I screwed up a few friendships, and need to understand better what went wrong? I think my autism caused me to do a few inappropriate things.

[MOPS]

Just something else that I left out in my original post is that when I talked with Mark, he told me that Tessa has likely been more direct with me, but Kate is very kind and often has trouble saying No to people, so she tries to soften it too much.

 

[Hypnalis]

@MOPS

You're still "walking it back" rather than addressing the problem.

It's your choice of course. But don't try to sell me on your behavior being justified due to external causes.

Unfortunately denial in things like this is functionally similar to the classic denial associated with addictive behaviors.
You can't be helped directly by other people. Step one is introspection & accepting that there is an issue to address.

 

[MOPS]

@MOPS

You're still "walking it back" rather than addressing the problem.

It's your choice of course. But don't try to sell me on your behavior being justified due to external causes.

Unfortunately denial in things like this is functionally similar to the classic denial associated with addictive behaviors.
You can't be helped directly by other people. Step one is introspection & accepting that there is an issue to address.

OK I understand! I won’t try to change someone’s answer if they say No or give me an answer I don’t like. Obviously we all find it difficult, but I agree it’s something we all need to make sure we respect.

 

[Crossbreed]

United States

The reason I asked is because the minutia of what you are asking about in the OP cannot be sorted out in a single thread. And many of us have not resolved these issues ourselves. We have just learned how not to be so hard on ourselves as we trial-&-error our way through them.

We can certainly commiserate with you here, but an autism-competent therapist can better help you sort these things out.

If you don't have one already, see
https://autlanders.blogspot.com/2019/07/finding-support-resources-in-usa.html

 

[Hypnalis]

@MOPS

You're still "walking it back" / "negotiating down". Step one is to accept that you have an issue.

BTW I'm not going to help you tune your message.
It's a waste of time for both of us.

I don't need more practice at this. And if you don't want to change, as far as I'm concerned it's a valid adult decision - I don't care one way or the other.

 

[Bolletje]

I did NOT cross any boundaries, because I never actually attended anything that I wasn't supposed to, but I definitely shook the boundaries or gave them the impression that I didn't like that boundary or want to respect it.

I think opinions may differ on that though. When they told you repeatedly that you were not welcome there and you kept trying to join anyway, that could be considered crossing boundaries.

 

[Bolletje]

To summarize my previous comment: “No” in itself can be a boundary. Trying to turn a no into a yes repeatedly is crossing that boundary. You don’t have to succeed to cross it.

 

[paloftoon]

It hurts to be alone, but there still needs to be consent.
Look elsewhere for it. Maybe try meetup.com for a meetup based on similar interest.

 

[MOPS]

I think opinions may differ on that though. When they told you repeatedly that you were not welcome there and you kept trying to join anyway, that could be considered crossing boundaries.

Yeah, Fair Enough!

 

[MOPS]

To summarize my previous comment: “No” in itself can be a boundary. Trying to turn a no into a yes repeatedly is crossing that boundary. You don’t have to succeed to cross it.

Fair Enough

 

[Boogs]

Seem part of the problem is that each of us, NT and ND alike, have our own boundaries, and no-one else can possibly know them until they get to know that person. So finding those boundaries is a must before acting on an impulse, rather than a carefully thought out action. And of course, that's a difficult task for anyone, though often far more so for someone in the spectrum, or indeed with other related conditions. It usually takes subtlety, experience and intuition. So those of us who find any of these areas difficult, have to try to find other ways round this.

But, this is tempered by the problem that this is a two way process, spectrum or not. And all the things that may have been mentioned here, as possible mistakes in your actions with your friends, are also incumbent on those same friends too! I can't judge this, because your own view of what's happened will only be your view, valid as anyone else's, but not the full story (just as with anyone else, they can only tell their story. Mark informs you about your friends, but that's not their story, it's part of his story). And this is why I previously said I think you need to make your own mind up, not go by someone else's. And doing this will usually give you strength, as it becomes easier the next time.

Just two other little things that jumped out at me from your first three posts...
One, is that there seems to be much going on within this complex community, to which you are unaware of, and your friends have not been forthcoming over, for whatever reason (some of them may not even realise this). I suspect you stand little chance of making sense of these under currents, and seem to be being treated as an outsider at some level.
The other, is only a small thing, but I found your way of labelling people with their age and gender, on introducing them, to be strange. Is there a particular reason this is important? Either to you, or your tale? Probably just a different culture to me, but it seemed unusual.

My guess is that you would benefit most from working on yourself with suitable help (from a strictly medical/care background, not a religious one) completely separate from this community, because this will help you think more clearly about yourself, than when you're in very emotive situations, and keeping confusing issues around these friends separate from learning about yourself. I would think that's difficult enough alone, without involving others whom already give you problems. I don't mean leaving them, I'm assuming you don't wish to leave this place, but just keeping the autism side of what you do, private to yourself - I did notice you seemed reluctant to tell your friends about this side of yourself, obviously if you felt able to that may be different, but maybe be careful of whom you make yourself vulnerable to by doing that, until you understand what's happening better.

 

[Hypnalis]

"the timeline doesn't support All-Rounder's interpretation" - if you could elaborate it would be helpful to understand what you're thinking specifically

@All-Rounder

That text you quoted was partly for you, partly for OP, and partly for other thread participants.

For you: I needed to signal that there is at least one other interpretation of OP's initial three posts, but as low-key (a term from visual art) as possible (for which the technique is described as "high key" in the musical sense Anyway it's in "dog-whistle register" for you.

I wrote that text because you had jumped to a "conspiracy" explanation without actual evidence. It's a possible explanation if you assume in advance that OP is blameless. But based on what?
That OP is the one telling the story, so OP must understand the entire context and the details? That happens only in fiction. I felt we needed more data

BTW - the logical error you made is a form of "Begging the Question"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
But clearly there's no case for criticizing you. You were polite. You might have been right. And if you were wrong, it still came from a good-hearted interpretation.

If you want to see it from my original perspective: perhaps look at the first three posts again, this time assuming that the people OP interacted with are all "NT-normal", and there's no "cult dynamic" going on.

For OP:
I needed to signal to OP that I didn't agree with your "cult-dynamic" interpretation, but in a way that didn't "raise the temperature" of the thread as a whole. If everyone else had agreed with you I'd have stopped reading the thread.

For other readers:
I needed to show that there are dissenting views, in case someone else interpreted OP's posts the same way as I did, but they didn't want to be first to present another interpretation. It's impossible to know if it had any effect, but there was no downside either.

 

[All-Rounder]

@All-Rounder

That text you quoted was partly for you, partly for OP, and partly for other thread participants.

For you: I needed to signal that there is at least one other interpretation of OP's initial three posts, but as low-key (a term from visual art) as possible (for which the technique is described as "high key" in the musical sense Anyway it's in "dog-whistle register" for you.

I wrote that text because you had jumped to a "conspiracy" explanation without actual evidence. It's a possible explanation if you assume in advance that OP is blameless. But based on what?
That OP is the one telling the story, so OP must understand the entire context and the details? That happens only in fiction. I felt we needed more data

BTW - the logical error you made is a form of "Begging the Question"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
But clearly there's no case for criticizing you. You were polite. You might have been right. And if you were wrong, it still came from a good-hearted interpretation.

If you want to see it from my original perspective: perhaps look at the first three posts again, this time assuming that the people OP interacted with are all "NT-normal", and there's no "cult dynamic" going on.

For OP:
I needed to signal to OP that I didn't agree with your "cult-dynamic" interpretation, but in a way that didn't "raise the temperature" of the thread as a whole. If everyone else had agreed with you I'd have stopped reading the thread.

For other readers:
I needed to show that there are dissenting views, in case someone else interpreted OP's posts the same way as I did, but they didn't want to be first to present another interpretation. It's impossible to know if it had any effect, but there was no downside either.

What reason would I have to mention something everyone else would be eager to mention, to speak the obvious?

Some people on the spectrum need to keep wary of others who might butt into their friendships and particularly closed and secretive religious cults of the youth and their leaders who can make your friends message you anything. Belief and power go hand in hand to facilitate blind obedience. I think we all deserve friends who would not do anything to the friendship based on their other loyalties.

if you assume in advance that OP is blameless - I did not assume anything, it's obvious to me he's doing soul searching so I find no need to put the OP down for what he already realizes or assume he doesn't realize it or that the others wouldn't bother him about it. My opinion tends to be different from the mainstream also, as I do not see as many flaws in human normal errors, humans are fallible on a daily basis and his flaws are not in the category I view as worth mentioning. I trust him as a person from what he has said, I might be wrong but I do and I think I could work with what he's offered, so I expect others to as well

You mentioned you did not read the entire posts, yet you were eager to mention you disagree with my pov, I assume you did by now. I also assume we are very different and expect to disagree. I don't expect anyone to disagree with me personally, but rather with my points, so I was set off by the lack of description in that direction and limited personal disagreement mention. If you look at it from that perspective it can look personal, however I didn't think you would do that sort of thing so I didn't jump the gun, you seemed to be extra cautious you even mention leaving the thread supposedly to avoid anything or to point that you aren't looking for a fight. But I would encourage you to specify what you disagree with, if you're afraid/cautious to do it. At least with me. I found it's quite an unusual style, though you might have reasons to do it.

 

[Rogue Princess]

Post exceeds attention span

Autism leads to me being miss innapropriate too.

 

[Hypnalis]

@All-Rounder

My interest in this thread was related to the OP's boundary-violating behavior.
The only "loose end" at the beginning was that my analysis was (and still is) diametrically opposite to yours.

This (my text from an early post in the thread)
"the timeline doesn't support All-Rounder's interpretation"
was (in part) to tell you I didn't agree with your analysis, and that you shouldn't expect me to change my mind.

Neither of us can gain anything by discussing our analyses further.

FWIW, OP doesn't write like an Aspie. A "mainstream" Aspie writing that story would realize they made mistakes, and feel regret, remorse, and possibly even shame. IMO OP's behavior )(as they describe it) is due to something else that's "out of scope" for this forum.

 

[All-Rounder]

was (in part) to tell you I didn't agree with your analysis, and that you shouldn't expect me to change my mind.

I was at that point not talking to you, or expecting anything from you. I didn't even read what you wrote or focus on your posts since you mentioned me until much later when I actually replied to you.

I was focusing strictly on replying to OP, even if there are multiple posts because I do mention ideas before I forget them. There was nothing against you personally, nor your view.



<<This (my text from an early post in the thread)
"the timeline doesn't support All-Rounder's interpretation"
was (in part) to tell you I didn't agree with your analysis, and that you shouldn't expect me to change my mind.>>


I don't understand the need for such a mention. It's something everyone should know and respect.

 

[All-Rounder]

@All-Rounder
diametrically opposite to yours.

I have views diametrically opposite to my own views as well. That's never a problem.

I think it's a good thing. I've always stood for adding ideas.

 

[All-Rounder]

<<A "mainstream" Aspie writing that story would realize they made mistakes, and feel regret, remorse, and possibly even shame>>

His confusion and fear feelings of losing his friends due to whatever he didn't realize at the time or was obvious enough to him point to a different perspective to me. I think he regrets losing his friendships and wants to do better in the future.

 

[All-Rounder]

<<Neither of us can gain anything by discussing our analyses further.>>

I understand you're not in the mood to hear what I think or say what you think. That's okay.