Has anyone else experienced whenever someone makes an insensitive/bigoted comment to you or someone else only to justify it with rational arguments?

[Dagan]

I feel like a lot of folks do that "just" to have debates and arguments. I think they are addicted to being hateful and/or talking loud.

 

[Magna]

The only experiences I've had in memory where someone makes a bigoted comment and then backs up their bigotry with "rational arguments" is related to religion. In the religion I was raised in (Catholicism), the practice of homosexuality is considered a "grave sin" (ie fry in hell). Therefore Catholics in my experience can be bigoted against homosexuals but back up that bigotry with the teachings on the subject found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. "Don't blame me for my opinions...take it up with God." kind of thing.

 

[Judge]

Sounds like a loaded question.

That determining what constitutes a "rational argument" can be quite subjective. Take that out of the equation and sure, I've experienced discrimination of one type or another.

Race, creed, age....oh yeah. Just not the sort of things that make for a rational argument, IMO.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I never concern myself with other's behavior or opinions, not the world's policeman.

 

[Neri]

I do

note: you don’t need to reply to this thread if you don’t want to. Also if you do, please be nice and understanding. Thank you.

I’ve seen this often in abusive relationships and even in online debates where someone will talk crap about you or another person and will make so-called rational excuses for their bad behavior to make them appear as if they’re in the right.

They’ll attempt to get you mad by being manipulative and projecting blame onto you for getting “offended” or “mad” especially if you have a very good reason to feel that way. Then when finally confront them and tell them they’re wrong for what they said, they’ll deny anything wrong they’ve done and instead will claim what they said is just a “disagreement” and how you just got “upset” over something you “asked” for. THEN they will twist the story and portray you as the bully meanwhile they view themselves as the innocent bystander (aka the “all I said was…” card).

In other words, they demonize you and others’ individuality and experiences, while they minimize their own bad behavior with the argument which describes itself in a nutshell as this: “I will justify my wrongful actions by talking out of my ass, making my arguments appear far more rational, and placing labels onto my opponent and accuse them of doing something that I did”. These are the kinds of people that will NEVER shut up, no matter how much effort you take to prove them wrong. They’ll say you just want opinions that align with your own and cannot handle criticism and will claim that they’re just giving you a “reality check”.

I myself have experienced this ALL THE TIME. I cut off contact with such people because you can NEVER win an argument, no matter how hard you try, and they do nothing but drain your already low energy. They’ll act like they’re holier than thou yet when you stand up for yourself they’ll go DARVO (Deny-Argue-Reverse Victim and Offender) on you. They can act like they’re not offended in the slightest because they’re “rational” and frame you as the bad guy because you dared to argue their point when you “know” they’re actually “right” and speaking the “truth” so therefore YOU must be the one who’s offended, but in actuality, they’re just insecure.

You can insert any sort of bigotry such as racism, misogyny, ableism, homophobia, etc. and it will all align to the same outcome. In other words “how dare you have a voice?! Therefore I will frame you as privileged and delusional so your argument will be pointless so that I can be right”. No matter how much you ignore them, they will never stop until they’re caught.

So that’s all I got to say, I really needed to get this off my chest as I’m currently dealing with a narcissistic internet troll who claims to be more rational than I am. So anyways, have you experienced anything similar?

I do feel for you. It sounds a lot like the narcissistic behaviour I've been subject to a lot of. I think first of all practising whatever level of self compassion you can, is a good approach.

I know for myself it's been very humbling to realise that some people don't want to change, aren't willing to modify their behaviour to build any kind of healthy relationship with you and that in this instance, you have no power other than to address how you respond, internally.

If you've said your bit and didn't het the rrsponse you would like, you can take comfort in knowing that you tried. You were honest enough and forthright to "speak your truth" and you have no power in how the other person responds. That's on them.

You had the courage and the care to both to engage with them, but they didn't appreciate where you were coming from, and you can work on being ok with that. It might be that they have a lot of internalized shame and they get defensive because the shame is so great they feel compelled to try to justify themselves and defend themselves. Whatever it is it's not your problem. Your problem is how it's left you feeling and you know what? There is at least one positive in that, that I can see, and that is that you get to learn something about yourself and your point of personal power is that you can work on responding to your own hurt feelings in a compassionate way. So you are sensitive. It is hard being quote unquote a sensitive person and yet there are lots of positives to it. You have gifts in that. You will develop them if you figure out how to manage your sensitivity in a way that honours that.

I've tried the "white knuckling"approach and it didn't work for me. I just got severe burn out and cptsd, in the long run and it took years to get well again, as I was with a narcissistic person for 20 years because I got pregnant to them at the age of 17. Long story, but, the point is, you have to find out how you want to proceed with kindness towards yourself, because otherwise the unkindness in the world can cause untold damage.

Figuring out where it feels good to put our focus and energy is part of that.

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but sometimes, when we feel hurt, it doesn't hurt to be reminded.

You took a proactive step in posting on this forum and it was quite courageous of you, in my opinion, and shows you taking care of yourself in attempting to get some support and guidance.

There are multiple ways you can proceed from here. I've found journalling about upsetting stuff can really help. And I turn to the arts to give my wounded heart solace. I draw. I sing. I have been known to go dancing. I write poetry at times. All of this helps this "sensitive soul" enormously. But you do you. You will figure out how to harness your sensitivity for your and other's good as you commit to a path of self kindness and self care.

We can only change the world by changing ourselves and we often only have power in how we respond to things and not to "fix" or overcome the injustices in the world.

I am one of those sensitive souls who became so ill from narcissistic abuse that I've had to put years into recovery because I subjected myself to too much of it. I did it for honourable reasons and I couldn't see a way out for so many years and so I know, too well, the kind of communication tactics you speak of, that are just so frustrating and difficult to deal with.

There is and was no way for me to triumph in that situation. No amount of logic or reason. No appealing to their compassion or morality, no way for any of my feedback to penetrate. All they wanted was admiration or fear and to disempower me because they perceived me as a threat if I didn't agree with them or submit to their "superiority" and greater powerfulness.

In the beginning they shamed me, asking "why are you such a wimp?". I was a teenage autistic girl, at the time and they were a man in their late thirties. In the end I was "too strong" for them, their words. There is no winning with people with narcissistic selfhood wounds. They have an injured sense of self, usually incurred in childhood through both indulgence and lack of boundaries from their caregivers, and emotional neglect. They don't know any better, yet, and aren't ready to learn.

So the kindest thing is to bow out. Give them time to figure things out in their own time and tend to your own mental health. Be the example rather than wasting your energy trying to change someone else's mind, who doesn't appreciate the effort you are putting into them.

You are worth your own time and only you can really soothe yourself. These days I actively stim to soothe myself. I can't mask all the time like I used to. I got too burnt out. I do it descretely. I stroke my fingers or arms sometimes when the anxiety gets to me. I actively comfort myself, somatically and it helps.

I eventually stopped hurting so much over this person's badmouthing me to others because they are going to do what they do and that is their modus operanti and being kind to myself is putting energy into accepting the things I can't change and being more discerning about who and what I want to put my attention and energy into.

I hope some of this helps and if its not helpful, don't give it another thought.
If any of it isn't clear, please feel free to ask me for clarification.

 

[2Fragile2TakeCriticism]

I do

I do feel for you. It sounds a lot like the narcissistic behaviour I've been subject to a lot of. I think first of all practising whatever level of self compassion you can, is a good approach.

I know for myself it's been very humbling to realise that some people don't want to change, aren't willing to modify their behaviour to build any kind of healthy relationship with you and that in this instance, you have no power other than to address how you respond, internally.

If you've said your bit and didn't het the rrsponse you would like, you can take comfort in knowing that you tried. You were honest enough and forthright to "speak your truth" and you have no power in how the other person responds. That's on them.

You had the courage and the care to both to engage with them, but they didn't appreciate where you were coming from, and you can work on being ok with that. It might be that they have a lot of internalized shame and they get defensive because the shame is so great they feel compelled to try to justify themselves and defend themselves. Whatever it is it's not your problem. Your problem is how it's left you feeling and you know what? There is at least one positive in that, that I can see, and that is that you get to learn something about yourself and your point of personal power is that you can work on responding to your own hurt feelings in a compassionate way. So you are sensitive. It is hard being quote unquote a sensitive person and yet there are lots of positives to it. You have gifts in that. You will develop them if you figure out how to manage your sensitivity in a way that honours that.

I've tried the "white knuckling"approach and it didn't work for me. I just got severe burn out and cptsd, in the long run and it took years to get well again, as I was with a narcissistic person for 20 years because I got pregnant to them at the age of 17. Long story, but, the point is, you have to find out how you want to proceed with kindness towards yourself, because otherwise the unkindness in the world can cause untold damage.

Figuring out where it feels good to put our focus and energy is part of that.

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but sometimes, when we feel hurt, it doesn't hurt to be reminded.

You took a proactive step in posting on this forum and it was quite courageous of you, in my opinion, and shows you taking care of yourself in attempting to get some support and guidance.

There are multiple ways you can proceed from here. I've found journalling about upsetting stuff can really help. And I turn to the arts to give my wounded heart solace. I draw. I sing. I have been known to go dancing. I write poetry at times. All of this helps this "sensitive soul" enormously. But you do you. You will figure out how to harness your sensitivity for your and other's good as you commit to a path of self kindness and self care.

We can only change the world by changing ourselves and we often only have power in how we respond to things and not to "fix" or overcome the injustices in the world.

I am one of those sensitive souls who became so ill from narcissistic abuse that I've had to put years into recovery because I subjected myself to too much of it. I did it for honourable reasons and I couldn't see a way out for so many years and so I know, too well, the kind of communication tactics you speak of, that are just so frustrating and difficult to deal with.

There is and was no way for me to triumph in that situation. No amount of logic or reason. No appealing to their compassion or morality, no way for any of my feedback to penetrate. All they wanted was admiration or fear and to disempower me because they perceived me as a threat if I didn't agree with them or submit to their "superiority" and greater powerfulness.

In the beginning they shamed me, asking "why are you such a wimp?". I was a teenage autistic girl, at the time and they were a man in their late thirties. In the end I was "too strong" for them, their words. There is no winning with people with narcissistic selfhood wounds. They have an injured sense of self, usually incurred in childhood through both indulgence and lack of boundaries from their caregivers, and emotional neglect. They don't know any better, yet, and aren't ready to learn.

So the kindest thing is to bow out. Give them time to figure things out in their own time and tend to your own mental health. Be the example rather than wasting your energy trying to change someone else's mind, who doesn't appreciate the effort you are putting into them.

You are worth your own time and only you can really soothe yourself. These days I actively stim to soothe myself. I can't mask all the time like I used to. I got too burnt out. I do it descretely. I stroke my fingers or arms sometimes when the anxiety gets to me. I actively comfort myself, somatically and it helps.

I eventually stopped hurting so much over this person's badmouthing me to others because they are going to do what they do and that is their modus operanti and being kind to myself is putting energy into accepting the things I can't change and being more discerning about who and what I want to put my attention and energy into.

I hope some of this helps and if its not helpful, don't give it another thought.
If any of it isn't clear, please feel free to ask me for clarification.

I’m glad you managed to move forward. The situation I was referring to was experiencing a bad apple in an HSP forum, usually a lot of people there are nice. But the behavior is nothing new.

Thank you very much for your support, I gladly appreciate it.

 

[Neri]

I’m glad you managed to move forward. The situation I was referring to was experiencing a bad apple in an HSP forum, usually a lot of people there are nice. But the behavior is nothing new.

Thank you very much for your support, I gladly appreciate it.

You are very welcome . It was actually cathartic and reparative to write that. It probably helped me more than it helped you.

 

[2Fragile2TakeCriticism]

You are very welcome . It was actually cathartic and reparative to write that. It probably helped me more than it helped you.

Maybe so. The thing is though our processing is different, and I’m trying to ignore what I can but it keeps coming back to me. I feel the best way I can do to reduce these thoughts is to talk it out. Which usually works for me.

 

[Neri]

Maybe so. The thing is though our processing is different, and I’m trying to ignore what I can but it keeps coming back to me. I feel the best way I can do to reduce these thoughts is to talk it out. Which usually works for me.

Well, feel free to vent more if that helps. I agree. I find it helpful to talk things out. I think, maybe, you are good at solving your own problems while you talk them out and are not so much looking for answers from other's than wanted to be heard, "seen" and supported with either some sympathy or some empathy or both.
Does this resonate? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Forest Cat]

we were told that our feelings do not matter and all we needed to do is to toughen up.

Maybe you should try to look at it from a different angle. You seem very occupied with the world being considerate to your feelings. I was told to toughen up when I was a kid. Pretty much everyone was told that. But it wasn't because our feelings didn't matter or that those who said it was just mean, it was because we had to learn to deal with things and not expect the world to be kind to us. So toughening up makes life easier to handle.

That's the reason the adults told me to toughen up. They didn't say that because they didn't think my feelings mattered. They just wanted me to be capable of handling things later in life. They knew the world would not be considerate to my feelings. So they actually did me a favour.

 

[Forest Cat]

"I don't care about how I feel, I have a duty to myself and my family." How much discomfort can I endure so that I can provide for others. Not everyone can have a "cushy" job. Some people have to do their work in the absolute worst of environments fraught with danger, so that we all can live a "civilized" existence, and the vast majority of those people are men who are physically and mentally capable to just do it despite how they feel.

That's a good point. How we feel is very often not the most important thing. It's getting things done that matters.

 

[Rodafina]

That's a good point. How we feel it's often not the most important thing. It's getting things done that matters.

During times in my life when I was too focused on my feelings, not much was getting done. During times of my life when I was focused on getting things done, my feelings actually started to improve anyway. Action is the key to living for me. I do not do well dwelling on my own thoughts too much.

 

[Cryptid]

I will 'ghost' anyone who expresses bigotry, and 'boycott' any business or organization that does so too. There are quite a few racists, sexists, and homophobes who have asked why I suddenly cut off all contact with them or ignored them when we were in the same room. Of course, they get no answer from me, but from mutual contacts.

The fact that more than one person not otherwise involved points out their bigotry seems to have an effect on their behavior. If it was just me, they would laugh it off and try to make me out to be the offending party.

 

[BobbiSueEllen]

I just apply this to the matter: "Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction". Works pretty well.

 

[Suzanne]

I don’t know how you managed to feel so calm when it feels very natural to feel overwhelmed by something insensitive. Not saying you shouldn’t though.

I feel this is because you were so burned out with these comments that you started feeling numb. Don’t know if this is the case but it could be possible. This would definitely be the same thing for me where I would just end up feeling so shocked to the point where I can’t feel anything for a while.

Two factors, could be the answer. One, that recently I decided I MUST stop expecting things from others, because I ALWAYS feel disappointed. Two. well, I am not particularly favourable when I am doing my best to be liked, so stop trying and be myself.

Should add a third. I know this person very well and she OFTEN hits below the belt with her words.

Or, because we had just a delish kebab and I was feeling more relaxed.

Doesn't mean that the next time, I will feel the same way, though.

 

[Suzanne]

@Suzanne

Have you experienced an internal change lately?

More likely "letting something go" (harder to identify as it happens) than psychological insight, but the details don't matter.

Not as such. Just myself trying to remind myself to not expect things from others.

 

[2Fragile2TakeCriticism]

Two factors, could be the answer. One, that recently I decided I MUST stop expecting things from others, because I ALWAYS feel disappointed. Two. well, I am not particularly favourable when I am doing my best to be liked, so stop trying and be myself.

Should add a third. I know this person very well and she OFTEN hits below the belt with her words.

Or, because we had just a delish kebab and I was feeling more relaxed.

Doesn't mean that the next time, I will feel the same way, though.

I do try to be myself and stop expecting things from other people. However, even when I do so, it hits me hard in the gut.

I have made attempts to stop expecting others to understand but still it hurts horribly because losing expectations just allows others to walk all over you (and other people) since they know you’ve already given up.

Trust me. I ended up surrendering pointless arguments only for idiots to gloat about how I lost the argument and will keep on treating me like dirt until they get enough narcissistic supply to move on to the next target.

 

[vergil96]

So toughening up makes life easier to handle.

The problem with this statement is, in my opinion, you're told to "just toughen up" and it seems to "just work" for others, but it doesn't work for everyone, you're not told how to toughen up or the instructions don't work. I cannot "just dissociate" from many things, for example. I have found my own ways to deal with unpleasant and overwhelming things, but my point being: "just grow thicker skin" doesn't answer the question how to do that.

 

[Rodafina]

The problem with this statement is, in my opinion, you're told to "just toughen up" and it seems to "just work" for others, but it doesn't work for everyone, you're not told how to toughen up or the instructions don't work. I cannot "just dissociate" from many things, for example. I have found my own ways to deal with unpleasant and overwhelming things, but my point being: "just grow thicker skin" doesn't answer the question how to do that.

I hear you @vergil96 and I agree. I have been told to “have thicker skin” my whole life and it didn’t make sense to me until last year.

As Lady S pointed out in post number 18, growing thicker skin isn’t the same as something like “just deal with it.” There are specific things that we can learn that can help with this notion of having “thicker skin,” that still honors who we are, the feelings we have, and the ways in which we may be more sensitive than others are.

Unfortunately, there will rarely be anyone to tell you exactly what to do and it would be different for each of us. But what “growing thicker skin” has meant for me is to:

- Form and maintain healthy boundaries

- Have a means for venting about difficult feelings and speaking to others who can understand.

- Work on reducing my habit of perseveration and increase my ability to refocus my attention.

- Invest in my own self confidence and self-esteem so much that I am able to not be so hurt and wounded by what other people say and think

- Gaining more and more experience in the world to keep my own struggles in perspective and understand the huge variety of suffering there is out there

- Exercise

- Noticing patterns in emotional shut down so that I can try to live in a way where I am not getting to the point of shutting down or even worse, having meltdowns. For this one, when I am already feeling raw and overstimulated by the world, I know it’s time to withdraw within myself and protect as much as possible.

 

[LadyS]

I hear you @vergil96 and I agree. I have been told to “have thicker skin” my whole life and it didn’t make sense to me until last year.

As Lady S pointed out in post number 18, growing thicker skin isn’t the same as something like “just deal with it.” There are specific things that we can learn that can help with this notion of having “thicker skin,” that still honors who we are, the feelings we have, and the ways in which we may be more sensitive than others are.

Unfortunately, there will rarely be anyone to tell you exactly what to do and it would be different for each of us. But what “growing thicker skin” has meant for me is to:

- Form and maintain healthy boundaries

- Have a means for venting about difficult feelings and speaking to others who can understand.

- Work on reducing my habit of perseveration and increase my ability to refocus my attention.

- Invest in my own self confidence and self-esteem so much that I am able to not be so hurt and wounded by what other people say and think

- Gaining more and more experience in the world to keep my own struggles in perspective and understand the huge variety of suffering there is out there

- Exercise

- Noticing patterns in emotional shut down so that I can try to live in a way where I am not getting to the point of shutting down or even worse, having meltdowns. For this one, when I am already feeling raw and overstimulated by the world, I know it’s time to withdraw within myself and protect as much as possible.

Thank you for putting into words far better than mine!

Those are examples that relate to my experience as well. I used to be extremely sensitive to other people's "rationale" to the point of being physically ill, just like OP. Sometimes it still does make me ill but so much less now that I've implemented some of your points.

But I also know I have limitations on what I can do. For instance, I've tried to build my self confidence and assurance but it just doesn't come naturally to me especially in real time. So much self-doubt. But to compensate for this, I've worked on setting boundaries with certain people. Do I like this? Definitely not.. but I realize I need to function and that's more important than winning a disagreement.

Another is looking at the big picture. I've always done this but now apply it to social experiences - and what's great is realizing that some things are so much more important than these tiny negative social interactions. If you think about how massive our universe is and how insignificant we are, you quickly realize it's all ridiculous in the grand scheme of things.

Another is keeping myself busy like you mentioned before. Helping others instead of being so focused on myself. And this inadvertently builds self confidence in yourself, it's true. You realize you're not an useless island, you can make a difference outside of yourself.