. Another friend is German so even outside of Germany she struggles to see it as legal.
For us it started before they were born, and it just naturally carries on to older years. We have no regrets about our kids missing out on the bullying.

 

[Sky123]

Interesting comments. I am sorry for everyone who had such a tough time at school. It's certainly something I try to monitor. I have part time schooled my son in the past and it worked out really really well. In the current school it is not allowed. At the moment he is happy at school as he does say he has friends but it is something always on my radar to keep an eye on. I would be happy to homeschool but I thought I would give high school a try. At the moment he seems to be getting a lot of opportunities out of it. Again this can be reviewed. The teachers at this school seem really really good which has not been the case in the other school with one or two of them.

 

[Sky123]

IMO some teachers (not all,there are some wonderful ones ) could do with some training in asd and anxiety. People seem to think kids can't suffer with anxiety and that it is something only adults get. Makes a big big difference having an understanding teacher.