I'm NT and feel as you do. I'm quite literal and very logical, most of the time - it is just my personality and maybe because I practiced law for 35 years, a very literal and logical field. When I greet someone, I usually say something like "how nice to see you, hope all is going well with you". I rarely ask how they are feeling. If all is not going well for them and they want to talk about it, then they can say so.
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Help NTs understand themselves and us
- Thread starter Thinx
- Start date
I'm NT and feel as you do. I'm quite literal and very logical, most of the time - it is just my personality and maybe because I practiced law for 35 years, a very literal and logical field. When I greet someone, I usually say something like "how nice to see you, hope all is going well with you". I rarely ask how they are feeling. If all is not going well for them and they want to talk about it, then they can say so.
When it comes to the greeting thing - I have always favoured the traditional.
"Hello"
"Hi"
"Good morning/afternoon/evening"
Also living in the south of the UK I like to say:
"Owdo" (how do)
Because nobody down here has clue what it means but they understand it's a greeting
Joking aside - a plain hello or goodbye just makes life simpler
"Hello"
"Hi"
"Good morning/afternoon/evening"
Also living in the south of the UK I like to say:
"Owdo" (how do)
Because nobody down here has clue what it means but they understand it's a greeting
Joking aside - a plain hello or goodbye just makes life simpler
By everybody doing it, LucyPurrs, by everybody doing it.
We're not obligated to finish the work, but we are also not at liberty to lay it aside.
GreenerGal
Active Member
As an NT in love with an amazing AT man, I'm going to write this on a post-it and stick it to my bathroom mirror. Every argument we've ever had is because of communication error.
Ememes
Hi LucyPurrs!
I've been thinking about you this last day or two, and Poof! Here you are!
I've also been thinking about the very thing that you are asking here.
I will be candid---Shamefully, as an ND operating in a society that is perfectly counter-adapted to my strengths and abilities, wherein the majority are neurotypical, and the majority of those NT's speak, act, and treat me as though I am faulty, less than, inferior, I can become demoralized and disgruntled, and it is easy to absolutize my experience by using words like "every", "all", and a bunch ending in "...st", to describe them, because it feels like every and all and no quarter.
I have been aware, with growing acuity, that there are those NT's who are sincere, when they ask "How are you?" and similar polite introductory queries. Since Ememication©(
There are that minority, yes , that minority of NT's whose initial social queries aren't just niceties, they're heartfelt concern and compassion for another's experiences. They are genuinely concerned for another's welfare.
I am wondering, first, if the rate, complexity, depth and ability of these sincere NT's ememication is comparable to the insincere social querying NT? Do the two communication types occur in inverse proportion?
I.E.- Is LucyPurrs as fluent in ememication as "hayadoin' Fred"? Moreso?
Is there a spectrum of ememication ability?
Or is it "Ya have it or ya don't"?
---
LucyPurrs.
You and I've discussed similar topics, and I am grateful for you, as an example, as a human being, and as a friend. I am far beyond a shadow of a doubt of your sincerity, and, as a result of my exposure to you, well,
I had to set another place at the table. That's, well, that's something. You kinda represented an entirely different, new animal to me, a paradox, an NT that exemplifies everything you claim to hold dear, unquestionably a family member, and a wonderful human being. Please forgive us. Please forgive me.
We'll figure this out. We'll figure it out together, LucyPurrs.
---
I have a niggling feeling that I'm onto some of the right questions.
You couldn't have a better ally(co-conspirator, really), than @Autistamatic to spearhead the dictionary submission, but he'll surprise you, too(watch him, folks, 'cause he's a fairly dangerous man).
I have a niggling feeling that, well, @Progster and @Fridgemagnetman "You're gonna need a bigger boat."
I have a feeling that your discovery and development of concept is going to explain a whole helluva lot more than you originally intended for. I see the concept of "ememe" as providing rich fields of study that could possibly hold clues to the history, prevalence, and continuing necessity for autism in a healthy society.
For starters.
Mother Nature doesn't do anything for no reason.
Yes I think the ememe idea is huge. I like how @Progster has offered examples of it too, and I see what @Fridgemagnetman means about why any example is never true for everyone.
I would also politely query the association of insincerity with the NT process of ritual greetings and use of formulaic sayings. I think NT communication has many conventions, these phrases they use are about a ritual and conventional level of communication that NDs bypass.
Uta Frith used to show a child how to open a ship in a box, if they copied her way of doing it which involved knocking on it and turning it around a few times, then opening it, they were likely NT, if they ignored these movements and just opened it, they were likely ND. That example shows the difference quite well, and also both the value and the problem of the difference, I think.
We are often unaware of convention and social ritual, which to NTs is important, but we often can be original and think outside the box. As they say.
Hi, Thinx. It's late, but I wanted to respond. I think the association is quite simple, here, though. Often, and by their own admission, NT's aren't sincere. Now, I don't necessarily think that this is subterfuge to the person that they are addressing. I think that it serves a dual purpose.
In mountain gorilla society, the silverback protects his "breeding rights" by brute force and main strength of will. Male rogue gorilla's that have been exiled for challenging those rights often prowl around troops, out of sight, trying to cach the attention of a fertile female. Now, if he's seen, he,s in for a beating, maiming, or death.
So, he will stay out of sight of the silverback, yet in sight of the females. If he should catch the eye of a female, whom the silverback watches intently and jealously(he watches all of them), and the female find him an acceptable suitor, the female has a dilemma. Both gorillas can see her simultaneously. She cannot communicate with her suitor without the silverback seeing her. And so, females and rogue gorilla's have worked out an invisible(sic) language. The female gorilla will choose a large leaf. She will place it in her mouth, slowly swing her gaze, and as her gaze passes over the suitor, she gently opens her mouth, and allows the leaf to fall to the ground in acquiescence. The suitor will then retreat through the underbrush to await his tryst.
The silverback noticed nothing out of the ordinary.
I believe that the "social nicety" greetings are the same type of subterfuge. The two people talking are exchanging ememes, while maintaining a near meaningless verbal conversation. The nature of ememication is such that for optimal transmission, they should be close enough to recognize nuance, the hallmark of ememication.
I believe that the verbal conversation is subterfuge for those nearby, to camouflage the real information transfer. It is a working theory of mine, that the verbal conversation is analogous with the leaf drop.
The female is doing something normal, something entirely innocent, in sight of the silverback, in much the same way that "Jane" is asking "Biff" where the broom(closet) is.
10 minutes later, Biff and Jane are in the (broom)closet, and our forbidden gorilla lovers are doing the wild-monkey dance in the jungle.
Verbal conversation provides subterfuge, while the two pass ememes to one another clandestinely; hence the greeting, regardless where the conversation goes, was begun to mislead.
The secret handshake.
Voila---Insincerity.
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So the lesson is ..... never say 'How are you?' to a gorilla.
But I agree.
It can be that, it can also be several others things.
First meeting,2nd meeting, at work, at home, in the mall..
in the jungle...
The ememe, I think, is a way to identify a potential difference in meaning from the NT side, which is also inclusive.
Meaning both sides can use it to more easily accommodate the other.
Agreed. I was addressing only one aspect, which happens to be the most intriguing aspect, to me, at this point.
I also think that the rates are variable in inverse proportions.
I have witnessed, and participated in such conversations, where we were having a somewhat private discussion. Somebody gets close enough, instantly, we really are talking about cars.
As they move away, the conversation veers back to the real subject---what's under her hood, what's the motor look like, How many miles has she got on her, Is she clean.
Yes.
Jane.
We were discussing Jane.
I have found Uncertainty Reduction Theory which was proposed by Charles Berger and Richard Calabrese back in 1975 as a kind of model for the initial stages of relationship development somewhat useful in understanding many kinds of social interactions. I believe it applies equally well to both those on the spectrum and NTs. However, aspies and NTs may seek to reduce different kinds uncertainties associated with communication.
Do you have a specific source for the mountain gorilla story?
I see it as being more like grooming, and I don't mean this in the creepy pervert sense that the term has come to acquire. Many primates that live in social groups practise grooming, that is, they touch and stroke each other, or pick off parasites from their fur, and one reason they do this (apart from wanting to rid themselves of parasites) is that in this way they forge social connections, friendships and allegiances. for them, this is instinctual. It is also how an individual can improve his or her status within the group, and how the individual can be accepted as a member of the community. Humans are similar in that they also often seek similar social connections and status, but humans have developed speech, so their social connections are largely made through speech rather than touching and hence the ememe, they often groom each other using language, by exchanging emotions by means of the ememes and body language signals. So the ememes are a kind of social grooming which can be used to forge alliances or friendships, to improve their status within the group, or to signal their belonging to the group.
Obviously, humans are neither monkeys nor apes, but all beings that live close together in social groups where an individual is just as likely to be a threat as a friend have developed mechanisms to keep the peace, so to speak, to try maintain the harmony of the community, and this, I believe, is why these mechanisms of social interaction have evolved, both in humans and other primates.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. NTs need to have their own puzzle piece logo. Because they completely puzzle us! It really is like Spock or Data trying to understand human behavior.
Thank you so much for this thread. I can't respond the way I want to many of these posts, but... seriously, thank you, so much. I came here today because I was feeling all out of sorts over someone ONCE AGAIN calling me "selfish" because I don't ever ask them "how are you?" This time it was someone who is supposed to be my bff and at least says she is au. Not the first time that's happened with someone who was supposed to be a close friend, but WAS the first time it happened with someone who claims to be au. The real crux in this is... SHE has never said that to me, EITHER. And she said this while she knew I've been going through some sort of major nervous breakdown/meltdown because my boyfriend has been unbearingly inconsiderate, clingy, and controlling... and I'm trying to go through CPTSD recovery right now, which has been a lot of wading through a ton of traumatic memories and trying to heal from them, so I'm really touchy and emotional to start. And she was supposed to be someone that understands that, too...
I came here mainly because I just really needed to feel like I'm not alone in my frustration and inability to socialize in any kind of normal manner.... and unwillingness to, since I reached burnout and can't even mask any more or care to mask... and seeing all these responses that invoke a "me too!" kind of response really, really helps, a TON. I don't feel so alone now, or crazy, or out of line. My therapist and life coach are right when they tell me that I am normal for what I have been through, and not crazy or damaged. I absolutely HATE "ememes," and this thread helped me better define WHY I hate it. I could only say it was "fake" before. Now I understand this goes hand in hand with being autistic, and why it upset me so badly that I was accused of being selfish for not using a "social script." Because that ememe literally is not intended to show you care about someone, it's meant to just make someone feel good and trick them into thinking you care, when you very well may NOT care. So I can now understand this wasn't so much about me being selfish and not caring, but she was getting mad because I don't stroke her ego? in this fashion. And I'm not an ego-stroker. I say what I mean, and mean what I say. If you want to tell me how you are doing, I expect you to simply do so, just like I do with you. The caring and selfless part comes into the fact I will honestly listen, support, advise, and do whatever I can to help you, even if it does mean putting myself second to do so. I didn't do anything wrong...
... This is what is so important to me. <3 Thank you, all.
I came here mainly because I just really needed to feel like I'm not alone in my frustration and inability to socialize in any kind of normal manner.... and unwillingness to, since I reached burnout and can't even mask any more or care to mask... and seeing all these responses that invoke a "me too!" kind of response really, really helps, a TON. I don't feel so alone now, or crazy, or out of line. My therapist and life coach are right when they tell me that I am normal for what I have been through, and not crazy or damaged. I absolutely HATE "ememes," and this thread helped me better define WHY I hate it. I could only say it was "fake" before. Now I understand this goes hand in hand with being autistic, and why it upset me so badly that I was accused of being selfish for not using a "social script." Because that ememe literally is not intended to show you care about someone, it's meant to just make someone feel good and trick them into thinking you care, when you very well may NOT care. So I can now understand this wasn't so much about me being selfish and not caring, but she was getting mad because I don't stroke her ego? in this fashion. And I'm not an ego-stroker. I say what I mean, and mean what I say. If you want to tell me how you are doing, I expect you to simply do so, just like I do with you. The caring and selfless part comes into the fact I will honestly listen, support, advise, and do whatever I can to help you, even if it does mean putting myself second to do so. I didn't do anything wrong...
... This is what is so important to me. <3 Thank you, all.
Yes I can see how it may seem like a trick, to us who are more direct, and added to that we may be feeling general confusion in the interaction. And lots of other stressful stuff, as you note here. What you are doing towards your recovery sounds awesome and difficult, huge respect to you.
However I am still wary of us falling into the trap of negatively labelling what the other group does, in this case NTs. We are frustrated and distressed at being labelled unfeeling, unempathic and so on, which happens because we are not understood. Similarly it's hard for us to understand their ways and why they have evolved. We are different. Not lesser. They are different, not lesser.
I did this as a starting point for the definition.
To represent the idea behind it.
Not negative,as think has just expressed but inclusive .
“The communication divide between the autistic perspective and the neurotypical or normal…” The communication divide between the autistic perspective and the neurotypical or normal…
If you go to the site ,'clap 50 times' then the article gains more prominence.
It also helps to spread the idea.
Or not
To represent the idea behind it.
Not negative,as think has just expressed but inclusive .
“The communication divide between the autistic perspective and the neurotypical or normal…” The communication divide between the autistic perspective and the neurotypical or normal…
If you go to the site ,'clap 50 times' then the article gains more prominence.
It also helps to spread the idea.
Or not
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@Fridgemagnetman , the link takes me to @rollerskate s post in this thread?
I did this as a starting point for the definition.
To represent the idea behind it.
Not negative,as think has just expressed but inclusive .
“The communication divide between the autistic perspective and the neurotypical or normal…” The communication divide between the autistic perspective and the neurotypical or normal…
If you go to the site ,'clap 50 times' then the article gains more prominence.
It also helps to spread the idea.
Or not
Great article! I clapped lots but I don't know if it was counting them it seemed not? Do you have to register for the site for the clapping to work?
