Ghosting

[AprilR]

It is not about doing anything wrong. Sometimes people just stop liking you and that's it. I have been ghosted a lot of times, i have ghosted some people too bc they made me uncomfortable.

I think if a person ghosts you they probably don't care enough for you to fix the situation. Relationships are hard work for everyone and those people might already have their hands full of other problems.

It is best not do dwell on people who ghost you. It is okay to live your life without blaming yourself and knowing you did your best.

 

[AuAL]

From my perspective - based on what you've said - this is a very strange post.

You're describing something where the "internal status" is very sequence and time dependent.
Asking that question at the wrong time or out of sequence would make things worse.


Are you sure that's what you're looking for?

OK, at the last conference we both attended (shortly before the great lurgy put paid to conference attendance for a few years) she wouldn’t engage. I tried saying I was sorry for whatever upset her, but she would just walk away. Shortly after this I sent a handwritten letter asking what was wrong, and apologising for whatever I may have said or done that upset her. No response. I’m not sure on the time dependency you mention; this is one of the things I struggle with. We would generally only meet once a year at the common conference.

This is not the only example of long-term friendship collapsing and ghosting ensuing. If I could work out what it was I was doing/saying/not doing/not saying/giving the impression of etc. maybe I could avoid hurting people I care about. And yes, it hurts me, too. Taking the view that just maybe my (autistic) deficits in social skills were part of the problem allowed me to move away from some rather terminal thoughts. Am I excusing me being a not-very-nice person/poor excuse for a friend? I hope not. Can I do better in future? I hope so. I’m trying to learn how.

 

[Hypnalis]

You've mentioned writing academic papers, so you I assume you understand about assumptions.
But just for clarity, I'm a "hard science" guy.

I've said that
1. There may have been a progressive loss of trust.
2. The effect of your actions in that context are very time and sequence dependent.

It follows that there could have been (A) a time when the issue could have been resolved, (B) a time when there were no new intermediate events, and (C) a later time when the issue could not be resolved.
(That doesn't actually cover all cases (for example (A) could occur after the last intermediate event), but it's sufficient for this post).

After (C), her not bothering to talk to you, or react (even read) a letter would make sense.

As written, your first paragraph assumes that the passing of time wouldn't lead to (C).

If we can't agree on the possibility of this alternative scenario/interpretation, I don't think I can provide you with any further insight into your situation.

 

[AuAL]

You've mentioned writing academic papers, so you I assume you understand about assumptions.
But just for clarity, I'm a "hard science" guy.

I've said that
1. There may have been a progressive loss of trust.
2. The effect of your actions in that context are very time and sequence dependent.

It follows that there could have been (A) a time when the issue could have been resolved, (B) a time when there were no new intermediate events, and (C) a later time when the issue could not be resolved.
(That doesn't actually cover all cases (for example (A) could occur after the last intermediate event), but it's sufficient for this post).

After (C), her not bothering to talk to you, or react (even read) a letter would make sense.

As written, your first paragraph assumes that the passing of time wouldn't lead to (C).

If we can't agree on the possibility of this alternative scenario/interpretation, I don't think I can provide you with any further insight into your situation.

Thanks for your more extensive explanation. My first paragraph was to expand on my previous post that you considered “very strange”. It was not the only time I tried to reach out to her - there were multiple attempts, over the course of a year. I guess I was first aware there was a problem when she mentioned her grievance about perceived “social exclusion” to me at the conference in Beijing. It could be that we were already transitioning to phase C at that stage, though we did still socialise then, e.g. went to the conference dinner together. Another year later, when we next met, it was all over. My thanks for your attention to my problem and the suggestions you have offered as a lens to further understand it.

 

[Hypnalis]

So far we've only discussed a secondary problem.
That one is probably part of what causes the main issues, but I don't think it's where you should start.

I think you should be looking at the nature of your friendship(s), and what might have happened before the transition(s).

You've provided a plausible and reasonably comprehensive scenario for the "conference colleague" who ghosted you, but you actively turned away from discussing it - i.e. avoided the core issue(s): the underlying cause/effect process of the transitions.
IMO we should focus on that (you've already moved us partway back in your previous post) .

I understand it's the least comfortable sub-topic. I've suggested it anyway, according to the principle "if you want to solve a problem you have to face it".

BTW - what's the area of expertise that takes you to conferences in distant places?

 

[AuAL]

So far we've only discussed a secondary problem.
That one is probably part of what causes the main issues, but I don't think it's where you should start.

I think you should be looking at the nature of your friendship(s), and what might have happened before the transition(s).

You've provided a plausible and reasonably comprehensive scenario for the "conference colleague" who ghosted you, but you actively turned away from discussing it - i.e. avoided the core issue(s): the underlying cause/effect process of the transitions.
IMO we should focus on that (you've already moved us partway back in your previous post) .

I understand it's the least comfortable sub-topic. I've suggested it anyway, according to the principle "if you want to solve a problem you have to face it".

BTW - what's the area of expertise that takes you to conferences in distant places?

You are right - this is not ”comfortable“ territory for me. It has been an area of some anguish in this and other relationships for years. But you are also right, if I am to learn how to deal with this in future, I need to understand it. My awareness of my autism is quite recent, so I am actively trying to understand my identity and nature. Not all of this is “comfortable”.

I am a computational scientist. Retired. (Ha, ha! I still hold an academic post, am co-supervising 7 graduate students, and involved in multiple research projects.)

 

[Hypnalis]

computational scientist.

Interesting. I didn't know there was a well-defined specialty for that.
I was looking for an explanation of your missing the fact that most human-domain processes mutate over time.
I thought perhaps very small scale biology, biochem, genetics, cellular-scale stuff, etc).

Which proves you have to be careful of scenarios that are based on too little data

Something to consider:
Friendship is a step beyond "cordial professional relationship" and a couple of steps short of "Life Partnership".

A couple of necessary factors for it to develop/exist:
* You have to be "compatible"
* You have to develop a degree of mutual trust in some areas. The process of developing it doesn't matter here

Map trust onto "predictability in social matters, and confidence that the other person will prioritize your well-being where possible" for this discussion. It's not a perfect definition, but it's sufficient for this.

Trust between two people famously has the properties that you start "positive", and can increase it easily, provided it's always increasing or stable ... but you can reduce it quickly, and destroy it instantly, and once it's on the way down it's very hard to recover.
Again, not perfect, but sufficient for now.

Run that over what you've told me so far about your convention colleague.
To me, the reduce/destroy operations are clear, as are at least one missed opportunity.

Note that I'm not commenting on "your" why here. But we're talking because we both believe there might be one.

 

[thejuice]

Maybe someone talked behind your back about you to her. That can lead to an unexplained ghosting.

 

[AuAL]

Interesting. I didn't know there was a well-defined specialty for that.

There are whole international conferences and journals on it.

I was looking for an explanation of your missing the fact that most human-domain processes mutate over time.

Don’t know about this. Perhaps related to the infrequency of our interactions, and an aspect of my autism. My partner is frequently frustrated by how the whole of the outside world can “disappear” from my awareness and key aspects (things I am expected to attend to) do not “reappear” until I am reminded.

Something to consider:
Friendship is a step beyond "cordial professional relationship" and a couple of steps short of "Life Partnership".

A couple of necessary factors for it to develop/exist:
* You have to be "compatible"
* You have to develop a degree of mutual trust in some areas. The process of developing it doesn't matter here

I think I can state we had achieved “friend zone”. What we had was a step beyond “professional relationship”. (I have those, too.) Not close friend. My definition of that very closely approximates that expressed by @Neonatal RRT, and we weren’t in that space.

Map trust onto "predictability in social matters, and confidence that the other person will prioritize your well-being where possible" for this discussion. It's not a perfect definition, but it's sufficient for this.

Now we start to get wobbly. “Prioritise well-being” - I try to do that, but am I perceived as doing that? “Predictability in social matters” - whoa, I’m not sure that describes me. I don’t seek to be unpredictable, but do I know what to do to meet this criterion? If we agree to a time and place for a social meeting, I will strive to be there. If I meet you, I will greet you. (Sorry, I may not remember your name.) I have switched on Emergency Bypass so my phone rings if my partner calls. (It is perpetually in silent mode, so I may not answer when you call.) You may need to help me here.

Run that over what you've told me so far about your convention colleague.
To me, the reduce/destroy operations are clear, as are at least one missed opportunity.

I’m not trying to be obtuse, but you may need to clarify these for me. Social skills deficits much? I’m really trying to work this out. (I could also be seeing these from a perspective that gives me less agency, another problem of mine. I am very reluctant to intervene/interrupt in group situations.) Give me a map, I’ll get you from A to B, and can drive you there from memory after seeing the map for a minute. Give me a blank sheet of paper and I’m lost. (But will try to muddle my way through. Not always successfully, it would seem, if we take the metaphor out of the visual thinking realm.)

 

[Hypnalis]

Run that over what you've told me so far about your convention colleague.

That means take the three ideas I presented { Compatibility; Trust, (gaining trust; losing trust) }, apply them to the case we've been discussing ("conference colleague"), and see if you can recognize "cause and effect factors" that I believe you missed when you wrote those posts.

To me, the reduce/destroy operations are clear, as are at least one missed opportunity.

This means: I can see an explanation here.
Of course I could be wrong. Or I could be right, but you still can't see anything
We need to calibrate before we can continue.

We're doing this:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a33224851/how-many-circles-viral-coffer-illusion/

 

[AuAL]

That means take the three ideas I presented { Compatibility; Trust, (gaining trust; losing trust) }, apply them to the case we've been discussing ("conference colleague"), and see if you can recognize "cause and effect factors" that I believe you missed when you wrote those posts.


This means: I can see an explanation here.
Of course I could be wrong. Or I could be right, but you still can't see anything
We need to calibrate before we can continue.

We're doing this:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a33224851/how-many-circles-viral-coffer-illusion/

I can see someone getting upset about my failure with the journal reviewing. I am a chronic procrastinator. (I recently did a bit of joinery, fitting trim in a couple of rooms of my house. The rooms were originally renovated 12 years ago…)
Not inviting someone to join a group going to the beach? It was a group thing, not my social event, I wasn’t staying at the same hotel and didn’t know where she was. But it obviously upset her because she complained about it 12 months later (which is when I found out it upset her.) I tried to invite her to join in some of our social outings then, but she refused.
I apologised on both occasions.
In the following year I did insist that she accept co-authorship on a journal paper with me and one of my graduate students. She was reluctant but I said our discussions during a brief sabbatical at her institution some years before had been instrumental in arriving at the outcomes we were reporting. I can’t see how this should have a negative impact on our friendship.
Step forward 3 years to our next “meeting” in person - I’m a ghost. Not “How have things been going, what are you working on now?” as was the case with other colleagues there who I had not seen for years, but “turn her back and walk away.” I tried to find out what was wrong, bought a card to apologise (for whatever it was) and handed it to her. Not a word.
So maybe I can, in retrospect, see some of the cause and effect factors? (I struggle with seeing her response as proportionate but maybe that’s on me, too.)
The opportunity to fix it? I’m stuck on when and how.
BTW, with the coffer illusion - when told there are circles I can adjust my vision and do see them.

 

[AuAL]

Step forward 3 years to our next “meeting” in person - I’m a ghost.

Sorry, I muddled my time line. This was one year after the joint paper, two years after our last meeting in person. (She still wasn’t talking to me when I next saw her at a conference, a further 2 years later.)

 

[Hypnalis]

You're starting to see it, which is progress.

A suggestion though: stop considering your "internal" mitigating factors like procrastination, and over-valuing things like the co-authorship. Acting to defend your own self-image doesn't help maintain a relationship.
And I do mean stop. Blocking part of your internal "identity preserving" narrative isn't easy, but that's part of what you're asking for.

The problem with hiding behind your own nature is that it has no relevance to your question, which is "why do my friends ghost me?", which is about other people's motivations. Simple answers (like "you don't treat them as friends" which is accurate and concise, but shallow) bypass the real "why" rather than addressing it in a way that's "actionable".

Your story ("I can't help myself because 'X, Y, Z'") does the same thing from the inside. It's a psychological trick to avoid taking personal responsibility. Of course everyone does this - humans are hard-wired to operate that way.
But adults should fight it when it's affecting something important.

What I'm trying to do is help you see this from the other person's perspective. You need to be able to answer "how did I fail them?", and you need to identify every occasion when you did so (a) among what you've told me, then (b) go back through your memory and "look" for others. It will hurt - but even this late in the game, probably less than not addressing the issue.

As for when your ex-friend created an opportunity to reconcile:

she mentioned her grievance about perceived “social exclusion” to me at the conference in Beijing

BTW - that "perceived" is a deflection, probably for yourself as well as the audience (readers here). It comes under the "stop" suggestion above.

When a friend makes a point of sharing their concerns about the friendship, with a very personal example, it's not about you, She told you "I (friend) was hurt by your not considering my interests, and it's affecting my side of our relationship".

It would nuke the friendship on the spot if you told her e.g.- "It wasn't my (AuAL's) fault", or "you're imagining it", or "it's not my job to organize your social life".

The correct response starts with a sincere and unreserved apology.
NB: unreserved doesn't mean "I'm a little bit sorry, but it's mostly because of something beyond my control: I'm an Aspie". That information would come later, perhaps during a discussion over coffee.
Your job as part of offering a sincere apology is to help the other person explain their grievance, and to promise to do better (and you need to mean it - this kind of opportunity won't come twice).

A closing comment:

I know I'm "leaning in" a bit too much here, but it's deliberate and I won't be apologizing for it.

IMO you're in denial, and I'm assuming the thinking and behavior go back to your early adulthood.
Given that, my accepting your narrative at face value would just enable you to continue along the well-worn path.

What's possible in a text-only place like this is to push back firmly. Which means I'm being critical to a degree that definitely breaks "dinner party conversation rules"

It's easy to get me me to stop though: don't respond, or tell me to stop.

 

[JoSchi]

I have one good friend. He accepts that I'm not always easy, correct him a lot or get mad when things go different than planned. I seem not to be super cooperative at every moment or even unfriendly sometimes, which makes it hard for people to like me as I am. I got used to it and currently working to make those things better.
Guess it is a problem for a lot of us.

 

[AuAL]

@Hypnalis, thanks for your candid comments - you have helped me realise a number of things. I will keep trying to improve my understanding. (And my honesty with myself.)

 

[thejuice]

I can see someone getting upset about my failure with the journal reviewing. I am a chronic procrastinator. (I recently did a bit of joinery, fitting trim in a couple of rooms of my house. The rooms were originally renovated 12 years ago…)
Not inviting someone to join a group going to the beach? It was a group thing, not my social event, I wasn’t staying at the same hotel and didn’t know where she was. But it obviously upset her because she complained about it 12 months later (which is when I found out it upset her.) I tried to invite her to join in some of our social outings then, but she refused.
I apologised on both occasions.
In the following year I did insist that she accept co-authorship on a journal paper with me and one of my graduate students. She was reluctant but I said our discussions during a brief sabbatical at her institution some years before had been instrumental in arriving at the outcomes we were reporting. I can’t see how this should have a negative impact on our friendship.
Step forward 3 years to our next “meeting” in person - I’m a ghost. Not “How have things been going, what are you working on now?” as was the case with other colleagues there who I had not seen for years, but “turn her back and walk away.” I tried to find out what was wrong, bought a card to apologise (for whatever it was) and handed it to her. Not a word.
So maybe I can, in retrospect, see some of the cause and effect factors? (I struggle with seeing her response as proportionate but maybe that’s on me, too.)
The opportunity to fix it? I’m stuck on when and how.
BTW, with the coffer illusion - when told there are circles I can adjust my vision and do see them.

You've done nothing wrong and she sounds like a pain in the neck. In my opinion you sound like a decent , honourable person, she has the behaviour of someone with a personality problem. Not worth the rumination, trying to logic with illogical people. Pull away.