Help NTs understand themselves and us

[Autistamatic]

Just read this thread. Well, I am really confused. I am an NT and I mean what I say and am rather literal. So if I ask someone "How are you?" I am NOT doing it for social reasons, I am doing it because I care about the person and want to know what is happening with them. If I say I feel sad, I am not trying to get you to discover a hidden agenda, Nope I feel sad. I find myself communicating less and less with people in general. I don't have the mental energy to figure things out. If I don't trust you I don't confide in you, simple as that.
So where does this leave me here? Am I just totally lacking self insight? Am I communicating in ememes without realizing that my communication is confusing you and that we are talking at cross purposes? I truly don't know so hope someone will help me out here.

I understand your confusion, but believe me that no-one is directing anything at you personally. You have demonstrated through your interactions on this forum that you are one of the exceptions that proves the rule.
My wife is NT and is amazing with not only myself but with other autistics. Unfortunately people like her and yourself are not very common, so it's inevitable that autistics should feel some disconnect with NT people in general. I doubt anyone who has participated in this discussion would for one moment suggest that the issues raised herein apply to ALL people not on the spectrum, but sadly they do appear to apply to a majority.
Believe me when I say that I, and all the people contributing to this thread are very grateful that people such as yourself exist. You prove that there is hope

 

[LucyPurrs]

Thanks @Autistamatic for your kind words. Wasn't taking what's been said personally directed at me, no not at all, just feeling confused about whether my messages are a problem for forum members. I care about the people here, so I am concerned that my communication be straightforward and clear. I don't really fit in all that well with NTs in general, at least not the types described most often here. But then I'm not autistic either so feel a bit in no man's land. I certainly don't blame or begrudge anyone here for feeling the way they do as I am appalled at how so many have been treated by the world in general. So please let me know if I am miscommunicating!

 

[Jojo_LB]

At least you care about learning how we communicate, or what we have difficulties with. Not many are so understanding.

I am reminded of something that happened about 16 years ago. I was at work and a co-worker, who became sort of a friend, had returned from a one-week vacation. While she was away, she had gotten engaged. There were five other women in the office. They all ooh-ed and aah-ed over her ring, asked her about how he proposed, how the vacation was, asked to see pictures. I just kind of stared! lol A few minutes later, I could feel some sort of coldness coming from her. Then out of nowhere, she turned to me and blurted out rudely, in front of the others, "Hi to you too! Don't you care to ask me how I am? It's like you never care!" Our friendship ended.

It stung, and I was humiliated. It's not that I didn't care at all. It's that I am normally not very interested in stuff like that. So I'm not going to partake or seek it out. I would've said congratulations to her anyway on my own time, after I'd had the chance to pull her aside privately to do so.

The kind of back and forth conversation and sharing of feelings and all of that involved in socializing require a bit of vulnerability and intimacy, which are very scary things to me Seriously. With most people, I don't want to go beyond the outermost surface, and I hold them at bay so they don't go beneath the surface with me. And I despise small talk, so in others' presence, I am aloof, withdrawn, b****y. Some even assumed me to be quite anti-social, a misanthrope!

I make no unfair assumptions of anyone. But I do know that I have such a hard time communicating with NT's for many reasons, including what I just posted above. And all my life, so many people made assumptions about me. Little do they know I try all the time. There are times I just can't try anymore though. Too tiring!

 

[LucyPurrs]

It's very understandable that that experience was devastating for you- would have been for me too and your friend sounds pretty rude in my opinion! I might have felt hurt or disappointed but I would have never done what she did. Thanks for your support- I've been so blessed by all the support I get from folks here. I feel more at home here than anywhere.

 

[John M]

"so feel a bit in no man's land"

If you feel like you're in a kind of no man's land then I suspect you can empathize with how many people on the spectrum feel. It's always like that. I feel that way on the forums too. Sometime I may take a few months off from the forums because I'm afraid someone may misinterpret something I say and the emotional intensity associated with saying something that inadvertently makes someone feel bad or generally has a negative affect is more than I can deal with.

 

[LucyPurrs]

Awww @John M , I am sure we all say things inadvertently which might have unintended effects on others. No one's perfect so hope you will stop beating yourself up and worrying about this so much. One thing about communication is that things can always be corrected and amended thank goodness. So no need to stay away for long periods of time. Members here are very forgiving and understanding I've found.

 

[sidd851]

Just read this thread. Well, I am really confused. I am an NT and I mean what I say and am rather literal. So if I ask someone "How are you?" I am NOT doing it for social reasons, I am doing it because I care about the person and want to know what is happening with them. If I say I feel sad, I am not trying to get you to discover a hidden agenda, Nope I feel sad. I find myself communicating less and less with people in general. I don't have the mental energy to figure things out. If I don't trust you I don't confide in you, simple as that.
So where does this leave me here? Am I just totally lacking self insight? Am I communicating in ememes without realizing that my communication is confusing you and that we are talking at cross purposes? I truly don't know so hope someone will help me out here.

Hi LucyPurrs!
I've been thinking about you this last day or two, and Poof! Here you are!

I've also been thinking about the very thing that you are asking here.
I will be candid---Shamefully, as an ND operating in a society that is perfectly counter-adapted to my strengths and abilities, wherein the majority are neurotypical, and the majority of those NT's speak, act, and treat me as though I am faulty, less than, inferior, I can become demoralized and disgruntled, and it is easy to absolutize my experience by using words like "every", "all", and a bunch ending in "...st", to describe them, because it feels like every and all and no quarter.
I have been aware, with growing acuity, that there are those NT's who are sincere, when they ask "How are you?" and similar polite introductory queries. Since Ememication©() can operate independent of spoken or signed language, it begins at eye contact, or awareness of another, receptive, ememication©)) capable human. Verbal conversation may, or may not, even occur.
There are that minority, yes , that minority of NT's whose initial social queries aren't just niceties, they're heartfelt concern and compassion for another's experiences. They are genuinely concerned for another's welfare.

I am wondering, first, if the rate, complexity, depth and ability of these sincere NT's ememication is comparable to the insincere social querying NT? Do the two communication types occur in inverse proportion?
I.E.- Is LucyPurrs as fluent in ememication as "hayadoin' Fred"? Moreso?
Is there a spectrum of ememication ability?
Or is it "Ya have it or ya don't"?
---
LucyPurrs.
You and I've discussed similar topics, and I am grateful for you, as an example, as a human being, and as a friend. I am far beyond a shadow of a doubt of your sincerity, and, as a result of my exposure to you, well,
I had to set another place at the table. That's, well, that's something. You kinda represented an entirely different, new animal to me, a paradox, an NT that exemplifies everything you claim to hold dear, unquestionably a family member, and a wonderful human being. Please forgive us. Please forgive me.

We'll figure this out. We'll figure it out together, LucyPurrs.
---
I have a niggling feeling that I'm onto some of the right questions.

You couldn't have a better ally(co-conspirator, really), than @Autistamatic to spearhead the dictionary submission, but he'll surprise you, too(watch him, folks, 'cause he's a fairly dangerous man).

I have a niggling feeling that, well, @Progster and @Fridgemagnetman "You're gonna need a bigger boat."
I have a feeling that your discovery and development of concept is going to explain a whole helluva lot more than you originally intended for. I see the concept of "ememe" as providing rich fields of study that could possibly hold clues to the history, prevalence, and continuing necessity for autism in a healthy society.
For starters.

Mother Nature doesn't do anything for no reason.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Hi LucyPurrs!
I've been thinking about you this last day or two, and Poof! Here you are!

I've also been thinking about the very thing that you are asking here.
I will be candid---Shamefully, as an ND operating in a society that is perfectly counter-adapted to my strengths and abilities, wherein the majority are neurotypical, and the majority of those NT's speak, act, and treat me as though I am faulty, less than, inferior, I can become demoralized and disgruntled, and it is easy to absolutize my experience by using words like "every", "all", and a bunch ending in "...st", to describe them, because it feels like every and all and no quarter.
I have been aware, with growing acuity, that there are those NT's who are sincere, when they ask "How are you?" and similar polite introductory queries. Since Ememication©() can operate independent of spoken or signed language, it begins at eye contact, or awareness of another, receptive, ememication©)) capable human. Verbal conversation may, or may not, even occur.
There are that minority, yes , that minority of NT's whose initial social queries aren't just niceties, they're heartfelt concern and compassion for another's experiences. They are genuinely concerned for another's welfare.

I am wondering, first, if the rate, complexity, depth and ability of these sincere NT's ememication is comparable to the insincere social querying NT? Do the two communication types occur in inverse proportion?
I.E.- Is LucyPurrs as fluent in ememication as "hayadoin' Fred"? Moreso?
Is there a spectrum of ememication ability?
Or is it "Ya have it or ya don't"?
---
LucyPurrs.
You and I've discussed similar topics, and I am grateful for you, as an example, as a human being, and as a friend. I am far beyond a shadow of a doubt of your sincerity, and, as a result of my exposure to you, well,
I had to set another place at the table. That's, well, that's something. You kinda represented an entirely different, new animal to me, a paradox, an NT that exemplifies everything you claim to hold dear, unquestionably a family member, and a wonderful human being. Please forgive us. Please forgive me.

We'll figure this out. We'll figure it out together, LucyPurrs.
---
I have a niggling feeling that I'm onto some of the right questions.

You couldn't have a better ally(co-conspirator, really), than @Autistamatic to spearhead the dictionary submission, but he'll surprise you, too(watch him, folks, 'cause he's a fairly dangerous man).

I have a niggling feeling that, well, @Progster and @Fridgemagnetman "You're gonna need a bigger boat."
I have a feeling that your discovery and development of concept is going to explain a whole helluva lot more than you originally intended for. I see the concept of "ememe" as providing rich fields of study that could possibly hold clues to the history, prevalence, and continuing necessity for autism in a healthy society.
For starters.

Mother Nature doesn't do anything for no reason.

What we have here is an NT example of taking things literally

Progsters 'how are you' is for example purposes only. To represent the ememe idea.

The same troubles are encountered whenever you move any general example,with it's rough edges, to a specific example - it may not seem to apply, or not work.

Yet the general example can be considered a waymark for the confused. A starting point when there is confusion. A way to negotiate misunderstanding,where it exists.

When you get to individual relationships you move far beyond general examples.

As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

4) a unit of measure used to quantify
emotional content.

A unit of emotional information/communication.

Fits with the meme like meaning.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

hey all ooh-ed and aah-ed over her ring, asked her about how he proposed, how the vacation was, asked to see pictures. I just kind of stared! lol A few minutes later, I could feel some sort of coldness coming from her. Then out of nowhere, she turned to me and blurted out rudely, in front of the others, "Hi to you too! Don't you care to ask me how I am? It's like you never care!" Our friendship ended.

That's kind of what the word 'ememe' is about.
A way for a wider circle of people to understand the difference in communication - in one level!

It can also be why our faces are usually not expressive. We're not picking up social cues either - but this is more about verbal.

 

[Streetwise]

Awww @John M , I am sure we all say things inadvertently which might have unintended effects on others. No one's perfect so hope you will stop beating yourself up and worrying about this so much. One thing about communication is that things can always be corrected and amended thank goodness. So no need to stay away for long periods of time. Members here are very forgiving and understanding I've found.

One thing you could teach people that aren't autistic I think a certain amount of autistic people breathe and beat their self up so it's going to be a long time long long time before we learn not to do it

 

[Progster]

Just read this thread. Well, I am really confused. I am an NT and I mean what I say and am rather literal. So if I ask someone "How are you?" I am NOT doing it for social reasons, I am doing it because I care about the person and want to know what is happening with them. If I say I feel sad, I am not trying to get you to discover a hidden agenda, Nope I feel sad. I find myself communicating less and less with people in general. I don't have the mental energy to figure things out. If I don't trust you I don't confide in you, simple as that.
So where does this leave me here? Am I just totally lacking self insight? Am I communicating in ememes without realizing that my communication is confusing you and that we are talking at cross purposes? I truly don't know so hope someone will help me out here.

I don't mean to suggest that all people use ememes all of the time, and that "how are you" always has a hidden social meaning - I guess I need to edit or refine my ememes post to reflect this, and I have no doubt of your sincerity in this matter. But a lot of people do use it in the way that I describe - it is often used as a greeting rather than a question about the health of a person, a set script with a set response "I'm fine" which is also another ememe I guess, though I'm aware that the person may give a different response too. NTs clearly don't talk in ememes literally all the time. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. We may be aware of the ememe or social meaning as well as the literal meaning, but for us, the difficulty is often in knowing when the social meaning is implied and when the literal meaning is implied. So, when someone asks "how are you?", do they want to know how I am, or is it a greeting? As I mentioned, we tend to default to the literal meaning, because that is how our brains work. It is also a cultural-linguistic thing - where I live, for example, the equivilant of "how are you" is "ti kaneis" which literally means "what are you doing?". It can also be used as a greeting, as in our cultures. I find it hard to know which is meant and it can cause confusion. i often have to ask which one they mean. Most NTs are a lot more adept at knowing the actual meaning, as @sidd851 suggests, it can be a matter of accompanying body language that signals to the other person the intent of the question, something that people on the spectrum might not pick up on, again, due to differences in processing information.

The ememe theory is a work in progress and NT input is extremely helpful, and necessary to provide balance to the theory, thank you for your comments.

 

[LucyPurrs]

Hi LucyPurrs!
I've been thinking about you this last day or two, and Poof! Here you are!

I've also been thinking about the very thing that you are asking here.
I will be candid---Shamefully, as an ND operating in a society that is perfectly counter-adapted to my strengths and abilities, wherein the majority are neurotypical, and the majority of those NT's speak, act, and treat me as though I am faulty, less than, inferior, I can become demoralized and disgruntled, and it is easy to absolutize my experience by using words like "every", "all", and a bunch ending in "...st", to describe them, because it feels like every and all and no quarter.
I have been aware, with growing acuity, that there are those NT's who are sincere, when they ask "How are you?" and similar polite introductory queries. Since Ememication©() can operate independent of spoken or signed language, it begins at eye contact, or awareness of another, receptive, ememication©)) capable human. Verbal conversation may, or may not, even occur.
There are that minority, yes , that minority of NT's whose initial social queries aren't just niceties, they're heartfelt concern and compassion for another's experiences. They are genuinely concerned for another's welfare.

I am wondering, first, if the rate, complexity, depth and ability of these sincere NT's ememication is comparable to the insincere social querying NT? Do the two communication types occur in inverse proportion?
I.E.- Is LucyPurrs as fluent in ememication as "hayadoin' Fred"? Moreso?
Is there a spectrum of ememication ability?
Or is it "Ya have it or ya don't"?
---
LucyPurrs.
You and I've discussed similar topics, and I am grateful for you, as an example, as a human being, and as a friend. I am far beyond a shadow of a doubt of your sincerity, and, as a result of my exposure to you, well,
I had to set another place at the table. That's, well, that's something. You kinda represented an entirely different, new animal to me, a paradox, an NT that exemplifies everything you claim to hold dear, unquestionably a family member, and a wonderful human being. Please forgive us. Please forgive me.

We'll figure this out. We'll figure it out together, LucyPurrs.
---
I have a niggling feeling that I'm onto some of the right questions.

You couldn't have a better ally(co-conspirator, really), than @Autistamatic to spearhead the dictionary submission, but he'll surprise you, too(watch him, folks, 'cause he's a fairly dangerous man).

I have a niggling feeling that, well, @Progster and @Fridgemagnetman "You're gonna need a bigger boat."
I have a feeling that your discovery and development of concept is going to explain a whole helluva lot more than you originally intended for. I see the concept of "ememe" as providing rich fields of study that could possibly hold clues to the history, prevalence, and continuing necessity for autism in a healthy society.
For starters.

Mother Nature doesn't do anything for no reason.

Wow Sidd. I'm blown away. But there's nothing to forgive at all. You are way to kind. I am glad you feel as you do though- I have to be honest about that! But if anyone here has felt caring from me it's because you deserve that caring!!! And Sidd, I am honored you consider me a friend and I consider you a friend as well.

 

[LucyPurrs]

@ Progster, I didn't mean to be critical at all of what you said, just felt confused. You see I am very literal, LOL! Your clarification was helpful and appreciated. I agree that lots of people use How are you and respond fine in a knee jerk manner for social purposes. I need to figure out a better way of asking that question so people will understand that I am truly asking and wanting to know. I'd appreciate any input on that from forum members

 

[LucyPurrs]

One thing you could teach people that aren't autistic I think a certain amount of autistic people breathe and beat their self up so it's going to be a long time long long time before we learn not to do it

Oh Street, I wish I knew how to teach autistic people how to stop beating themselves up! I think caring about someone, respecting and valuing them as a person can help towards this end. I can do this on an individual level and scale but how to do it en mass?

 

[Progster]

I need to figure out a better way of asking that question so people will understand that I am truly asking and wanting to know.

My suggestion would be "are you well?" when you want to ask after someone's health, and "Hi, nice to see you!" for a friendly greeting. Then there is no confusion which is meant

 

[LucyPurrs]

My suggestion would be "are you well?" when you want to ask after someone's health, and "Hi, nice to see you!" for a friendly greeting. Then there is no confusion which is meant

These are good suggestions! I like the separation you made between asking after someone's well being vs expressing a greeting. I'm going to practice this, thanks Progster!

 

[Jenisautistic]

That not all people are the same even with classic more moderate or severe autism.

That lower functioning does not necessarily mean that someone higher functioning is better than them . Even though that they are better at certain things .

You should not be scared to admit that you need more support than others on the spectrum if you do need at that support.

The majority of people with autism are not lazy and they’re trying their best to function in this NT society The same thing with intellectual disabilities .

And that no matter how much support someone needs if they need support and some people don’t even need support they are still on the spectrum .

People with intellectual disabilities are not stupid. They were just born with the limited cognitive skills .And they need love .

Everyone NT on the spectrum needs love but especially those that are not NT in a way because they need more understanding .

That not everyone wants a cure . Although some people do .

That a lot of the times ignorance is the problem not autism .

If I can think of anymore I’ll write them down later

 

[Streetwise]

Oh Street, I wish I knew how to teach autistic people how to stop beating themselves up! I think caring about someone, respecting and valuing them as a person can help towards this end. I can do this on an individual level and scale but how to do it en mass?

facebook like the indescribable #Me too movement

 

[LucyPurrs]

facebook like the indescribable #Me too movement

Maybe, but I have a very small footprint on Facebook precisely because I'm kind of asocial. I have posted occasional things on autism but they don't get to many people. Have been a Patreon for Paul at Asperger's from the Inside as he is trying to change public perception as well as help with emotional intelligence courses for autistics.

 

[Streetwise]

Maybe, but I have a very small footprint on Facebook precisely because I'm kind of asocial. I have posted occasional things on autism but they don't get to many people. Have been a Patreon for Paul at Asperger's from the Inside as he is trying to change public perception as well as help with emotional intelligence courses for autistics.

couldn't be any smaller than mine I have never accepted a friend request I purely post environmental and religious posts usually just re-sharing them Facebook have at times given me a very mild warning because I never actually contact friends I think they(facebook) think I'm a terrorist and wait for it I beat myself up a certain amount on Facebook on the one group I am part of