I am applying to Debenhams in Meadowhall to be a part time sales advisor

[Starfire]

@Starfire, how could you possibly know what he would do if he lost benefits? I doubt anyone on here is omniscient, and I don't think you can judge a person's degree of disability by forum posts. He might end up homeless and starving, he might not -- we have no way of knowing that.

I am not judging his degree of disability, the department of work and pensions is doing that by granting and paying him disability benefit. For your information, I think he’s perfectly capable of doing some sort of work based on the fact he has been able to participate in so must volunteer work over the years.

Also, I don’t need to be omniscient to know what people will do when they are homeless or hungry enough, as they say ‘hunger is a cruel master!’ I have been homeless and lived on the streets, and often gone very hungry, so I’m well aware of the lengths people will go to when they don’t have a comfortable safety net to support them. It’s also that very safety net however, that can also kill any real ambition of self-reliance or help one to see the reality of their situation in that they will also generally be bottom of a potential employers list of candidates. I was also on long term disability for many years so I know how it works. When I did eventually go into employment I could only find very poorly paid work cleaning toilets and maintaining welfare facilities on construction sites, so I literally had to start at the bottom, and work my way up. Not everyone is prepared to get their hands dirty though, it’s far easier to complain endlessly about everything.

 

[the_tortoise]

Also, you have no idea how many of us might be going through the very same challenges, AND have found ways to navigate the disability benefits and working situations. We are peers here trying to help other peers like Rich who have actually asked for help. Rich asks for help all the time on these matters.

That is very true about how some of us on here are have found ways to overcome or work around challenges, but what works for one person will not necessarily work for others.

I think it's a wonderful thing to offer advice and personal experience, but I think it's important to keep in mind that what's possible for one person may be impossible for another.....we all have such different abilities and different life circumstances, and we can't really know much about those things just from forum posts. How can anyone here know that their challenges are the same as those Mr Allen faces....there might be significant similarities, but there might also be significant diffferences that are impossible to see or fully understand.

 

[Mary Anne]

A sobering critique on Britain's ESA benefits. Lengthy reading, although it seems to cover a number of issues that have come up with so many of Rich's attempts to secure paid employment.

If these are truly many concerns on the part of the public, politicians, bureaucrats and especially prospective employers, I can see how it's possible that much of anyone on long-term ESA benefits may in fact be shunned from the workforce. Made worse if one factors in the political wrath of social conservatism among a relatively evenly divided electorate.

Imagine if it were a widely-held perception that the "scarlet letter" wasn't being disabled per se, but rather simply receiving long-term ESA benefits.

https://www.centreforwelfarereform.org/library/by-az/thoughts-on-esa.html

If I was in such a situation, after reading this I would attempt to seek out anyone who might be presently employed for pay, while still receiving long-term ESA benefits. And to research as to what government sources publish in the way of such statistics reflecting those part time workers.

And that if you can't find such feedback, perhaps there is your real answer. Where discrimination may in fact be institutionalized by the same bureaucracy charged to enforce the very same laws against it.

That is a lot of tedious reading - somI just skimmed it. It’s the same here in the states. I have worked with lots of people with disability benefits. Some want to work and are scared of losing benefits. (Not to mention jeopardizing health coverage). Others love the security that benefits brings them and refuse to work at all despite having the full abilities to do so (even while disabled.). It’s all a huge mess, as there are people on all sides of this thing, and societal stigmas, and a system that being jeapaordised by current political leaders who want everyone taking benefits, food stamps, health coverage, etc to work or else lose them. But if one works, one does lose them despite all the rhetoric telling them they won’t.

Here is the thing though. I ask people What is the true cost of staying stuck on disability? You might be able to get out and volunteer (which is a form or valuable work), or get a part time job and get paid for it (difficult if one has not worked in years). The plus of working or volunteering is ten fold to being stuck in the “disability cycle” of loss of power and control over one’s life.

The hope is that once working, you will increase your wages over time, grow your confidence, grow your experience, and need less disability services over time. Even people with permanent disabilities might be able to have some employment revenues. It just depends. Some start their own business. What is crucial is to find a way to empower oneself. Do not be forced wait for that monthly benefits check! Do not be forced to work with agencies and poor food donations at the pantries. In working , even if it’s volunteer, one can grow confidence, gain social and marketable skills, and hopefully be able to move up and onward. But, if still permanently stuck in the disability cycle....one still can grow empowerment and self esteem. Never give in to “just being “disabled.” Been there myself, done it, and will never go back to being stuck and disempowered.

 

[Judge]

Here is the thing though. I ask people What is the true cost of staying stuck on disability? You might be able to get out and volunteer (which is a form or valuable work), or get a part time job and get paid for it (difficult if one has not worked in years). The plus of working or volunteering is ten fold to being stuck in the “disability cycle” of loss of power and control over one’s life.

That may be what is ultimately at stake here. Where the only truly viable option is to withdraw from being on disability in the first place. Perhaps analogous to giving up a long term drug habit. Where there is no way to avoid severe consequences and endure great sacrifices in a quest to attain a more conventional existence.

With the scary part of the equation remaining uncertainty given such benefits remain in the hands of politicians and bureaucrats. Where any number of variables could rescind such benefits in part or whole.

But there is one common denominator in it all. The simple truth that one must risk a great deal if they seek to substantially improve their lives. Such opportunities seldom come without any strings attached. I know personally life backed me into a corner and I ultimately had to put at risk everything I had to come out ahead. Where instead of continuing to seek work, I simply began to generate my own capital based on previous work skills. But always at risk of the capital I already had. Without any guarantees.

 

[the_tortoise]

For your information, I think he’s perfectly capable of doing some sort of work based on the fact he has been able to participate in so must volunteer work over the years.

That makes sense.

But I never said he was incapable of doing any work at all....you seem to think he's capable of doing as much work as he needs to do to meet his basic needs -- I am not certain of that, either way.

Also, I don’t need to be omniscient to know what people will do when they are homeless or hungry enough, as they say ‘hunger is a cruel master!’ I have been homeless and lived on the streets, and often gone very hungry, so I’m well aware of the lengths people will go to when they don’t have a comfortable safety net to support them.

Yes, people will do what they can when they are desperate, but you are making a lot of assumptions about what Mr Allen would be able to do.

Lots of people who live on the streets are unable to work at all due to disability, and I'm sure you know how difficult it is to find any work at all when you're living on the streets even if you're capable of working any job you're offered. If you are one of the lucky few who manage to find and keep a regular job while living on the street, to get themselves into a better situation (especially if you do it without much or any help -- i.e. social support services like access to free or very low cost clothing, food, showers, computers for printing out resumes and searching for jobs, temporary shelter, medical care, etc.), I'm very glad for you and I admire the inner resources it takes -- but the reality is that not everyone can do that.

 

[Mr Allen]

That may be what is ultimately at stake here. Where the only truly viable option is to withdraw from being on disability in the first place. Perhaps analogous to giving up a long term drug habit. Where there is no way to avoid severe consequences and endure great sacrifices in a quest to attain a more conventional existence.

With the scary part of the equation remaining uncertainty given such benefits remain in the hands of politicians and bureaucrats. Where any number of variables could rescind such benefits in part or whole.

But there is one common denominator in it all. The simple truth that one must risk a great deal if they seek to substantially improve their lives. Such opportunities seldom come without any strings attached. I know personally life backed me into a corner and I ultimately had to put at risk everything I had to come out ahead.

I know what you're saying, and I would risk every penny the government begrudgingly gives me in order to work if that was the only way, but on the other hand, with the current trend in sanctioning the pants off everybody they can for the slightest reason, I dare not risk it because if I get sanctioned, I lose the Flat and everything, and I am nowhere near old enough at 42 to go into residential care as a disabled adult, plus about 16 years ago I went in the local respite Home up Woodhouse for a week, and came Home after about 3 days because I hated the place, they don't do anything but leave the clients to vegetate in front of the idiot box while the staff do their work, I spent the majority of the time in my room playing Xbox.

 

[Judge]

I know what you're saying, and I would risk every penny the government begrudgingly gives me in order to work if that was the only way, but on the other hand, with the current trend in sanctioning the pants off everybody they can for the slightest reason, I dare not risk it because if I get sanctioned, I lose the Flat and everything, and I am nowhere near old enough at 42 to go into residential care as a disabled adult, plus about 16 years ago I went in the local respite Home up Woodhouse for a week, and came Home after about 3 days because I hated the place, they don't do anything but leave the clients to vegetate in front of the idiot box while the staff do their work, I spent the majority of the time in my room playing Xbox.

Would your parents ever consider allowing you to live with them? Might be your best most viable option if you were to seek work without benefits. (On a premise that attempting to supplement your ESA benefits with paid work just won't happen.)

And that you might have to endure great sacrifices in order to truly improve your life beyond the limitations of ESA benefits. If you're unwilling to even consider such sacrifices, that too is something to ponder.

Though I have no idea about how your country's bureaucracy operates in terms of getting such benefits back in the event you still cannot find work. And I can't help but wonder about the possible stigma created in being previously dependent upon ESA for so many years.

 

[Mr Allen]

Would your parents ever consider allowing you to live with them? Might be your best most viable option if you were to seek work without benefits.

Though I have no idea about how your country's bureaucracy operates in terms of getting such benefits back in the event you still cannot find work.

2 things:

I can't move back Home for various reasons too personal to disclose, also, in the UK, once you come out of the benefit system, getting back on the "Horse" if and when you need it is literally like getting blood out of a very large Stone.

It took me over 23 years to get disability benefits in the first place until I was diagnosed Aspie in October 1999, because nobody knew what was actually "wrong" with me, not Doctors, Shrinks, or anybody else.

 

[Starfire]

Yes, people will do what they can when they are desperate, but you are making a lot of assumptions about what Mr Allen would be able to do.

I am making no assumptions about what Rich would or would not be able to do. He has posted at great lengths about the work he has done in various charity shops. He has also posted about his diabetes, bad back, hearing difficulties, being Aspie etc etc. So I have no need to make assumptions, I am working off what he has said.

I am also indeed well aware of the near impossibility of getting any (legal) work while living on the streets, but Rich doesn’t live on the streets. I had to get help to eventually get temporary accommodation and get on benefits whilst also having a heroin addiction.

I used food banks and accepted charity, gratefully. Over the preceding years I had the same problem as Rich, I got stuck in the benefits trap, because it’s so easy to let that happen to oneself. I had to put myself through night school and learn a trade while cleaning toilets. I didn’t talk about it, think about it, ponder doing it, look at the down sides and the cost, I went out to college sun rain or snow. Rich is talking about and has been for some time about college for programming. The thing is though if you don’t do it, you don’t do it. Eventually there comes a time to stop talking and be proactive. It’s scary, it costs when money is in short supply, it’s a risk and you rock the boat, a lot.

The alternative is remaining in the benefits trap, and stagnation to the point of never being in a position to find any paying job, never mind being fussy about what you are prepared to do. That choice, is taken away from you!

 

[Judge]

2 things:

I can't move back Home for various reasons too personal to disclose, also, in the UK, once you come out of the benefit system, getting back on the "Horse" if and when you need it is literally like getting blood out of a very large Stone.

It took me over 23 years to get disability benefits in the first place until I was diagnosed Aspie in October 1999, because nobody knew what was actually "wrong" with me, not Doctors, Shrinks, or anybody else.

If this article I posted carries any weight in how policy is developed and discussed in your country's social welfare system, I suspect there's simply too many entities within both the public and private sectors which perceive you into a nebulous category unworthy of paid labor even on a part-time basis.

That you may well be exactly where Britain intends you to be. No more and no less.

That it also remains your choice to remain on those limited benefits rather than risk any chance to better your circumstances through inevitable and highly-risky sacrifices. Though I also suspect most rational citizens would likely lament that it is never government's real intention for citizens "to have their cake and eat it too".

That if you accept such government entitlements, you also have to accept the financial mediocrity that goes with them. In the interest of your own mental health. Forget the conventional political arguments.

And perhaps most of all, don't allow work to define who you really are.

 

[owlet]

@Mr Allen I was wondering if you'd like any resources for CVs and cover letters. I've been using one site in particular for mine and I've had some success with it (I got a bunch of interviews, even if I ultimately didn't get those jobs). I really recommend not mentioning any disability until you have a job offer and only if they say you have to.

Work places have to make reasonable adjustments for all staff, not just people with disabilities, so you might be able to get around it, but don't mention it unless you absolutely have to. Buy a clip on tie and don't mention it at all unless they bring it up (then use an excuse like it's for health and safety as if it gets caught in anything, it can be quickly removed).

Maybe check out what you legally have to declare.
At this stage, you don't want anything singling you out, so try to avoid anything about disabilities and never phrase anything negatively in an application (i.e. never say what you can't do, just avoid talking about it altogether).

 

[Mr Allen]

You and MrSpock speak such truths. Sense of entitlement, self pity, anger and years of frustration have created Rich’s opinions. He has not considered working for himself in computers or whatever else he has talents in. There are non profits that help people set up a small sole proprietorship. When you work for yourself, you can set the prices, and the hours you work. You can still get disability benefits too.

I also agree, he keeps interviewing for businesses he may not be qualified for, or his attitude negatively colors the interview right from the start. Whatever the problem, it’s time to try uniquely different approaches, and change his “stinkin’ self thinkin.’ “

Actually I have considered running my own IT support Business, I een came up with a name for it, RACE (Rich Allen Computer Enterprises) and a slogan "Let Rich help you win thee race for excellent IT solutions", catchy innit? I would just never be able to afford A) A Business loan or B) Get Business premises because I can't run a Business from the Flat.