Hello (M39, Finland)

[Shevek]

I really like personal tax returns being public information in Finland.

 

[Arrokoth]

I really like personal tax returns being public information in Finland.

This is true and it seems not very common in other countries. Each November, the tax office even gives the media a list of people who made more than 100 k€ during the previous year. One can demand an exclusion from being in the list but even in that case the information can be obtained for each individual from the tax office (not online).

 

[Forest Cat]

This is true and it seems not very common in other countries. Each November, the tax office even gives the media a list of people who made more than 100 k€ during the previous year. One can demand an exclusion from being in the list but even in that case the information can be obtained for each individual from the tax office (not online).

We have the same system here and we have had some problems with criminals using it. If you want to rob someone, you can just look up their taxes and income. It takes one minute, everything is online. If I want to know how much money my neighbor made last year I can look it up right now. And the newspapers publish "top 100 richest people in your county" lists. It makes everything transparent but it's not very smart when considering theft and kidnapping and such things.

 

[Shevek]

We have the same system here and we have had some problems with criminals using it. If you want to rob someone, you can just look up their taxes and income. It takes one minute, everything is online. If I want to know how much money my neighbor made last year I can look it up right now. And the newspapers publish "top 100 richest people in your county" lists. It makes everything transparent but it's not very smart when considering theft and kidnapping and such things.

Those things come with the other not smart condition of having very rich people and very people who have no legal, reliable way to get ahead. All money spent to separate rich people from poor people is wasted from the public good.

 

[Forest Cat]

Those things come with the other not smart condition of having very rich people and very people who have no legal, reliable way to get ahead. All money spent to separate rich people from poor people is wasted from the public good.

My point was just that when you make peoples personal finances public, it's a very useful tool for criminals. We have some problems with organized crime groups from other European countries travelling here to steal.

I don't think anyone here is spending money on separating anyone, people have the same opportunities and get the same help if they need help.

 

[Arrokoth]

I'd say that here in the Nordic countries we have at least similar opportunities regardless of wealth. I am from an uneducated family but ended up pursuing a PhD and I didn't have to pay anything for my education apart from a few books and student union fees. Now I am happy to pay back high taxes. But in most countries it's not like that.

The good thing about sharing the income information is that such openness will keep people aware of the income differences across different professions. Too high income differences create crime and unhappiness and because money tends to go where money is, these differences accumulate over time unless the people want otherwise. But I agree that online is not the best place to have income information, it should be available but not too easily. Also I am not sure if it has to go down to the individual level, would it be enough that it is reported what are the income differences between various jobs, geographical areas etc.?

 

[Forest Cat]

But I agree that online is not the best place to have income information, it should be available but not too easily. Also I am not sure if it has to go down to the individual level, would it be enough that it is reported what are the income differences between various jobs, geographical areas etc.?

Before the internet, all the tax and income info was published in a book here every year. It was just a long list in book form, names and numbers. And it was the most popular book, best seller, people gave it to each other for Christmas and everyone looked up how much the neighbor made. I remember those books from when I was a kid. That was done for decades. The Nordic countries tend to be transparent but sometimes we might overdo it a little.

 

[Mary Terry]

Before the internet, all the tax and income info was published in a book here every year. It was just a long list in book form, names and numbers. And it was the most popular book, best seller, people gave it to each other for Christmas and everyone looked up how much the neighbor made. I remember those books from when I was a kid. That was done for decades. The Nordic countries tend to be transparent but sometimes we might overdo it a little.

I'm really surprised by this total lack of privacy! Wow. It's no one's business what anyone else earns! Or maybe that's just my Americanism.

 

[tazz]

Is it possible from the Finnish public records to know how someone earned their money? Like which companies they work for, what assets they own, etc.

 

[tazz]

Oh, and, is this the longest introduction thread ever?

 

[Shevek]

I'm really surprised by this total lack of privacy! Wow. It's no one's business what anyone else earns! Or maybe that's just my Americanism.

Bosses hate it when even their own employees share their salary figures . There is usually one who is getting underpaid without realizing it. It also helps to know if another company pays better. Apart from earnings, though, this just makes it harder to get away with cheating. If you think you see someone abusing their trust, and then they show up with sudden wealth, that's worth knowing. It was his income tax returns that finally brought down Al Capone.

 

[Aspychata]

Finland is such a interesting country. I know the president had been president forever, has that changed? My friends told me there were five politcal parties compared to our two politcal parties. The schools had no lockers, the kids just hung up their backpacks on hooks. And liquor was sold at the state owned store when l was there. The town l lived in, the street signs were in Swedish and Finnish. My Finnish family never had peanut butter before because at that time it wasn't sold in the stores. So l made it for them. And family sauna is done in the nude, because Finland is very progressive, or was at that time.

Fascinating place. Has transgender issues been handled with acceptance? Hope you get a chance to share some pictures of your favorite places

 

[Forest Cat]

I'm really surprised by this total lack of privacy! Wow. It's no one's business what anyone else earns! Or maybe that's just my Americanism.

Yeah you pay for transparency with privacy. I'm not super happy about my income, savings/fortune and tax records being public info. I think people have the right to some privacy. But I'm so used to it being this way so it's just the way it is. The upside is that I can look up any politician I want to and see how much that person is earning and paying in tax. And then I can say things like "that useless overpaid bastard!".

 

[Mary Terry]

Yeah you pay for transparency with privacy. I'm not super happy about my income, savings/fortune and tax records being public info. I think people have the right to some privacy. But I'm so used to it being this way so it's just the way it is. The upside is that I can look up any politician I want to and see how much that person is earning and paying in tax. And then I can say things like "that useless overpaid bastard!".

I think the accuracy of reported income would be susceptible to fraud. The rich and unscrupulous easily hide income and assets in foreign countries. The home country would have a difficult, if not impossible, task to obtain pertinent information from a foreign country. That's why the infamous Panama Papers were so intriguing.

In the US, it is easy to investigate property ownership because all land deeds are filed in the public records to protect the landowner and third parties from fraudulent sales of the land. The recorded deeds are "notice to the world" of who owns a particular property. All prudent buyers (and mortgage holders) conduct a title search of the property ownership history and any liens (debts secured by a pledge of the property to a creditor such as a bank) on said property. You do have to know the location of the property that you're interested in because the land records are filed in the county where the property is located. It is not easy in the US for a private person to investigate another's cash assets unless a court issued subpoena for the information is first obtained.

 

[Forest Cat]

I think the accuracy of reported income would be susceptible to fraud. The rich and unscrupulous easily hide income and assets in foreign countries. The home country would have a difficult, if not impossible, task to obtain pertinent information from a foreign country. That's why the infamous Panama Papers were so intriguing.

In the US, it is easy to investigate property ownership because all land deeds are filed in the public records to protect the landowner and third parties from fraudulent sales of the land. The recorded deeds are "notice to the world" of who owns a particular property. All prudent buyers (and mortgage holders) conduct a title search of the property ownership history and any liens (debts secured by a pledge of the property to a creditor such as a bank) on said property. You do have to know the location of the property that you're interested in because the land records are filed in the county where the property is located. It is not easy in the US for a private person to investigate another's cash assets unless a court issued subpoena for the information is first obtained.

You should meet the Norwegian version of the IRS. They are very eager and hard working. But it's possible to sneak around and hide money of course, everything is just a little more transparent here compared to the US. It's a nanny state and nanny knows everything about her little children.

 

[Mary Terry]

You should meet the Norwegian version of the IRS. They are very eager and hard working. I don't even have to report income, I just get the tax papers once a year with the numbers already filled in. They just send it to me so I can check that it's right, sign it and return it. But it's possible to sneak around and hide money of course, everything is just a little more transparent here compared to the US.

Maybe Norwegians are just more honest, compliant with the existing laws and respectful of the government than typical Americans? That would not surprise me. But even if the IRS here obtains accurate tax info, it cannot release that information to the public or another individual without a court order.

It's interesting to me to learn about the Scandinavian countries and their governments. I know I have Scandinavian ancestry and I still hope to visit there some day.

 

[Forest Cat]

Maybe Norwegians are just more honest, compliant with the existing laws and respectful of the government than typical Americans? That would not surprise me. But even if the IRS here obtains accurate tax info, it cannot release that information to the public or another individual without a court order.

It's interesting to me to learn about the Scandinavian countries and their governments. I know I have Scandinavian ancestry and I still hope to visit there some day.

In the US you need a court order and here it's published in the newspapers and online. That sure is a big difference.

 

[Arrokoth]

Is it possible from the Finnish public records to know how someone earned their money? Like which companies they work for, what assets they own, etc.

I was reading about this the other day when I checked about the facts and no, the public records have no info on how someone earned their income, so that remains private. No one will know if someone got a bit of extra income via Airbnb or Onlyfans. Unless you are the owner of a big company which gets sold and you earn a lot, that will be public because the ownership of private companies is public information.

 

[Arrokoth]

Oh, and, is this the longest introduction thread ever?

I have to say I am really happy to have such a diverse discussion here and it makes me feel very welcome

 

[Arrokoth]

Finland is such a interesting country. I know the president had been president forever, has that changed? My friends told me there were five politcal parties compared to our two politcal parties. The schools had no lockers, the kids just hung up their backpacks on hooks. And liquor was sold at the state owned store when l was there. The town l lived in, the street signs were in Swedish and Finnish. My Finnish family never had peanut butter before because at that time it wasn't sold in the stores. So l made it for them. And family sauna is done in the nude, because Finland is very progressive, or was at that time.

Fascinating place. Has transgender issues been handled with acceptance? Hope you get a chance to share some pictures of your favorite places

These are spot on observations of what is different around here! We used to have one president who had unlimited terms but after that the constitution was changed to allow maximum two six-year terms. We just had a parliamentary election and the 200 MPs are divided between 10 political parties! The new government has not yet been formed but they will need at least three parties to form a majority coalition. We've had "rainbow governments" with as many as six parties.

I think the schools still don't have lockers, the kids keep their belongings in those hooks or inside (unlocked) classrooms. Any alcohol stronger than 5.5% vol is still sold only in a state-run monopoly called Alko. Many coastal towns are bilingual and the law requires all the street signs to be in both languages. I have tasted peanut butter a couple of times in my life, I think I was over 25 years old when I tried the first time Sauna is still done in the nude, also in public swimming halls, but nowadays mixed saunas are getting less common (or people wear a swimsuit) and kids might go to sauna with their parents only until they reach puberty, but this totally depends on the family. I don't know if it's about being progressive or just practical. Also in the past, clothes would tell a lot about your social status so the sauna was a place where the peasant and the landlord were equal.

Finland has been lagging behind in transgender rights and only recently they changed the law which required proof of infertility from anyone changing their gender (now one just needs to fill out a form). I think the majority of people are supporting transgender rights, though.

My favourite city in Finland is Turku. My favourite place is any place during a nice summer evening Here's a picture of a rainbow at 11 pm at our summer cottage.