Gibes and bigotry against “NT”s

[Kalinychta]

Most of the people I love and admire are so-called “neurotypicals.” Friends, family, writers, scientists, artists, radicals, outcasts, philosophers, poets, etc. - the vast, vast, vast majority are not autistic. Honestly I think so many people on the forum need to check themselves. Autistic people aren’t special. We’re not superior. We’re not better.

We’re just people.

The very term “neurotypical” is rather insulting, if not downright bigoted, if you think about it. You’re autistic - you’re not cooler, you’re not more special, you’re not better, you’re not smarter, you’re not more artistic, you’re not funnier, you’re not better in any way at all.

Seriously, more people on the forum need to start challenging biased and unfair remarks made about “neurotypicals.” I can’t be the only one whose hackles go up when I see biased comments. You’re talking about my sister. About my niece. About my parents and my friends and my coworkers and so many people in the world whom I admire and look up to.

 

[Luca]

I actually have very few autistic friends in real life anymore, the majority are NT, for what it's worth. I have discussed this on here as well. Friendships between autistic people and neurotypicals can, and do, work. The two "sides" are not at war or forbidden from interacting lol...

And I thought the mods had gotten rid of all the posts that were overtly bashing neurotypicals. Nitro and tree have said that that isn't allowed here, as far as I know, or at least very much discouraged. tree always recommends reporting offensive threads, there have been a lot that I've reported and it was taken care of appropriately (offensive posts in general, not necessarily on this topic)
There have been a couple of spicy threads lately...

I did make a post the other day saying that there ARE some very special people in this community though... not because they're autistic, or NT, but because they're unique... and they make coming back here worth putting up with some of the crappier stuff.

 

[Suzanne]

I am the only one on the spectrum, amongst those who are not and it is hard being around some who don't want to even try to understand; yet, I have had to live my life, trying to understand them, so coming here, is a release from that and in truth, why should we not be that way; as long as there is no foul language?

My husband often is derisive of me. Sayng things like: well, you are not a neurotypical, so you would not understand. It is hard living with you, because you are on the spectrum. Why can't you be a neurotyical? I, in truth say: it is hard living with you, because you are a neurotypical and thus, we are in a similar situation and should learn to coexist in a more friendly way.

I also say, when he has said: you should learn to adapt to our ways. I then say: since the age of 4, I have tried to adapt to the nt way, without even knowing I am on the spectrum.

In truth, the word neurotypical is not derisive, it is the the way it is said ie the intentions of the heart, which states where it is bigoted.

 

[Kalinychta]

I am the only one on the spectrum, amongst those who are not and it is hard being around some who don't want to even try to understand; yet, I have had to live my life, trying to understand them, so coming here, is a release from that and in truth, why should we not be that way; as long as there is no foul language?

My husband often is derisive of me. Sayng things like: well, you are not a neurotypical, so you would not understand. It is hard living with you, because you are on the spectrum. Why can't you be a neurotyical? I, in truth say: it is hard living with you, because you are a neurotypical and thus, we are in a similar situation and should learn to coexist in a more friendly way.

I also say, when he has said: you should learn to adapt to our ways. I then say: since the age of 4, I have tried to adapt to the nt way, without even knowing I am on the spectrum.

In truth, the word neurotypical is not derisive, it is the the way it is said ie the intentions of the heart, which states where it is bigoted.

I say: demand that your husband go to marriage counseling with you and that he learn to abolish his abusive behavior, and if he doesn’t, then leave his ass. In the meantime, I stand by what I wrote: I don’t believe that autistic people have any rational grounds to be bigoted or unfair to people who are not autistic.

 

[Misery]

you should learn to adapt to our ways

Now I aint an expert, but I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that this here is often the real source of the problem for many on the spectrum.

Being stuck in a world run by too many people who A: dont understand, B: refuse to even try to understand, and then follow those up with C: demand you to conform... or else. And often, they wont try to help with C there. Or even give you a manual. Or a logical reason for WHY. This often leads to D: a lot of yelling and insults because you didnt magically fall into line with C.

Too much of that over too long and it's inevitable, for many, that resentment builds up.


Well, that's my theory anyway.

I personally have nothing against NTs (and everyone in my life outside of this forum is one). However I *will* rant about what I always refer to as "the general public", and there's a difference.

If you've ever worked retail... you already know what I mean. I dont need to explain. But I do want to emphasize the fact that NDs can be part of that rude unpleasantness too. And it's important to always remember that.


I've lost track of where I was going with this. Yay, distractions!

 

[Gerontius]

Neurotypical is not derogatory, because typical isn't derogatory unless someone uses it as such. It's closer to a baseline mean or median value.

However, the idea of autistic supremacy is as repellent as any sex or color supremacy

 

[Rodafina]

The two "sides" are not at war or forbidden from interacting

You ended this with LOL and perhaps it was offered with a bit of jest, but I think this is the key here.

Anytime two sides have been pitted as adversaries, hypocrisy is a very real risk. At the very least each one of us should treat those who are different from us the same way we wish to be treated. If we wish to be understood for exactly who we are, then we ought to do the same for others even if some have made it difficult for some of us.

It seems a recurring theme in many societies when there are two groups and one feels they have been more hurt and mistreated by the other, some sort of reciprocal vengeance or loathing feels in order. This is where the hypocrisy comes in, I think.

@Kalinychta, I think this is a courageous and important topic to address. And yet at the same time, you bring us back to the most basic notions of living peaceably together.

 

[Nitro]

As a staff member, I do battle with the supremacy stances on a regular basis.
So many that complain about division are the first to point it out.

We are not better or lesser than the status quo, we are both merely different.

It astounds me how many feel feel that either side of the fence are able to do complex psych evaluations at a glance.
That to me is utter nonsense.

 

[Knower of nothing]

I love the golden rule but it is sadly broken as a real moral ideal. It is made for people without empathy, to make them understand and apply the concept of it without actually having it. Super useful, groundbreaking social value. But not a real moral ideal. In objective morality there can be no assumptions made about what a person is or isn't okay with. Especially not based on the standards of what YOU are okay with. We have language, we can communicate. We should use that instead, but it takes more resources and requires a level of intelligence and empathy to both understand and care about what others express so it is not available to ALL people and this too should be understood.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Mmm, its an interesting topic.

When I entered this forum I had an idealized idea about autists like being better in the sense of less mean. Less envy, friendlier, more tolerant.

Slowly I discovered there are also mean people in the autist comunity, even here, that is a very well moderated forum with great community.

And at the same time I have learn that NT behaves not only mean towards ND, but even do atrocities towards them.

So where lies the very fine line of the truth?

Is saying that we are all equally good/bad the truth? Is it? Or is it another simplification?

I have never seen any ABA equivalent program made by NDs towards NT. Where we take NT childs and apply them behavour therapy 8h/day to "improve" their focus, develop personal interests and learn to stim properly.

I have not seen any stadistic that shows that most NT raised by ND people develop Trauma. Most autists do develop Trauma despite trauma has nothing to do with autism.

It may exist, but I have not heard of NDs doing bulling to NT childs untill they suicide.

Do this means autists are better? Or we would discriminate others exactly as NT discriminate if we were the majority?

I have certanly see in this forum very narrow ideas of men towards women that leads me to think that some members would use and abuse them in a very similar way NTs do. So, is it there any difference?

I dont know the answer. I just dont think the truth will be that we are just all equal.

Its clear to me that we are different.

Edit: To make things even more complex ND include Psycopaths...

 

[Darkkin]

A word in itself is inert. Neuro (dealing with the nervous system). Typical (indicating a predicated and predictable pattern of function). Neurotypical. Neurologically normal.

Neurodivergent: Divergent (indicating a devation from predictable pattern and function, atypical, abnormal, often a deficit or defective form of function).

One describes the typical, one the atypical. To ascribe the definition of bigoted to one term and not the other solely because it is 'offensive' to certain people and remove the terms, which are themselves benign and hyperspecific to defining the context of atypical neurological patterns is a bit close minded. Think banning books...

See the BEHAVIOUR, say something. Don't blame the BEHAVIOUR on a word the someone wants to view as an insult. Label the word. Remove it. Ever hear of NEW SPEAK. Take an accurate term widely accepted within the ND community and say using it victimizes normal people is a load of self righteous soap box drivel. We create words and archetypes to understand things.

If someone stood up and said, 'Stop using the word extrovert, it offends me.' Pause for a minute and really consider what you would think of that person. These are huge archetype class words used within a sociological basis, yet because one person decides it is bigoted, no one should be allowed to use the term because the word defines the behaviour, right?

The term introvert wasn't removed from the DSM until 2012. Until then it was a term that could only be described as a pathological defect.

NO IT DOESN'T.

This is how words become stigmatized, bastardized and their actually meanings and historical context lost.

Neurotypical is accepted cannon within the psychological and ND communities. Want to talk to the publishing industry and tell them they need to edit and annotate every book and paper published using the term neurotypical since 1998?

Address the BEHAVIOUR. Stop blaming it on a word that is not designed to belittle, berate or deride. It was only ever created to describe a biologically normal neurological function.

There are words that are DELIBERATELY created to be derogatory. Consider the difference and address the behaviour of the individual before assigning the term bigoted to a core term within the ND community and offering no alternative as to how to define the context of neurologically normal individual within discussions.

 

[Rodafina]

It may exist, but I have not heard of NDs doing bulling to NT childs untill they suicide.

@Atrapa Almas, I honor all your points above and I think you make a very interesting case. I just wanted to chime in here with recognition for other types of children that are at huge risk for suicide. Transgender kids are the ones that come to mind. So sadly, this terrible thing of bullying others I believe is universal.

 

[LadyS]

Being introverted, lefthanded, ND, and then also in a culture (mine specifically) that still treats all of these as if they're inferior, it's a real struggle to be objective and fair, empathetic but not bitter. I say, it's okay to vent your frustrations against the status quo, but maintain the balance by realizing that no person or group is a true enemy. Lack of understanding which is mainly in part by the way society tries to simplify things in order to function is the real culprit.

If you don't want others to make assumptions about you for your neurodivergence, then you really can't do the same to neurotypicals. Avoid words like ALL and THEY and THEM. Simple.

 

[Darkkin]

It isn't hard to be a decent human being. I generally try to avoid most people on principle. My point is don't start blaming other people's crappy actions on a word that is as common in the ND community as cat is in everyday life.

It is at the root of ignorance led censorship. It is akin to someone saying they find the word predator is derogatory toward tigers or prey demeaning toward deer.

The tiger and the deer don't care about the terms. They are themselves. They exist, but within nature hierarchies have always existed. Predator and prey. The functional reality of a word doesn't go away just because it is deemed 'bigoted' because it denotes the characteristics of something.

HOW one uses a tool is far more important than what one calls the tool.

A screw driver can still be a murder weapon.

 

[AprilR]

I think a lot of the neurptypical hate comes as a backlash from the systematic demonization and inhumane treatment against autistic people.

I don't think its right to hate anyone bc of something they can't control, but its normal to hate people because of their bad behavior

 

[Judge]

neurotypical

adjective​

1. Having a normal (usual, ordinary) ability to process linguistic information and social cues; used especially as an antonym for autistic.

I have no issues with using such an adjective based on this explanation. Though I also recognize that I cannot control how others choose to use such a term, whether with neutral or negative connotations.

However I fundamentally object to any insinuation or assertion that one can be inherently superior to others in some pathological sense. A perspective that is not only preposterous, but historically dangerous to society as a whole.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I don’t believe that autistic people have any rational grounds to be bigoted or unfair to people who are not autistic.

I think that we need to be a bit more discriminating in our thoughts. However, to suggest there isn't rational grounds is a loss of perspective, but I do agree with the moral argument.

I think what some of us are having difficulty with is trying to satisfy that argument in the face our personal truths and life experiences. I think being on the receiving end of marginalizing behaviors,...however subtle or overt,...throughout one's life, reinforces a cognitive bias against neurotypicals.

Now, having said that,...people, in general, are attracted to others who are happy, positive, extroverted, and are capable. If you're not,...then, people, in general, tend to shy away from you. If you have behavioral "tics", psychiatric, or psychological issues,...they really try to avoid you. Human beings, in general,...even folks educated in these topics,...tend to marginalize the affected person. To some extent,...that's on us. We might not be able to mask well enough to put forth this persona,...and why should we not be ourselves?

In my 56 years, I have NEVER,...not once,...have I not had someone I've interacted with marginalize me in some subtle way. They sense a "difference" and it psychologically triggers the amygdala. My family, my "friends", even my wife and children, the people at the gym, the people at school, the people I work with. Now,...that's MY experience,...those are my monkeys and my circus. Those same people,...overall good people,...educated,...polite,...but still manage to have this underlying edge of being uncomfortable. I am often,...several times a week,...experiencing marginalizing behaviors.

At the same time, I am at the age where I am so used to it that I often get out in front of it and just say, "I am autistic",...and then let the chips fall where they may. Then I know who has the character to know and still be pleasant around me,...and the others who would rather avoid me because I am autistic,...I don't need the later, so good riddance.

I guess, for me, it comes down to MY threshold for BS. I can take a lot of BS and discomfort, both mentally and physically. Others here might have a much lower threshold.

The question is, despite our experience with all of this, knowing that, obviously, these behaviors are often rooted in the primal, animal brain,...instinctual,...often unconscious, "Should we be responding in an equally marginalizing, bigoted way?" Morally, I think the answer would be "No".

 

[Aspychata]

We should always challenge our beliefs. Thank you for making me think harder about this. I really appreciate this. I think l just feel beat down by being a female first. I believe we need to all take accountability for who we are, be it NT or ND.

I think in a world where ND means feeling like a victim due to things outside of my control, l want to love myself but it isn't a grandiose love, it's a feeling accepted love that l don't have to stress about not fitting in with whatever group of people l don't fit in with, (NT, NB, NE, NN), because those norms don't seem to make sense to me particularly. We all can coexist. In truth, my preoccupation with patterns, repetition, masking really doesn't make me feel special. More like l am in a OCD mind prison. I guess we can flip the title to Gibes and bigotry against ND also.

Great post, looking forward to more responses from our forum.

 

[Aspychata]

I think a lot of the neurptypical hate comes as a backlash from the systematic demonization and inhumane treatment against autistic people.

I don't think its right to hate anyone bc of something they can't control, but its normal to hate people because of their bad behavior

And systematic and inhumane treatment against woman, different types of people in general, handicapped people, elderly, and so on. We are just another subset on that list.

 

[Darkkin]

People definitely deserve respect and kindness, but respect their differences (challenges) as well. Don't jump to conclusions about a word and put focus on a term instead of the action and the individual.