I had enough of faith and belief in God

[Magna]

There's no way that a loving God WOULDN"T also love autistics as much as any other person God creates.

"Belief" and "Faith". Very interesting concepts because some people are incapable of just believing something that's completely unverifiable or not logical. Often having a literal and logical mind is an autistic trait; I can certainly say that's the case for me. So....would a loving God punish or exclude people who have a way of thinking that is more logical and literal and as such don't or can't just "believe" or have "faith"? I don't think so. That would make God ableist.

 

[Dagan]

My opinions...but they are based on facts:


ALL God(s) equal to a paradox, indeed.

God(s) always make so many demands of us - always asking or putting the burden for proof, faith, belief, worship on "us" - we aren't allowed to ask or demand such in return, though..? That's rather narcissistic convenience don't you think? It shouldn't be hard to comprehend that said God(s) doesn't want to give much...instead is constantly making demands and constantly wants, needs, desires, takes... Nothing about such a being should be considered perfect or what any of us should want to be like. "Perfection" in and of itself, the very definition, it will never need or want...ever. It is, always has and always will have everything. It does not and should not need, want or desire your love, your worship, your penance, your tithes, etc. etc. etc. That text's God is beyond a paradox...or just a really powerful asshole narcissist.

Per the bible itself, think of any of the 85 sins listed. Sins...and yet that God does every single one of them and multiple times. Wrath, Boasting, Unforgiveness, Wickedness, Pride, Jealousy, Jesting, Fathers asking their children for wrath, Desiring praise of men, etc. etc. etc. Paradox / contradictions.

The fact that you even question a single thing about God should let you know that it's not perfect, it's not clear to you, it's not in control (unless you consider the chaos of uncertainty controlling your thoughts, which is absolutely not a "good" thing, assuredly), and it doesn't "move in you." Arguably, the only "moves" with you could be seen as making you a pawn...but it's likely this way because of devout / zealous believer types in better standing tend to be that way with the lesser fortunate believers. It's very much grooming and conditioning tactics. Intelligence agencies and high governments use the same methods to get what they want. They learned it from a history of church records dating back to the Vatican on how to infiltrate and take control of whole empires. It's rather tried and true. I want no part of such a thing.

Such a method is exactly stated in this thread. "We are made to suffer." That's horrible - no one should just be so defeated that they accept that, and worse is that it's a sign of abuse - Stockholm syndrome, essentially. Especially when others in this world just happen to be better off in any way, shape or form...I demand to know what's the point? What is the lesson for me? What lesson are the better off learning in comparison? Is the lesson that God likes to be random and let people be snobs with everything...and then others of us get to be angry because we struggle so much that we have trouble finding good spirits? Also, doesn't it come across as the most infuriating contradiction that if you seriously want more good people to die, go to heaven, join the flock and eventually fight armageddon against those souls from Hell....that you would actually do a lot to prevent said people from being miserable, angry and eventually choosing or resorting to hating not only you but also their fellow kind - even going to heinous lengths at times to try getting ahead..?!?!?!?!? Said God is absolutely creating an exponentially greater army against it. Again...a huge paradox. The only way that isn't a contradiction is if it's all being done on purpose, and that would make that God an even bigger, prideful, arrogant A-hole...just building its own challenge to face...like some kid with a video game that gets to decide the map and hardness level. I just can't sit well with that.

Watch the world news this very minute, even. What are these people doing?!?!? The very same races of people who even came up with and originally told Biblical / Judeo stories are exactly who still can't get along at all...ever. I don't see any love going on. I don't see anything but sin. I see a huge paradox going on from the very people who created the major religions in this world and are constantly trying to get more people to buy into them. I see absolutely no proof of their Gods. And I hope no one thinks of pointing out "miracles" like a handful of kids were spared under tons of blasted concrete. What!? That's a pitiful excuse for positive perspective, and yet it happens a lot...always seemingly some small bit of good that comes out of an enormous, heinous act (that no God(s) should have ever let happen in the first place), and "that's" their proof of a loving, caring God...?!?!?!?! Nah. I'm smarter than that.

I'm constantly reading, researching, trying to make it all make sense...but the only sense I have found is that none of them are to be trusted any more than Grimm's Fairy Tales. There are lessons here and there, yes, but they aren't what you should base your entire existence upon because doing so just creates powerful armies that eventually try to eradicate any others for dominance. Break it all back down to its core, though, and you understand that all of it was done because it creates economies...it's about making money...and either you literally bought into it...or like me you refuse to.

 

[Judge]

Such a method is exactly stated in this thread. "We are made to suffer." That's horrible - no one should just be so defeated that they accept that, and worse is that it's a sign of abuse - Stockholm syndrome, essentially.

That's because like most mortal humans, you perceive pain and suffering only from a mortal perspective.

-Completely understandable.

However what if all that pain and suffering doesn't exist on our primary plane of existence? That it's simply something to be used as a tool for enlightening every soul to improve themselves by. Where pain is just a conscious, yet harmless memory of the result of numerous reincarnations. That we choose to suffer such an existence, based on our own reasoning as an immortal soul.

Which may sound abhorrent to the average mortal soul, but reflects how magnanimous we truly are as immortal souls on a very different- and primary plane of existence. With man-made threats of fire, brimstone, judgment and retribution contained only within in the realm of a mortal, earthly existence.

In essence, "on the other side" we don't go to college for a "higher education". We reincarnate to here. Where it isn't cosmically intended to have all the answers or skate through a difficult life. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of temporarily becoming mortal with all it's fragility and weaknesses. Something to be concerned with while we are all here, but not when we return "home".

All of which seems to cosmically explain "why bad things happen to good people".

 

[BobbiSueEllen]

Y'know...I understand. Long before I was diagnosed, I became a Believer. Not a perfect one but one willing to grow & learn. It's been 36 years now.

A lot has gone on: an elder tried to rape me, my ex-wife turned out to be unfaithful over & over again during 13-1/2 years of marriage, I was hampered by undiagnosed autism...my marriage collapsed, disability hit (severe fibro), everything went upside-down and shook...with me hanging on for dear life. Friends left, some died, docs failed. This was a very big nadir.

I had times, and still do, when my faith is in doubt. But the one thing that it all comes back to is I can't blame God. If this was Heaven, damn right I would. But this isn't Heaven; it's Earth, and it is built upon the human glory of failure, hypocrisy, hate and victimization. Even when I shake my own fist at the sky because my family doesn't understand me for my autism, when others give me a "you f***ing retard" look and that I'll never triumph to any degree over this while here...I tell myself "This is not Heaven. This is a flawed place where we have to survive, to overcome until we eventually get there".

So I forgive & dismiss the others because I'll never see the vast majority of them again...and I focus on the beauty of geography & weather as a nice break from it all. I take pictures, archive them. Reflect.

If I hated God, I'd be no better than those who seem to hate me. We didn't choose to be born and we have to fight to get our daily needs met. It doesn't seem fair, but to quote Joe Jackson on God, "Where can we get a better deal?" We know we'll all die, sometime, somehow...I'm a pragmatist so I don't worship in glorious cathedrals because I don't dig that stuff. So I just keep fighting on hope.

There will come a day when we ascend; I don't want to draw a last breath while looking back, only to see I did nothing at all. Whatever my next station be, when I get there, I wanna know what I fought for was worth it all.

Your mileage may vary. And keep talking!

P.S. -- I believe God has no gender, race or color. How can anyone so perfect be so stilted by them?

 

[Aspychata]

@Dagan These are interesting points, and my friend always says follow the money trail to get to the bottom of the dilemma. So walking thru life being aware of conditioning, and sorting the ethical path from corporate or government greed is a slippery path, and l find myself evaluating and starting to look at the bigger picture always.

 

[Judge]

P.S. -- I believe God has no gender, race or color. How can anyone so perfect be so stilted by them?

Agreed. Yet another aspect of how mortals identify with a mortal understanding of things. Even God.

Humans are a mighty ethnocentric bunch. Scary to consider how they may react and respond when eventually confronted by non-humans.

 

[Dagan]

That's because like most mortal humans, you perceive pain and suffering only from a mortal perspective.

What if all that pain and suffering doesn't exist on our primary plane of existence? That it's simply something to be used as a tool for enlightening every soul to improve themselves by. Where pain is just a conscious, yet harmless memory of one of many reincarnations.

Then what is the whole belief system surrounding Heaven or Hell for...??? If you go to Heaven, you will feel all the great things! If you go to Hell, you will feel all of the worst, torturous things! There's no logical point in any of that, especially when said God could just teach us every single thing necessary at any given moment...but rather chooses not to because it's so preoccupied with hopefully something else more important ?!?!?

It's further pointless if you have had the death experience that I have...where whatever I could think of or imagine is what "became" that moment...realizing that's all any of us truly are. Your eternal afterlife is just consciousness lingering on, essentially. Still, if you are this great, glorious and good GOD worthy of worship, and all of our eternities after death are based on what we do ( directly because of what we are allowed to deal with ) on Earth, then why aren't you (great and powerful God) doing all that you can to help us and prevent the negatives that you are supposed to know will directly affect us and make us turn away from you?

Endless paradoxes. I will try to better explain with a circular analogy of practically every God:

I'm God - I'm PERFECT - I know everything that ever was and ever will be - I have all that I need - I am the best of the best (also the worst of the worst, but we won't get into that - focus on my good stuff) - I suddenly "want" to create animals, trees, fish, mammals, etc. - I suddenly want some of these creatures to worship me! - I want their worship to be sacrificing some of the other creatures - That's not like I thought it would be, so let's try making them sacrifice their own kind to my praise! - That's not like I thought it would be, either, so maybe I just need to back the stronger believers and suggest they kill off the others? - Okay, let's just wipe out practically everything and start over with a handful of them - Okay, this isn't going so well, still, so I'm going to have to exist amongst them to try and make it work out better - Well, crap, that still didn't really work out - I know, let's just start back with the stronger trying to force my beliefs onto others by any means necessary - Let's put it in a book and print it for everyone and even create people who preach it constantly! - OMG, why is this so complicated!? - Okay, just let even bigger and bigger wars occur to try and get the point across - Are you kidding me?!? This is just getting worse. What do I have to do?

That is basically every religious text summarized. That alone is enough paradox and contradictions to make someone disbelieve it. The texts contain expansively more contradictions, of course. Still, just look at the simplest issues there. An all powerful, all knowing entity keeps doing the opposite of what it claims to even be. The only thing that I am left to believe is that there may well be a way more powerful entity that exists...but it is not perfect...and it is learning just as much as we are, otherwise it wouldn't keep making mistakes and having to take different approaches.

 

[Judge]

Then what is the whole belief system surrounding Heaven or Hell for...??? If you go to Heaven, you will feel all the great things!

It's a bit sad, but it's about fragile humans who only relate to what we understand based on our immediate environment. That's what I mean by our species being so "ethnocentric".

That for so many, it's all about Hell or Heaven. Risk or reward. Do this or else! -All very earthly values. Not relevant to our primary plane of existence. Yet so many craft their spiritual existence tied to such values indicative of only a temporary plane of existence.

I just don't see our deity with such a flawed, earthly thought process. But then that's religion...a manifestation of man more than God.

 

[Dagan]

Okay, I understand you. And, yes, it's worsened by the fact that it's always said God(s) that exactly make demands for heaven or hell...risk or reward...etc. So, again, the burden of proof is always on we the simple humans...never the God(s).

 

[The Pandector]

Please pray for me because I am really sick and there is no one to help and very fearful.

Just to state the obvious, @lovely_darlingprettybaby ... When you ask other people to pray for you, you are acknowledging first that there is indeed a God, and second that you are in such desperate need of his help that you are asking others to speak to him on your behalf.

Some of the world's greatest thinkers have wrestled with God on the issue of evil in this world. Jeremiah and Job both tried holding God to account for the order of things here on earth. However, both of them talked respectfully to God on the subject, rather than telling third parties that God had abused them. Sound guidance, that.

I join the chorus here saying that God certainly loves you; because he knit you together in your mother's womb, he's been fully aware of your autism since before you figured it out.

In relationships with other people, we do give-and-take. But it's not wise, if you value the relationship, to tell the other that you'll only believe they love you IF they do such-and-such. It's emotional blackmail and a failure of love on your part. In your relationship with God, woman, you don't get to give-and-take; that's why he's called the Lord.

I'm personally assured in the Bible that God has given you, @lovely_darlingprettybaby , everything you need to live the life that God wants you to lead. But you will never discover the path he wants you to walk if you spend your time obsessing about what a raw deal he's handed you. My feet hurt too, girl, but this is the path and these are the shoes. Think lions and human torches; this isn't so bad.

I'm also very confident that God will forgive you for badmouthing him... if you just ask him to. Ask him for forgiveness for being so vocally snitty towards him, and also ask for eyes to see the path. Because... you obviously do not have your eyes on that path. Quit complaining and try finding what you can be grateful for; that will help point you towards the path you seek.

God understands that his children occasionally overload, autistic or not. But you're not going to make forward motion by shaking your fist at him.

A word on 'nobody to help you.'
Consider the possibility that there are plenty of people in your life who would love to help you, but you reject their efforts because part of you prefers to cry publicly rather than move forward. You're young; thank the Lord for tears and start living the life God is trying to give you.

 

[Aspychata]

Because religion is basically based on some magical beliefs, with the final message of don't do bad things. So to push the message is the marketing aspect of hell or heaven as a reward or punishment. So God does have to be magical concept, because you aren't going to worship Joe Blow who lives next door and has the same issues as you. God has to be held in higher esteem then the average person, then we need to feel guilty, because his son gave up his life for our sins or something like this. So the whole concept is to help us believe and not question what is presented. I take a simpler approach, just be a kind person. I don't have any issues with religion because there are others who struggle with the why this, why that, why do l exist. Religion serves a very important need in society and some churches truly practice helping those in need, and l try to support these types of organizations if possible.

 

[Magna]

Because religion is basically based on some magical beliefs, with the final message of don't do bad things. So to push the message is the marketing aspect is hell or heaven as a reward or punishment. So God does have to be magical concept, because you aren't going to worship Joe who lives next door and has the same issues as you. God has to be held in higher esteem then the average person, then we need to feel guilty, because his son gave up his life for our sins or something like this. So the whole concept is to help us believe and not question what is presented. I take a simpler approach, just be a kind person.

Good points. On the "feeling guilty" part: Why would or should any human being, mammals and primates that we are, living and trying to survive on a planet along with the whole host of other living things here feel guilty toward an Omnipotent being that created us? Feeling pitiful in comparison, I could imagine some would be, but guilty?

That would be like the richest person in the world berating their five year old for not being as rich as they and expecting the five year old to feel guilty about their ineptitude in comparison to the parent's resplendent brilliance.

 

[The Pandector]

I am questioning that. I went to their dinner yesterday and the couples talked to me, the woman with the boyfriend talked to me but the one single woman would not give me the time of day and I sat right next to her. It was only the six of us, me, plus a 3 year old girl. Also she been their a few times before totally ignored me then too.

I remember when I first approached her at church how standoffish she was. She was talking to this guy who could barely speak English for over ten minutes so after she was done I nervous went up to her and said. Hi my name is Tony. She said her name. Then said I have to put away the tables. That was the last thing she ever said too me. What a snob. Only me she ignores. She talks to everyone else. This is how most single women treat me and yes I blame God.

I'm struck again with the fact that your love and appreciation of God has very much to do with how you are doing with women. "I will love and approve of you, God, if and when you get me a woman" is pretty much the essence of some of your posts. It's a real mistake in life to think that God was created in order to please you, rather than you being created in order to please him.

The woman you speak of almost certainly saw you approaching her with interest beyond Bible verses. No problem with that, unless you believe she's obligated to pretend that particular sort of interest in return. Just as with God, that woman's purpose and goal in life has little to do with pleasing you. On the contrary, most women find that it is unwise to encourage an obvious suitor in whom they have no interest. Her moving right on to moving furniture wasn't a cruel rebuke; she could see you were on the prowl and it fell to her to make clear that she was not. That doesn't make you a victim of anything other than your own desires. To blame that on God is not rational.

I'll tell you again... If you are attending church for the purpose of meeting marriageable women, then they know that. Get straight with that, @Tony Ramirez . They see you coming. BUT... if you're in a good congregation... if you change your heart and start showing up with a burning desire to understand Scripture but limited interest in single women (not for two meetings, but maybe for two months) they will start to see that, as well, and so will God. Heads up: many single sisters will take interest in a man who has recently turned his life around and is actively engaged in spiritual growth, and God will always reward honest inquiry into his word. Just be aware; the reward someone demands from God will almost certainly not be the one he decides to give.

 

[The Pandector]

Because religion is basically based on some magical beliefs, with the final message of don't do bad things. So to push the message is the marketing aspect of hell or heaven as a reward or punishment. So God does have to be magical concept, because you aren't going to worship Joe who lives next door and has the same issues as you. God has to be held in higher esteem then the average person, then we need to feel guilty, because his son gave up his life for our sins or something like this. So the whole concept is to help us believe and not question what is presented. I take a simpler approach, just be a kind person. I don't have any issues with religion because there are others who struggle with the why this, why that, why do l exist. Religion serves a very important need in society and some churches truly practice helping those in need, and l try to support these types of organizations if possible.

I appreciate your comments.

However... If Christianity were in any way intended as a marketing concept, no ad campaign ever fell so far from the mark. First, repent; IOW, dedicate your life to living an existence foreign to human flesh. During that life, Jesus guarantees we will not only have turmoil with our own flesh, but will be held in low esteem by the hostile masses of humanity, likely to result in persecution (if you're doing it right). Sure, there's the eternal reward to hope upon, but as Paul wrote, "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." This is no ad campaign.

 

[Aspychata]

What's really interesting is that churches existed long before psychologists, counselors, social workers did. And often the priests, and or nuns acted in this capacity for the community at large. My mom went to a boarding school run by nuns, but sadly , she seems to have some bad memories of this. My grandmother was a single mother, and felt she couldn't work and raise a daughter, and this was the best way to go. Churches often counsel couples through marital conflicts.

 

[Magna]

However... If Christianity were in any way intended as a marketing concept, no ad campaign ever fell so far from the mark. First, repent; IOW, dedicate your life to living an existence foreign to human flesh. During that life, Jesus guarantees we will not only have turmoil with our own flesh, but will be held in low esteem by the hostile masses of humanity, likely to result in persecution (if you're doing it right). Sure, there's the eternal reward to hope upon, but as Paul wrote, "If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." This is no ad campaign.

The "selling points" or lack thereof for a "campaign" such as this are really almost immaterial. You're referencing the particulars which again are really immaterial because......the ultimate marketing message is all that matters and in this case could be: "Buy this product/service. If you don't, you'll literally live for eternity in agonizing torture. Your choice."

 

[Dagan]

Pandector.... Job was a wager between God and Satan that should have never been allowed. No loving "Father" allows the worst, unspeakable evils upon their "child" just to prove that child's love and/or loyalty...to anyone...for any reason. Absolute narcissism. That book is also the first horror story that I ever read, actually. The second is Revelations. The only lessons they teach is that said God can and will do whatever it wants, whenever it wants and that you are to never question its ways because of the power it has over you and will absolutely exact upon you without regret.

It's also amazingly contradictory to explain what emotional blackmail is...and then you use it by explaining that you and others have it bad or worse (lions or torches), so people here should not worry or focus on their own struggles - so just get back to the worshipping and being thankful for what you have part. To another, you speak as if you know the intentions of theirs and exactly the thinking of others in their congregation. You have a very pretentious stance of what "absolutely is." I call BS. I won't blame you entirely, though because like I already explained...that's a tactic taught from and by the churches, preachers, priests, clergy...since forever. Essentially, "well, we can't have any of this questioning...just keep accepting life as it is and keep begging some supposed loving entity for better treatment and options" .....at whatever later date it will or won't decide upon, of course. I see and hear this kind of blind and empathy lacking defense of religions constantly. I will always call it out because it's beyond not cool. There is no love in it whatsoever.

There's more issue with you saying "...God will always reward honest inquiry into his word. Just be aware; the reward someone demands from God will almost certainly not be the one he decides to give..." --- You just proved that it makes no sense for anyone to have specific prayers at all...ever. It's completely pointless and just proves your God is an even bigger narcissist than I already explained. This God must also hate Burger King, everyone because you will never be able to ask to have things your way. The overall fault in this instance being...why even want to go to this God's heaven, then? We're told that its heaven will consist of all that we could ever desire...but how is that, exactly...how is that guaranteed and that we can trust it when this same God won't even guarantee meeting our needs here in this complex, full of struggles existence that we never even asked for? We are given very little to trust at all. In fact, the only entity that gave us this existence according to you staunch believers is this same God that is supposed to never once have want, need, desire or anything such. And yet, here we are, constantly dealing with struggles, pain, and all this God can focus on is scaring us / forcing us to love and worship it ?!?!?!?!? PARADOX.

 

[Aspychata]

@The Pandector , if they sold you, yes it's a brilliant marketing technique. And l truly dont fault you at all. I could simply believe in the concepts you mention in a simple generic thought. Like yes, there is something more to be outside of my simple existence. However l don't have to attach emotionally trigger words like persecution or pity, or my flesh into thy equation, and this is way philosophy exists, it doesn't have the emotional trigger words. But l do enjoy reading about Judaism concepts, l like some things about the Catholic doctrine. I like taking some of the Buddhist concepts into my thoughts also to be a better person.

 

[Aspychata]

@Dagan , yes, everything is you are inferior, and will be inferior until the end of your existence, it's basically a giant guilt message to keep you in your place, trying to achieve the gold ring, which you will never get, otherwise you wouldn't need the doctrine of you are a failure. It's a brilliant marketing technique and has ensnared many. The cosmetic industry uses the same you are inferior message. I like that thought process of how do you know you are guaranteed a happy afterlife when you can barely get thru this one. And if the God is so judgemental now, who's to say l won't get kicked out of the afterlife for just being a idiot? Knowing me, l would say something stupid and get kicked out. So l think l will just try to be a good person, and attempt to keep striving to be better and respect other's rights to be Christian, Catholic, atheist, etc.

 

[Tony Ramirez]

I'm struck again with the fact that your love and appreciation of God has very much to do with how you are doing with women. "I will love and approve of you, God, if and when you get me a woman" is pretty much the essence of some of your posts. It's a real mistake in life to think that God was created in order to please you, rather than you being created in order to please him.

The woman you speak of almost certainly saw you approaching her with interest beyond Bible verses. No problem with that, unless you believe she's obligated to pretend that particular sort of interest in return. Just as with God, that woman's purpose and goal in life has little to do with pleasing you. On the contrary, most women find that it is unwise to encourage an obvious suitor in whom they have no interest. Her moving right on to moving furniture wasn't a cruel rebuke; she could see you were on the prowl and it fell to her to make clear that she was not. That doesn't make you a victim of anything other than your own desires. To blame that on God is not rational.

I'll tell you again... If you are attending church for the purpose of meeting marriageable women, then they know that. Get straight with that, @Tony Ramirez . They see you coming. BUT... if you're in a good congregation... if you change your heart and start showing up with a burning desire to understand Scripture but limited interest in single women (not for two meetings, but maybe for two months) they will start to see that, as well, and so will God. Heads up: many single sisters will take interest in a man who has recently turned his life around and is actively engaged in spiritual growth, and God will always reward honest inquiry into his word. Just be aware; the reward someone demands from God will almost certainly not be the one he decides to give.

And I heard it over and over and over and over and over from here and all my married acquaintances I am tired of it. I just heard it today and my married acquaintance even said my odds of getting an girlfriend are slim to none.