I only thought I knew her

[SimonSays]

It takes a long time to know someone. If you look at how much time you actually spend with the people you know, it isn't really very much when you think about it. And we take that experience and call it knowing them.

My wife was also my friend, and I thought I knew her really well. But I’ve been wondering if the road to knowing anyone is interfered with by being sexually active from the very beginning.

Unless I know who I am first how can you really know me?

Unless I know who I am first how can I really know you?

How can I know you without experiencing myself with you for a long period of time?

How can I know how I really feel about you if sex becomes a big part of our life from the beginning?

The urge to make things sexual was always strong once I felt I was involved, and it was easy to go there because it felt so intimate and connecting to do so. But how much did that interfere with being able to really know her?

For me, sex has become almost meaningless compared to having a close spiritual/emotional relationship. And yet in the beginning, it feels so important. And yet the desire for it diminishes really quickly once it is something that can be had with regularity, and I see how much it was fuelling the very feeling of connection rather than coming out of it.

Once I understood that, I realised I didn't know her like I thought I did, and with the desire for sex no longer playing its part, who she was, and who I was around her, was not who I thought we were.

 

[Tom]

I wouldn't read into it too much. Sex is a natural function. Why not share it with someone you care about and who cares about you. Not much different than going sailing together.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Beautifully written, there is a feeling of peace in your words

You seem to focus on the sexual part, like all the others parts were static and not changing. My wife and me are very different from those who fall in love years ago, after those years I have a better idea of who she was and who I was, many doubs of who she is and who I am, and no idea of who she will be and who I will be.

The same goes for my daugther. I just hope to do it well for the three of us.

 

[SimonSays]

Beautifully written, there is a feeling of peace in your words

Thank you.

You seem to focus on the sexual part, like all the others parts were static and not changing.

Yes...it seems to be important. Ever since I can remember being aware of sexuality, there was a desire to experience it. This desire was there long before I was ever able to. As a result I see how much it interfered with being able to really know the person I was involved with when I did. I see why this desire was so strong, but that's a much longer post.

Wanting sex, and then eventually having it, changed things for me in a way I wasn't expecting. I thought I wanted to be involved with the girl, but the reality was, I really wanted what she had to offer. I fooled myself, created a state of denial about my true motives, because having sex outside of a loving relationship always felt wrong, without meaning, and still does.

Having to be in a relationship in order to feel sexually satisfied created a false persona...I would really feel like I was interested in having a relationship with her, even feeling like I was in love with her, when the truth was, it was not like that at all. I wasn't very conscious of this back then but I am now. Why I felt I had to be in a relationship would take another longer post; I also carried guilt about it, which probably represented the false state I was in. I simply couldn't trust my feelings because they always seemed to contain this underlying desire for sexual fulfilment which would reveal itself at some point.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

I fooled myself, created a state of denial about my true motives...

As far as I know there are no true motives for non logical actions. If we are playing chess, I can ask you "Why did you moved that piece" and you may explain your strategy to me so I can see the logic behind.

Most of our lives are not like that. They are more like I eat pizza because I want pizza, and if you ask me my true motives, I will create a justification that sounds like true motives. Lets explore this on the topic you are focusing: Relations.

Atrapa Almas: Why are you in love with your girl?
Simulated SimonSays: Well partially because of sex.
AA: Ok, remove sex of the equation. Why are you in love with your girl?
SSS: Well, partially because she cooks for me.
AA: Ok, remove cooking of the equation. Why are you in love with your girl?
SSS: Well, she respects me...
AA: Now remove that from the equation. Why are you in love?
SSS: mmmm... she...

We could try to remove Sex to search for the "true motives" but then there will be something you was getting from your relation. Remove that and you still get things that should be removed to find "true motives". When you are done removing all interests, all good things, all of what you love in the search of that "true motive" that has nothing to do with interests.... yes... there will be nothing left to love and you would get to a point where you would no longer love that person.

And the same goes for her about you. The same goes for everyone.

The general mechanic of love is something like this:

• Phase 1: Sex and attraction. Main menace, no loger being cool.
• Phase 2: Common interests in the form of raising children, mortage, cut expenses, etc. Main menace, becoming rich or one person becoming a load.
• Phase 3: Self care and company. Main menace, lack of respect and communication.

Its nice that you are focusin in the tree of sex, just remember you are in a forest. Sometimes our hiperfocus, black and white thinking makes us to forget the forest.

Hugs.

 

[Wolfnox]

Thank you.

Yes...it seems to be important. Ever since I can remember being aware of sexuality, there was a desire to experience it. This desire was there long before I was ever able to. As a result I see how much it interfered with being able to really know the person I was involved with when I did. I see why this desire was so strong, but that's a much longer post.

Wanting sex, and then eventually having it, changed things for me in a way I wasn't expecting. I thought I wanted to be involved with the girl, but the reality was, I really wanted what she had to offer. I fooled myself, created a state of denial about my true motives, because having sex outside of a loving relationship always felt wrong, without meaning, and still does.

Having to be in a relationship in order to feel sexually satisfied created a false persona...I would really feel like I was interested in having a relationship with her, even feeling like I was in love with her, when the truth was, it was not like that at all. I wasn't very conscious of this back then but I am now. Why I felt I had to be in a relationship would take another longer post; I also carried guilt about it, which probably represented the false state I was in. I simply couldn't trust my feelings because they always seemed to contain this underlying desire for sexual fulfilment which would reveal itself at some point.

Well said. I am in your state of mind right now. Not certain if I desire a woman solely for what her body can provide mine. It's about the only thing attracting me to any kind of relationship thinking. Like the person themselves doesn't matter. I don't like the thought. I do want connection with them without body needs in mind first. But, feel unable to trust my feelings or willingness to commit. Kinda broken on this subject. I could probably live out my life without it. Truth be told. But, do wonder about the experience.

 

[Luca]

I could go the rest of my life without having any type of sexual intimacy ever again, and I'd be happy.
What I really need is companionship, and a partner who is emotionally available and can provide a stable relationship.

 

[SimonSays]

We could try to remove Sex to search for the "true motives" but then there will be something you was getting from your relation. Remove that and you still get things that should be removed to find "true motives". When you are done removing all interests, all good things, all of what you love in the search of that "true motive" that has nothing to do with interests.... yes... there will be nothing left to love and you would get to a point where you would no longer love that person.

It is a good point, and it may be that sex is just at the top of the list. Most people have friends, but not all people see their girlfriend/partner as their best friend. They may be a really good person; kind and loving. A good reason for being with them. My first wife was that, and a wonderful mother to our daughter, and it was having a child that was the reason we were together in the first place.

At that time, before we knew each other, I was feeling like I wanted to be a dad, and I knew that at the base of sexuality was procreation. So I wondered if I could be with someone, and conceive a child, without making the focus on our relationship first. I would need to love her and be physically attracted to her, but that wasn't very hard for me as I'd always found it easy to be attracted to different kinds of women for different reasons.

It felt like the act of making love, for the first time, should be about conceiving a child and not just about our pleasure and union. Almost like how it might be if we were both virgins and on our wedding night we had sex for the first time. And that's what happened. Nine months later our daughter was born.

For a moment, it seemed like having now done it this way, we should continue just being companions, and put all our focus into being parents and not continuing to have sex while making sure no more children would come. And in fact she suggested it. But I dismissed it, because I was in love with her, and now we were together, sex was the icing on the cake. But something was wrong. Even though I thought I'd acted under the highest ideal, underneath the desire to do this, for what I thought were the right reasons, was a hidden desire to have sex. It took me quite a while to discover it. And just like the idea I mentioned of having to be in a relationship first in order to be sexual, so conceiving a child had taken that to a whole other level.

Being a dad was life changing for me in many ways, but being a husband and partner was incredibly difficult. Sex had once again interfered with compatibility/companionability. It has taken me a long time to work through this.

Well said. I am in your state of mind right now. Not certain if I desire a woman solely for what her body can provide mine. It's about the only thing attracting me to any kind of relationship thinking. Like the person themselves doesn't matter. I don't like the thought. I do want connection with them without body needs in mind first. But, feel unable to trust my feelings or willingness to commit. Kinda broken on this subject. I could probably live out my life without it. Truth be told. But, do wonder about the experience.

You are in your late 20s, and there is plenty of experience still to come. Before my first wife I'd had other relationships where sex played a huge part, if not the main reason for being in them. All ended uncomfortably. There were painful times, and the need for self reflection. I believe that journey was essential. And even though I would learn certain things about myself as I went, I still couldn't help jumping into the deep end whenever I had the opportunity. Even though things ended in tears, the experiences taught me something invaluable about myself.

I realised that it's essential for me not to be sexually involved with someone that I don't know very well first.

What I really need is companionship, and a partner who is emotionally available and can provide a stable relationship.

Yes. Companionship may be the key. I have tried it. I lived with someone where there was no physical contact, so there were no complications from sexual tension to interfere. In my case, there was no sexual attraction which made it much easier to do this. Unfortunately from her side, there was attraction towards me, which made it more difficult as time went on. But in theory, just caring about each other and looking after each other without expecting more, and without looking for it in others either, felt a lot better.

In my case, when I met the woman who would become my second wife, it made it much easier to be with her, because there was nothing that had to be broken; there was no sense of cheating or having an affair, which perhaps could only happen without the sexual component being present. No sense of the feeling of commitment that was present in my previous relationships that were sexual.

 

[SusanLR]

I don't think we can ever really know others that we are involved with.
There always seems to be things kept hidden from our past.
Things we feel if the other should know about would interfere with the present emotions.
We are a sum total of our pasts and we keep growing and adding to that total as each day goes by.

It does seem true that sex is at the core of these things we might not want the other to know
only because sex creates the procreation of the physical body that again makes the
desire for sex and pleasure from other bodies we may be attracted to.
Thoughts of things like lust for someone we find somehow physically attractive.
How we've lived our lives using the physical body to fulfill us during life.
Things we might feel guilty or ashamed of and not want our partner to know about.

We fear if all the truth be told, they might not like us as a person at all.
So everyone seems to hold a little back to keep the good feeling going that we
find from being with another.
Things may start being shared and accepted after being with them for a long time
as time makes us more comfortable to be open with them. (or not.)
But, I think there are always things we don't want to be known and that creates discomfort.

Then there are the worries of the future. Of course we can't hold someone if they want to
leave, no matter how much it hurts to lose them.
Again these worries of future changes that could be a turn off revolves around the body physical.
Things like will they still love me when my looks grow old, when I am not physically able to
participate as they might want should I become ill and they don't.
No one wants a burden, right?

If we weren't so wrapped up in the body and could be neutral, ethereal, could we be happy
with nothing more than the emotion of a caring love that would make us feel complete with
a partner?
It would just be a "Knowing." Union of consciousness and love without the liability of the body.
Of course we all have bodies currently and few can live in spirit without the genetic make up
of the body ruling.

 

[SimonSays]

I don't know if it's possible to be completely open with someone. Whether there is conscious intention to hide things or just keep some things private, which we are all entitled to do, even in relationships, or past stuff just doesn't come up, or it’s not relevant.

We've made mistakes, and not feeling the need to talk about them doesn't mean that we’re hiding anything. But even if I'm being completely open and honest, which is always my intention, many things just won't get said. I don't know that it is necessary to know someone’s complete past in order to feel like I know them.

I think it's more a question of trust. I think trust is one of, if not the most important factor in a relationship. If it is ever lost it's very difficult to get back.

I do have the feeling that it isn't really possible to know someone. I become used to the way someone is and accept them. If I love somebody I also have to love their shadow. I have found that being able to talk about things that are hard to talk about, from the past, reveals how unconditional they are with me; that they're not judging who I used to be and making that a problem with how I am.

I am focussing on the sexual side of things because in my experience it is sex and the desire for it which is such a powerful feeling, especially for men, who are the givers of the seed. It often interferes with the image a man puts across to a prospective partner because there is an underlying want or desire to satisfy the feeling of attraction which wants to be made physical, which is just, in part, nature’s drive for procreation, and without wanting to do it, we would not be here.

So I understand why it has been powerful in me, as a man, and yet at the same time I know I can rise above it. Maybe it helps having had a child. Maybe it's harder if one hasn’t. Passing on the genes is something many feel they have to do, but there are many who never settle or commit and simply enjoy the challenge of experiencing someone new, which is essentially doing the same thing, just in different circumstances with different people who have come into their sexuality in different ways, especially if they've been brought up in certain religions.

We have found ways to prevent conception and have become people who can take advantage of the feeling of the experience without having to always bring another human being into the world. There may be a price for having the freedom to experience the pleasure without the responsibility. Emotional attachment comes from it, and the experience of falling in love is something I've often thought about. What does it mean to fall? Where are we before we fall and where did we end up after we fell? It seems important to understand that.

So I liked the point @SusanLR made, and it definitely opened things up.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Sex is also tricky for me. Like there is a greased slope that goes down and down to a hidden beast. Or not so hidden.

Its simmilar to hunger, so I will use hunger as an example to keep the thread ok for young people.

So today I am hungry and just want to eat, so I can search in the trash for food that is still ok. After a week doing so, that way of satisfying my hunger doesnt feel good enougth. I may start buying food at the market and doing some basic dishes at home. But after doing so for a week, I get used to that again and I start going to a restaurant were the food is way better. But after eating every day at those basic restaurants I want more again, and I go to luxury restaurants... So there is no end. Every "improvement" put the level higher so it slaves me to want more, and more, and more.

I try to be very aware of those tricky needs that cant be trully satisfied and will lead me to wanting more. Like drugs. Money, power, sex, hunger...

Sex is specially tricky since we want to use the body of others to satisfy our needs. Its not like buying a bigger car or house, those bodies we want to use have people attached to them.

I have choose for myself the minimalist way, I take care of my basic needs in basic ways that I dont allow to grow.

So yes, its tricky. I think I will invest in the first robotics company that solves this issue. I bet that it will be a Japanesse one.

 

[Wolfnox]

This brings up a question. If you like the girl and found out about her dark secrets. Should you look past them? Assuming it isn't murder or something criminal.

 

[SimonSays]

I have choose for myself the minimalist way, I take care of my basic needs in basic ways that I dont allow to grow.

I am the same now.

I think I will invest in the first robotics company that solves this issue. I bet that it will be a Japanese one.

Lol. Or China, for mass production.

I think we are far from the idea of a human like android, AI, as a real companion, but there are many lifelike dolls already available that some really get quite attached to. I don't think I could do any of that.

What the hunger analogy describes is the ego's need for more. It always wants more, and just like a drug dependant quickly loses the feeling they used to get from what they take, so the ego is no longer satisfied with what it gets. Some people do get quite creative when attempting to spice up things. Again for me...it would not work, because enhancing the ego is not what I want.

I've been nonsexual for 3 years now, and rarely think about it. As a bloke, and for the health of the prostate, there is a need to release now and again, but it doesn't have to be a sexual thing. What is interesting in my case, is that if I don't do this I will eventually have a nocturnal emission. I've had these ever since I was young, and if they occur, which is rare, the feeling is far more intense than anything I've ever felt in real life.

This brings up a question. If you like the girl and found out about her dark secrets. Should you look past them? Assuming it isn't murder or something criminal.

It depends on how it makes you feel. Dark secrets is quite a loaded idea, but what could possibly be so dark and so secret that she couldn't be accepted for who she is? We do things, try things, and then realise it is not for us. If I was ashamed, well, that's something I'd need to look at.

 

[Callistemon]

I'm tired and need to go to la-la-land, so can't write much although it's a really interesting topic. In my mid-30s I decided I didn't want sexuality interfering anymore with my partner choices by distorting stuff, as it is apt to do for reasons of biological hoodwinking for reproduction and for psychological reasons if you grew up in a dysfunctional family of origin. It didn't lead to good partner choices for me. I decided instead to treat dating like a job application and to do that online, not in face-to-face, so that I could take appearances and pheromones out of the equation and go by primary values first and foremost, as well as hobbies and interests.

It was an excellent site asking people tons of questions on values, ideals, what they wanted out of relationships, what they wanted to give, if they wanted children, how they thought children should be raised, plus hobbies and interests etc, and I weeded out so much stuff this way, so quickly. You then PMd your most interesting people and that weeded out more, phoned the remaining ones and that weeded out more. One person got through all this with flying colours and vice versa for him. We met up, went hiking together, made meals, talked, watched films, became great friends, and wondered if we'd become attracted that way, but I was determined to really get to know him well before anything like that was going to be encouraged and acted on. Sounds unorthodox - perhaps just old-fashioned - but it was fabulous to do it that way and resulted in a longterm relationship based firmly on friendship, common values and compatibility (and don't you believe that the sex has to be worse that way, if anything it was much better than when doing this conventionally) - 15 years and counting.

 

[SimonSays]

but I was determined to really get to know him well before anything like that was going to be encouraged and acted on. Sounds unorthodox - perhaps just old-fashioned -

Sounds perfect to me. I suppose in theory all dating sites are meant to make it easier to match compatibility as long as the right questions are asked and answered. I've never used one, but what you describe sounds more like something that has the best chance to work. You are the proof of that although I suspect not all use it as efficiently as you did.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

I also met my wife online, in a forum.

 

[Callistemon]

Sounds perfect to me. I suppose in theory all dating sites are meant to make it easier to match compatibility as long as the right questions are asked and answered. I've never used one, but what you describe sounds more like something that has the best chance to work. You are the proof of that although I suspect not all use it as efficiently as you did.

Maybe not all were as motivated by some bad prior experiences and high ideals.

The long version of all of that is here by the way - sat down and wrote about that specifically once. Dating, the whole shemozzle. Done in fine detail and longform with wry side observations and a nice photograph.

...but of course we are still working on assorted human frailties like the meltdown stuff, although we are making much better progress since I joined this community.

 

[Wolfnox]

Been considering a dating site. Once somethings work out. Looking for conversation that might lead somewhere over time.

 

[SusanLR]

Emotional attachment comes from it, and the experience of falling in love is something I've often thought about. What does it mean to fall? Where are we before we fall and where did we end up after we fell? It seems important to understand that

What if one could experience emotional attachment and the falling in love emotions without it
creating a stirring in the physical body?

I understand, due to the fact that is just the way our human genome was created to ensure
procreation, that very few might be able to accomplish this.
There are a minority, I suppose, that do feel this way though. Self included.
So how can this be? Is there a missing link in the gene that can allow the oneness attachment
of what people call falling in love, yet not be stirred with the physical longing for sex?
Or as many have stated, getting the cart before the horse here, longing for the pleasure of
union that was made to create procreation comes first and continues without attachment.
The hunger that is never really satiated.

Falling in love can be a wonderful emotional, internal feeling of spirit, heart chakra union.
Yet, for those few, it creates no interference from the need for union of physical that really
was made for other reasons. Procreation and bodily waste disposal.
Odd to me. But, one cannot understand what one does not experience really.
It can be explained, but, it becomes like the big toe's connected to the foot bones, the foot
bones are connected to the heel bone, the heel bone's connected to the leg bone, etc.

Same can be said for what is falling in love. If you haven't truly experienced it you don't
really know.
I can say it is an internal feeling of connection, union, wholeness, and a type of high that is
indescribable. Oxytocin, endorphines, dopamine all at once maybe.
Why do we feel this for a certain person and not others?
There in lies a complexity.
It's more like an energy that combines perhaps because the energy vibes match.

Imagine being wrapped in a soft blanket in the arms of someone with whom you share
this energy combination. It IS almost like the spiritual experience that some have
described in NDE experiences. I've never heard anyone describe that overwhelming
peace and connectedness creating a stirring between the loins.
I know this is near impossible for those in the physical body on this plane to understand.
So I'll just leave it at that.

Trust? That's another issue and comes from the mental. It is difficult
without much empathy and telepathy would a good ability to have!

 

[SimonSays]

What if one could experience emotional attachment and the falling in love emotions without it
creating a stirring in the physical body?

As a heterosexual male, I have loved a few men, without any physical stirrings, as there's never any physical attraction. In many ways it is much easier to love a brother as there's never any sexual tension.

I have loved women without it becoming physical...not that it was always out of the question in some cases, but the 'falling' part simply wasn't present. It may be different for women, and may be different for other men, but the feeling of loving a woman I'm attracted to, and then have it consummated, creates a connection that is full of loving attachment. Not possession. But a sense of exclusivity. We are together now. A couple. Our sexual intimacy joins us as if we are married. I wouldn't need to actually marry in the institutional sense, as it feels like I already am. Committed. Faithful. For as long as we keep choosing to be together.

I have certainly felt myself 'falling', with all the same falling emotions, but it does not or is simply not appropriate for anything more to happen. As time goes on, because there are no thoughts or desires for there to be more, the feeling changes; the Oxytocin and other neurochemicals fade, and what remains feels more like a closeness, a friendship, or perhaps just a respect; a deeper, realer feeling that has no need of any physical component to exist. I think the potential for more may still remain on some level, but without thinking about it that way, there is nothing to stimulate further in love emotions with their associated chemicals. It becomes a genuine affection for someone without needing anything else. In fact anything else, even the thought of it, will remove the deeper more spiritual connection that develops.

I love this state. No sexual tension. It is beyond the physical. No desire. Nakedness would not be an issue, so perhaps it is more akin to being a naturist amongst friends and acquaintances where nobody is turned on or even really cares about seeing what is normally hidden.