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Free will

I've been agnostic for a long time. so, seeing a solution via physics astounded me. a remark Richard Feynman made and then further, answers with a theory from Neil Turok really got me thinking. combine this with Paul Dira's belt trick. And with anti-matter you have a back door. Being a visual thinker really helps. Two universes. Which is really one.
 
I think one of the few things that distinguishes humans from most animals is free will. People have the capacity to decide against what is considered logical, instinctive and what social pressure, etc dictates.
 
Vindiesel said:
Do you believe in it why or why not?
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Yes. I am compelled to...!
full


I should add the following caveat, free will does not guarantee unlimited choices. Consequences (of previous choices) could "paint us into a corner" where we no longer have options on which to exercise our "free will."

If you have $100, you are free to spend it as you please. Once it is gone, so is your ability to make discretionary purchases (until you replenish your coffers).
 
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eg3210 said:
Yeah modern versions of religion are messy with free will. People talk themselves into a circle trying to explain how they think someone with perfect foreknowledge and complete control made a universal that they would know would have these exact outcomes, that are not free to change, and yet each decision made within that universe is made freely.
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I understand what you're saying but I think religious people would likely say that while "God" knows all `outcomes in advance, "God" doesn't necessarily direct the outcomes that occur due to the "free will" of human beings. I assume they'd likely argue that the outcomes therefore are "free to change"?
 
I love this topic, but my view on it has remained unchanged for a little while. If you have a cool perspective on it, especially if it directly conflicts with my understanding as described below, please share. I'd love to know how you arrived there.

The relevant will in this question is the desire of conscious beings. Free will, as colloquially used, is the supposed ability to act separately from this will (because we obviously cannot generate our own desires nor our cognitive ability which plots the most straight-forward course it can under all circumstances). Physics at the atom level and below are irrelevant unless you claim to be able to be conscious of the energy you are manipulating to manifest your behavior, if not, you're still second-rank: As a something that is being done to, rather than a something that is doing.

And therein the absurdity of free will, it requires a force from outside of the system of reality to exert influence on it and then that force needs to be part of you for it to be YOUR free will. Anything else is simply "will".
However "feeling" like you have free will is important. How we perceive our own agency and sense of control has impact on our ability to remain aware of our options and be confident in the execution of certain behavior. A man convinced he has no free will may mistakenly believe this to mean he can not overcome addiction, for example. However it is not necessary to believe in free will to remain aware of your agency. It is also not necessary to use free will as an explanation for your experience of self and how it feels to observe your own logic and decision-making in real time. Intuitive models of the self hide all the messy detail, free will is a key part of this common intuitive model and I believe that is the only reason the idea remains widely discussed. Because many people eventually come to question this intuitive model's many facets.
Ultimately though the belief or lack thereof is irrelevant for most people. Whether you understand it or don't, reasoning be damned, you will act. That's the caveat of will and its almighty push and pull of desire and fear.

Some observations of my own:
-The less a choice has immediate impact on the will, the more free it will feel to make.

(i.e. choosing at this very moment to make a thumbs up with either your left or right hand. The process is normally arbitrary enough to bypass conscious decision making but when given the framing of a test to your free will, some internal logic will work it out. You may quickly discover there's dozens of choices within the presented false binary yet without obvious reason to do any of them. I will not elaborate further as this is an excellent experiment to do to see into your own decision-making.)

-When the variables are unclear but great impact is suspected, you will feel as if you are making a great free decision.

(This is often a choice that is made twice: Once upon a quick overview of the situation (yet not always fully understood consciously that it has been made), then a lasting period of "observation" that waits for any further input that may clarify the situation. It's a fear of commitment to something vague).

-When the will seems to have made a decision, but you still experience conflict. It will feel as if you are calling upon your free will to pursue something outside of the regular will. Then upon success it will feel as if you overcame yourself to some degree.

(A case of conflicting desire, the will doesn't know patience, it only knows forced endurance. Like the opening hours of a store it awaits the exact time when one desire falls in priority below the other. Light examples include things like finishing up a task while hungry instead of immediately going to eat. On the heavier side one may feel the apprehension of reaching out to a romantic interest "until the time is right".
 
Emmanuel Kant apparently wrote a lot on this, too esoteric for me. like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
 
My brother was a big follower of philosophy I remember years ago Lee Smolin wrote a joke paper about philosophy.
really upset the community. have never since seen a reference. Like it never happened. lost all respect for the subject. The paper was brilliant really made the community look like asses.
 
Vindiesel said:
You did not make a conscious decision to be born
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Even this statement is based on belief.
Some religions and philosophies say yes.
They say you chose to be born because you have to grow or there is something to living life on this planet that you wanted to experience.
So, the cultural input begins.
I have no belief one way or the other on this because I do not follow a certain
philosophical or religious path.

The same statement could be applied to death.
Some say they know there is an afterlife.
I do not know nor pretend to know.

Whatever I believe I am or think my self-awareness is would be a belief.
Any decision or choice I make feels to be free will.

Other things in life are dictated by people or by a law.
There still is choice.
For example, if I choose to drive 100 miles per hour on a street with a 40- mph speed limit and there is a patrol car watching, I pay the price. Literally.
But I made the choice to do so.

This is how I define free will of my consciousness. Whatever that is.
Back to psychology and what is consciousness.
 
I hope this doesn't edge the rules, as I refrained from posting this in the first place:

It's religious folks who I always hear the debate or questions from concerning "free will." And every time, I pose to them that it's the same thing as asking me if I think we live in a matrix / simulation or not. It pretty much derails their preplanned talk they had in mind about it all. I derail them. It seriously is the same thing, though.

The most enjoyable dive into this concept was my childhood fav author Philip K. Dick wrote the story, Adjustment Bureau. Like most of his stories, there's a long form movie adaptation. Matt Damon is in this one. It's one of the better adaptations, at least.
 
Vindiesel said:
Then we all can agree we have partial free will and or an illusion of free will?
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Definite illusion. Perhaps we could break it with sufficient depersonalization, but that doesn't sound healthy. The normal way to be is to be unable to perceive the borders of your world, including the borders of agency. It's why we can remain immersed in our senses without losing grip on reality.
 
Outdated said:
A topic I feel very strongly about. Shamelessly stolen and converted from the Magna Carta:

Am I a human being with the power of conscious thought and the free will to act on that thought?
Or am I just a machine owned by the state? A machine that can be repaired and sent back to work or scrapped at someone else's discretion.

Try to subvert my will and you'll find an answer you don't like very much. :)
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You have an attitude issue, @Outdated. Keep up the good work. ;)
 
Magna said:
@The Pandector I referred to "religious people" because I am not such a person.
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That's all good. I'm just agreeing with others who say that the Protestant church as a whole is pretty widely divided on the issue, so guessing as to what a religious person would say is pretty tough. I also presented an alternate view. Hope you don't think I'm offended by the phrase. I just don't want to be included on either side of Calvin Divide.
 
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