How do People Recognise Flirting?

[icesyckel]

I tried once to write something flirtatious to someone. They responded with: "weird, but good try."

See, I don't know if they meant that to encourage or discourage you? It's ambiguous. Even now, after years of practice, I wouldn't know what to do with that message, lol. Course, I've been married 6 years and am a bit rusty on those skills. Think of all the time I spent developing my ability to flirt, and now it is no longer relevant. Sigh.

 

[icesyckel]

I don't understand the idea of slapping a guy.
I think, as a woman, if it's an instance where the guy is well-intentioned but you (you the woman, not you the person reading this) didn't like it, then just tell him.
If (in a drastically different and far worse situation) it's a potential rapist-get the heck away from the guy-a slap won't do anything but if you can hit hard enough to actually disable him go ahead.

Yeah - slapping isn't really effective for self defense purposes, so you are entirely right. If the guys is nice/non-violent, then just use words and tell him transparently what you mean. If he is a potential rapist, then use a fist, knee, pepper spray, a taser, anything other than an open-handed slap - that's just wasting precious time and energy.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

One book that actually helped me was "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" by John Gray. I still go back to it for reference.

It's not just Aspie guys that don't know what women are thinking or feeling. That is actually the biggest complaint from NT guys - that women just "expect" them to know what they are thinking at any given time. NEWSFLASH to women - NO MAN can read your mind. If a woman wants or needs something from a man, then they have to ask for it (both Aspie and NT men alike). That book was an eye opener for me. I learned a lot.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I tried once to write something flirtatious to someone. They responded with: "weird, but good try."

See, I don't know if they meant that to encourage or discourage you? It's ambiguous. Even now, after years of practice, I wouldn't know what to do with that message, lol. Course, I've been married 6 years and am a bit rusty on those skills. Think of all the time I spent developing my ability to flirt, and now it is no longer relevant. Sigh.

I'm with you guys, I don't get it. What I get from it is: 1) they must think I'm "weird" as that isn't a positive word and 2) "good try" means to me that it didn't work. I wouldn't try again.

 

[icesyckel]

It's the same for women.

To borrow your phrase, "Fair enough."

I don't think there is an appropriate metaphor, to be honest. I understand that some people like "playing hard to get" (I don't; I think it's ********), but I think most reasonable people can tell the difference between mild teasing and a serious "I'm not interested."

For the record, I don't care for "games" generally as the term is used in the context of flirting/dating. However, as I've pointed out, I coped my way through flirting and dating with extensive "rules." Sometimes I think I was so focused on what worked and what didn't for purposes of rule-making, that the whole process would feel arbitrary not unlike the rules of a game. Rules were at best generally effective, with no rule working for 100% of women I dated. For example, after what date is it appropriate to try a kiss? I eventually came to 3 dates unless she sooner made her desire to kill plain. How many dates before I am "leading her on" (whatever that means)? I eventually settled on not a number of dates but dating for more than three months required some sort of "DTR" (define the relationship). Does she have to ask me for exclusivity or is it expected...

So many rules. Sometimes it was fun; others not so much. All I wanted to was to find a way to successfully date. Eventually, with time, it became fun. It was not so in the beginning. Mostly this is because girls would say things they didn't mean. "Can't talk now, call me later" might mean "leave me alone." "I have a boyfriend" might mean she's single but just doesn't like me. "I have to wash my hair" ... well that one is pretty obvious but why not just give me honesty? Sure, some women are honest and say what they mean. Many do not. I never had a problem with being told, "You're not my type." I can't be every girl's type - most guys can't. This saves time and allows me to move on. Telling me you'd like to get together then never setting an actual date? That is weak and wastes my time. Telling me you're not interested but then flirting with me? That is confusing. I already mentioned a girl who told me she wasn't interested but then ended up dating me on and off for a year. How did that happen is she meant what she said? There is no universal constant here. No rosetta stone. It is just trial, error, and probabilities.

I sincerely hope you meant to add that "guys who are jerks" can also play games. But it's a known double standard that men are permitted by society to fool around while women are not.

Yes, there are male and female jerks. I have never dated a guy, so I have never personally had one "play games" with me, but I have no trouble believing that guys too play games with girls. I just lack personal experiences necessary to comment on the subject. I imagine I did "play games" sometimes when I saw that it got results. I was crafting rules based on outcomes. Took me a while to find a compatible woman with whom I could have straightforward conversation and still get positive results. First one who came along, I proposed after 3 dates. I had sufficient data from past dating experiences to recognize her value immediately. We had our first date in March and got married in August.

 

[icesyckel]

I'm with you guys, I don't get it. What I get from it is: 1) they must think I'm "weird" as that isn't a positive word and 2) "good try" means to me that it didn't work. I wouldn't try again.

See I agree with you on "weird'" being negative/discouraging. To me, "good try" implies "close but no cigar, but please try again only better." I think this because if I had written the message it would have said: (1) "your delivery was a little weird, but lets give it a shot"; OR (2) "I'm not interested. Also, you should work on your approach when trying again with someone else in the future."

 

[Grumpy Cat]

"First one who came along, I proposed after 3 dates. I had sufficient data from past dating experiences to recognize her value immediately. We had our first date in March and got married in August."

I'm touched. You're a true gentleman. Proposing after 3 dates is a little quick, I must say, but you had good intentions, were respectful and knew what you wanted. That reminds me of some of my elderly patients who have been married for 50+ yrs - when they tell me how they met their husband or wife they will usually say they met and got married within a few months. You just don't get marriages like that anymore with people who know what they want and aren't afraid to go after it and actually stay married for that long. Most men these days (and women) are too scared to make that big of a commitment (marriage). In fact, a lot of them think it's OK to just live together and never get married. I'm an old fashioned girl who believes in marriage and you give me hope.

 

[o2tosin]

My autie brother proposed to his wife on the FIRST date. They have been married 18 years.

With respect to flirting, I never pick up on it at the time, and there have been instances of NT co-workers pointing out flirtation advances to me. My girlfriends have had to make a direct move (phonecall / invitation) to get my attention.

 

[icesyckel]

"First one who came along, I proposed after 3 dates. I had sufficient data from past dating experiences to recognize her value immediately. We had our first date in March and got married in August."

I'm touched. You're a true gentleman. Proposing after 3 dates is a little quick, I must say, but you had good intentions, were respectful and knew what you wanted. That reminds me of some of my elderly patients who have been married for 50+ yrs - when they tell me how they met their husband or wife they will usually say they met and got married within a few months. You just don't get marriages like that anymore with people who know what they want and aren't afraid to go after it and actually stay married for that long. Most men these days (and women) are too scared to make that big of a commitment (marriage). In fact, a lot of them think it's OK to just live together and never get married. I'm an old fashioned girl who believes in marriage and you give me hope.

I suspect that people think it should take longer to know whether marriage is right because of game playing and mixed signals. My wife is the most straightforward woman I ever met, and so it took little time to get to know her and settle down to "brass tacks." I won't say it was a logical decision - it never is. However, you reach a point where you have seen enough of what is wrong to recognize what is right by difference alone. My wife was unlike any woman I had ever met before, and it made sense to marry her. I'd have been an idiot to wait for someone else to do so. She also is the reason I got Dx'd with AS/D, really. Her observations and knowledge of the condition and comments to me persuaded my to seek an evaluation.

Marriage is better for AS/D, really. It's easier when you find the right person to work things out. Especially since I got Dx'd, things have been so much better between us (and they were pretty good before, really). But now I think I am getting off topic.

 

[icesyckel]

My autie brother proposed to his wife on the FIRST date. They have been married 18 years.

When you're on the spectrum, I think there is a tendency to be more decisive. I think NT's assume we can't hand commitment, and that's not true. We need more understanding, but it doesn't surprise me at all that your brother and his wife have made it 18 years. He met the right woman, made a decision, and did the logical thing. Simple.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

My autie brother proposed to his wife on the FIRST date. They have been married18 years.

When you're on the spectrum, I think there is a tendency to be more decisive. I think NT's assume we can't hand commitment, and that's not true. We need more understanding, but it doesn't surprise me at all that your brother and his wife have made it 18 years. He met the right woman, made a decision, and did the logical thing. Simple.

Both of your stories have made me happy - tears came to my eyes. I had actually given up hope on finding anyone special who also had thoughts (like me) that marriage isn't just some ridiculous pastime that's "outdated". I always wanted to live in the 19th Century when marriages and family were taken more seriously, but now I know there are some "real gentleman" in this time period too! All is not lost! (I know, I'm just a hopeless romantic)

 

[o2tosin]

It gets better Nurse Angela, they were both virgins and did not have sex until after they were married. They were up all night the night of their wedding (The only time I have been a member of a bridal party) so they consummated their marriage some time after. Visiting my parents interstate prior to marrying, they slept in separate rooms.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

It gets better Nurse Angela, they were both virgins and did not have sex until after they were married. They were up all night the night of their wedding (The only time I have been a member of a bridal party) so they consummated their marriage some time after. Visiting my parents interstate prior to marrying, they slept in separate rooms.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh! (Big smile)
That's so sweet! I feel all warm and fuzzy. They are truly special!

 

[Loomis]

I really think this "how to approach romance" thing is much simpler than it is being made out to be in this thread. What has always worked for me is a slow and gradual approach. You hold hands first. Then arm around waist or something similar and when you think it is time to kiss you move slowly. You do not move in quickly before she can get away; that would be totally dumb. Just gradually become more and more physically intimate. If the other person becomes uncomfortable they will let you know.

 

[Ereth]

I really think this "how to approach romance" thing is much simpler than it is being made out to be in this thread.

Perhaps this is true for most people, but obviously the subject has hit a large enough nerve that quite a few of us have felt the need to comment in order to share experiences and/or strategies.

I've never had trouble with my boyfriend, but he's patient, honest, and encouraging. He's also the only person I've ever dated thus far in my life. So I haven't experienced real flirting elsewhere---successful or not. (I'm really lucky. I imagine that I could've had trouble with someone less willing to explain things to me. But he understands. )

 

[icesyckel]

It got much easier with time for me. In the beginning, though, it was hard. Ereth is right - it might be wasy for some, but others of us have to strategize and "learn it." Saying it is simple feels demeaning for some reason, but i know that wasnt your intent.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I really think this "how to approach romance" thing is much simpler than it is being made out to be in this thread. What has always worked for me is a slow and gradual approach. You hold hands first. Then arm around waist or something similar and when you think it is time to kiss you move slowly. You do not move in quickly before she can get away; that would be totally dumb. Just gradually become more and more physically intimate. If the other person becomes uncomfortable they will let you know.

Loomis, I'm curious. Have you ever been slapped?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Granted, I have never personally been pepper sprayed or sued. I have been slapped for kissing a girl, but never when it was clear (to me) that she was uncomfortable with my advances. I never tried to kiss a girl, for example, before at least having had a successful date. I got slapped once on a 3rd date only to learn she had a great time but didn't plan to kiss a guy until her wedding day, so she was pissed I ruined that. Of course, she never shared that with me, and it was the 3rd date. Worst part was, once I learned that was her rule, I knew for certain I didn't want to go out again.

She could've told me at the outset about her atypical rule and saved us both a lot of time. I would never have gone out with her at all had I known. What dude wants to marry a chick he's never kissed? What if you get to the altar, exchange rings, and then realize for the first time that you have no physical chemistry at all? Talk about bad news. I'm not saying you need to "go all the way" before getting married, but never even kissing before marrying? I can't work with that restriction. Also, she gave me every indication she was into me. And she was. She just didn't want to kiss me. Or, rather, she did, but she didn't want to do it until we were getting hitched, which was also weird - she's imagining getting married on date 3, and I am out of line for wanting a kiss? Who was really rushing things...

Another girl slapped me HARD, and then apologized saying, "Oh, no - I didn't mean that it was just a reflex I swear." With reflexes like that, imagine the wedding night? I ain't no John Bobbit. She actually was fine with being kissed, but she left a hand print on my face because I surprised her. She made up for it by getting me ice, and she kissed me while holding the ice pack on. I was shocked.

On the occasions I asked, like Oni, I have also had girls tell me that they would have been fine if I just did it but that the moment was lost. That was why I came up with the whole just tell them and then swoop in. I have found that this gives them warning as previously pointed out, but on one occasion the warning was used to prepare a slap.

Bottom line: if you date enough as a guy, then you will probably get slapped sooner or later, even if by accidental reflex. I have had friends who got pepper-sprayed, and I have to think my warning technique (used for first kisses only) probably saved me from that. I had one friend who got reported to campus police for kissing a girl. Fortunately, she didn't falsely accuse him of something else, but there was an investigation, and his entire dorm went through "training" by university (campus life) staff members. Ironically the cop thought making the report was an "overreaction" since it was one kiss, and the guy never did it again after she told him it was not well received.

All of the above are minority horror stories, though - like less than 10%. Most of the time when I dared to lean in for a kiss, it was well received. In those few cases where I had misjudged, most ladies were cool enough to just politely tell me I had misread their feelings, which I appreciate in comparison to slaps and more severe alternatives.

I have been professionally involved (not as a party or defendant) in several court cases, though, that have caused me to warn most guys about the risks you take just trying to be romantic. I've even seen a case where a guy was accused of stalking for having flowers delivered to a girl he liked. He had asked her out a couple of times politely but unsuccessfully, and he thought sending flowers might show her that he was really serious about liking her and not looking to hurt her. She called the police, and the well-intentioned card he wrote out was tendered into evidence. It was something like, "Dear ______, I am crazy about you and hope you will reconsider going out with me." The word "crazy" on the card was used to justify a restraining order.

So, most of the time you're going to be okay, but there are risks. You can't always avoid taking risks in life, but it is good to actually be aware of them.

It's movies that are to blame for giving the wrong impression of how things are supposed to go. I'm currently watching "27 Dresses" and the main character likes her boss (she is a wedding planner). Anyway, at one of the weddings this other guy sees her and wants to go out on a date, but she says "No". He keeps asking and even sends her flowers! She comes out and tells him to leave her alone and stop his "creepiness". He continues and she eventually goes out with him for drinks when she finds out her boss is interested in her sister. I bet I know how the story is going to end - this woman will start liking the guy who was persistent and who had sent her flowers and they will get married. That's a "chick flick" for ya! This woman even got slapped in the movie too! Imagine that. Only difference was it was her getting slapped by her co-worker for being so interested in her boss - no guy got slapped that I'm aware of ...... yet.

 

[Loomis]

Loomis, I'm curious. Have you ever been slapped?

Yes I have been slapped three times.

The first time was in high school I was on a date with a girl and she said to me "do something naughty." When I did she slapped me. I did not believe then and I do not believe now she was entitled to slap me for complying with her request.

The second time was in college and without going into details I deserved it and apologized.

The third time was during a verbal discussion that was completely unrelated to romance. The woman had a history of being sexually abused as a child and something I said triggered her to slap me. I was not physically interested in her, never touched her, and my conversation had nothing to do with sex. I was dumbfounded by her action and completely clueless as to what it was I did or said.

 

[Loomis]

Perhaps this is true for most people, but obviously the subject has hit a large enough nerve that quite a few of us have felt the need to comment in order to share experiences and/or strategies.

I've never had trouble with my boyfriend, but he's patient, honest, and encouraging. He's also the only person I've ever dated thus far in my life. So I haven't experienced real flirting elsewhere---successful or not. (I'm really lucky. I imagine that I could've had trouble with someone less willing to explain things to me. But he understands. )

I am sorry if I seemed flippant. I was trying to be helpful by explaining that if you move very slowly and gradually toward increased physical intimacy it makes it much less likely you will commit a faux paux.