If you had the chance to meet Hans Asperger, would you?

[Tom]

I didn't know much about him until reading this thread. He sounds like he was not only pioneering smart, but also a good guy and brave. So yes it would be a honor to meet him.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I saw this program some time ago and it's part of the reason I believe that Autistics only struggle in society, according to the Triad of Impairments, because it's society that thinks and acts in rigid fashion; the rigid thinking and behavior of autistics is as observed by NT's, but may, in fact, be a defence against a confusing world.
I see this more plainly with people with AS/HFA, simply because we can communicate our thoughts and feelings so much more clearly. I will, though, admit to limited experience with 'my own kind'.
I wonder.. if education, from parenting to schools to work environments, were flexible enough to encompass nontypical learning styles, would more low-functioning autistics be productive members of society?
I personally have built and run my own business for 20 years.. I've proven I'm capable of being successful and productive, yet I still struggle to learn unless instruction is clearly explained and logical.
Maybe this comes down to societies predilection toward sweeping its problems under the carpet, rather than actually dealing with them?

I really think there's a lot of truth to this perspective. Each of my kids shows at least a little aspieness in them, although I'm not sure yet if any of them is diagnosable. And yet each of them is very well adjusted within our family unit because DH and I create an environment of freedom and acceptance and value for uniqueness.

Each child is treated as an individual and we connect with them, discipline them, train them, educate them, in ways that tend to work best for that child. Although each of them is very different (2 girls, 2 boys, with one girl more on the aspie side and one is a girly-girl, and with one boy being all-boy while the other is very analytical and, well, geeky), they each value the others and adapt well to each other's personalities, as well as to people on the "outside".

They are very capable people and well adapted to life in general...but I'm not so sure they would be doing nearly as well had they been in public school all this time. We've homeschooled them 100% so far. Just last week we started with a homeschool co-op so they'll get some classroom experience (hoping that will help with the college transition one day) and more chances to make friends their own ages. But all of those families are also homeschoolers with very similar, open approaches to schooling and raising kids.

 

[Rob]

No, Aaron, there is no conversation killer here. Many threads on this forum I notice have had a long period of inactivity until someone spots that thread as especially interesting to them personally. But this thread is too important to be treated like the off-topic threads. I will keep in touch as often as I can under the circumstances I am in right now.

My circumstances are these: I am very tired from taking care of my diabetic, stroke- and dementia-affected mother and having to deal with the conditions of my 87-year old father, who has been hospitalized with pneumonia.

The hospital here in Golden did not make a proper diagnosis because of lack of available equipment. Now I just found out that he survived a heart attack over a week ago and we never noticed. He has fluid in his lungs. He will be transported from Cranbrook BC to Kelowna BC tomorrow, with my sister keeping me informed over the phone. I wish I could hold a more continual conversation on this topic but the situation I am facing is taking a lot of energy away from me, including the mental "get up and go" to think deeply on the subject of Asperger's.


I could spend a lot of time in deep thought but at this point, I do not want to take on more than I can handle mentally. I am under stress now and I have almost gone into shutdown yesterday as my phone line was OUT OF SERVICE FOR THREE HOURS. In spite of this I had to go shopping with my with my 80-year old mom whose moods can change from depressed, almost catatonic to happy, enthusiastic and energetic at the most unexpected moments.

After shopping I went to the Chevron store to use their phone to help me get our phone line back. I had to spend nearly an hour waiting and listening there to the Telus clerk to finally give me her instructions. By the way, I fought through my near shutdown and the instructions worked!!!

I am also part of a Christian faith group where we all submit emails and Bible studies regularly. The amount of reading here is quite substantial too. Furthermore, Betty-Ann Garreck of Autism Kamloops sends me articles and videos to watch - lately a video on essential oils and their positive results treating children with ADHD and Autism. Some of her great material I had sent to the Aspies Central Forum.

Despite my full plate I will keep in touch.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

I'm not here to further stress you in your travails and tribulations, Rob! That would never be my intention.

I fear that I have come to dread the worst in raising that particular question of mine, from prior experience on Aspie forums. But I still think that it is important.

 

[Keith]

Sure I'd like to meet him. I'd like to know what he observed about the condition that made him fascinated with the subject, ask if he knew of any benefits to having it, and because he called us his little geniuses.

 

[Rob]

Actually, my question is tremendously unpopular. As the old saying goes: "The dancer blames the floor" sometimes more justifiably than others. Which brings us to Asperger's as a condition rather than a pathology, and Aspies as the blameless innocent victims of a flawed evil and profoundly corrupt society. But is that a scientific hypothesis? And what would be the experiment with conditions of refutation?

Again: It has long been observed how gifted students amongst their own true gifted peers, suddenly and mysteriously no longer require the great blessed boon of socialization! But is such the case for Aspies? No, alas it is not. Thus, it appears that there is a detriment inherent to Asperger's, and not just the social problem of bullying which is, after all, the abuse and exploitation of the disorganized by the well organized. Bullies are as thick as thieves, but Aspies cannot or will not organized even with one another, unlike, for example, the manic depressives who have such clout! Giftedness offers clues to an improved paradigm of social integration. Asperger's apparently does not. Disappointing, as I had entertained interest in and hopes for what has been called: Aspie candor. But I have yet to witness much of that personally, but more often quite the opposite: denial and hypersensitivity.

Know more at: FoolQuest.com

Warning: The site may come down pursuant to a terms of service warning (censorship) that I am still trying to resolve. If that actually happens, I am all set to change webhosts and be back up again as quickly as possible.

Your FoolQuest article is very informative and stimulating. I went through it yesterday and came up with some striking conclusions after reading the full article.

I believe a large cross-section of the corporate world in the mass-media and the marketplace has built an insidious and ubiquitous heteronomy that has managed to deprive many of us of our autonomy. Individuals have basically surrendered their autonomy to feel "popular" in the general world. Many Aspies, on the other hand, have a strong sense of autonomy and feel they want to think for themselves. I believe this is a major factor in many Aspies feeling marginalized. The large distance between Aspie locations, a lack of willingness of many Aspies to admit their condition (so they blend in with the NT world in employment, etc.), and a lack of local Aspie support groups all conspire to make Aspies less likely to organize themselves.
I also believe some Aspies are too autonomous and feel they have to live "cut off" from the world to feel comfortable - such is their feeling of social anxiety. But this can be a huge obstacle to success and often leads to frustration and loneliness as unwelcome consequences. Sometimes a vicious cycle then develops - feeling wronged by the world around them, feeling more alienated, and feeling an even greater need to be "autonomous" but this "autonomy" is not the true article, it is not autonomy but social antipathy. Such antipathy can then separate Aspies themselves and cause further separation.

Anyway that's my personal opinion on the important question you raised. Thank you for your stimulating perspectives.

 

[Aaron Agassi]

Do you really believe that the causes of Aspie disorganization are so entirely strategic and circumstantial rather than howsoever pathological and inherent to the condition?

 

[Rob]

Do you really believe that the causes of Aspie disorganization are so entirely strategic and circumstantial rather than howsoever pathological and inherent to the condition?

Thanks for your reply!

No, I do not. Without a doubt, pathology and neurobiological causes are inherent to the condition. I think that different degrees of co-morbidity exist in each Aspie. For myself, I have co-morbid depression and social anxiety, as well as learning disabilities. Which brings to mind (!) another point - I have a poor listening memory and impaired executive function. My messy room is a prime example. In addition, complex problem solving causes me intense exasperation! Organization of my personal space is a challenge. Tony Attwood in his book, The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome, states the following on page 235:

"Impaired executive function can include a difficulty considering ALTERNATIVE PROBLEM-SOLVING strategies. Harold Stone, a man with Asperger's Syndrome, explained to me that the thinking of children and adults with Asperger's Syndrome can be represented by a train on a singular track. If it is the right track, the child will quickly arrive at the destination, the solution to the problem. However, I have observed that children with Asperger's Syndrome can be the last to know if they are on the wrong track, or to recognize that there may be other tracks to the destination. Thus, there may be a problem with flexible thinking, one of the characteristics of impaired executive function. Typical (NT) children and adults are able to react quickly to feedback and are prepared to change strategies or direction. Their vehicle of thought is not a train but a four-wheel drive vehicle that easily changes direction and is able to go 'off-road'."

It took me four months plus to learn how to do my cashiering job at work, where I often forgot important details or regressed into entrenched mindsets that were counterproductive to my training. Thankfully my employer had incredible patience. Now he knows I am on the autism spectrum, and he knows I need less demanding tasks and fewer hours.

Even driving a vehicle in a small town can be a challenge where there is heavier traffic and more vehicles are coming at you in all directions going through the narrow downtown route.

However, the general trend among Aspies is high or above-average intelligence. The result is strong opinions and beliefs about our personal and sometimes shared values. Another result of this is that some Aspies have succeeded pursuing their special interests ( like technology or science) and have made a good living doing so.
Perhaps they had help from competent assistants regarding any executive deficits? If they did, they thus already have a good social network with caring, competent professionals and laypersons.

But many other Aspies could not capitalize on their special interests because of impaired executive function. As for me, this has been my case. During a long, difficult, lonely process, I had been very tempted to fall into the social antipathy category but I found this was too dark an option for me. Despite having to surrender my "autonomy" for some "heteronomy" I could see that in this specific case, some "heteronomy" was a risk I had to take. The consequences of social antipathy? Unthinkable.

It is good news that after my school of hard knocks, things have stabilized for me and worked out so I can work part-time and collect disability benefits. It was a long hard road that paid off. My $10,000 student loan has been paid off long ago. My parents need my help as they are both elderly and disabled.

It is good news for us Aspies especially, to feel wanted and needed by those who are closest to us. And I made some good friends during that long process!

 

[DogwoodTree]

One thing I can't quite seem to reconcile in my head. AS often includes impaired executive function. But AS can also inherently include high SQ (systemizing quotient). The description you quoted from Atwood's book seems contradictory to characteristics of someone with high SQ. In fact, one of my strengths is being able to think outside the box to come up with other ways to approach a problem. And when that doesn't work, I think of something else. If anything, in my experience anyway, I've been less confined to a lock-step problem-solving box than the NTs around me. What are your thoughts?

 

[Rob]

One thing I can't quite seem to reconcile in my head. AS often includes impaired executive function. But AS can also inherently include high SQ (systemizing quotient). The description you quoted from Atwood's book seems contradictory to characteristics of someone with high SQ. In fact, one of my strengths is being able to think outside the box to come up with other ways to approach a problem. And when that doesn't work, I think of something else. If anything, in my experience anyway, I've been less confined to a lock-step problem-solving box than the NTs around me. What are your thoughts?

Interesting, DogwoodTree. Other aspects of executive functioning include multitasking and remembering verbal instructions. Maybe it depends on one's specific neurology?

 

[DogwoodTree]

Interesting, DogwoodTree. Other aspects of executive functioning include multitasking and remembering verbal instructions. Maybe it depends on one's specific neurology?

I suppose that's the only explanation we can assume at this point--just not enough information available.

Personally, I'm pretty good at multitasking IF I've chosen the tasks I'm doing so that they're well-balanced in my mind. I'm also good at remembering verbal instructions, but mostly because I "convert" the auditory input to visual data (I see the words scrolling in my head), and then I can remember those visual instructions.

But then, I have a very high SQ, even for an aspie. Maybe the problem is that a lower SQ in an aspie reveals greater executive function issues than the same SQ would reveal in an NT?

I do have areas of poor executive functioning, though. The less I can predict what I have to do next, the harder it is for me to stay focused and do what needs to be done. I have to ride the waves of my mental energy in order to do my work, and if I'm stressed or overwhelmed in the wrong kinds of ways, I'm barely functional.

 

[Rob]

How about Bob Aydeeaichdee?

And, don't forget P. Deedie Noss!

 

[Spiller]

"Impaired executive function can include a difficulty considering ALTERNATIVE PROBLEM-SOLVING strategies. Harold Stone, a man with Asperger's Syndrome, explained to me that the thinking of children and adults with Asperger's Syndrome can be represented by a train on a singular track. If it is the right track, the child will quickly arrive at the destination, the solution to the problem. However, I have observed that children with Asperger's Syndrome can be the last to know if they are on the wrong track, or to recognize that there may be other tracks to the destination. Thus, there may be a problem with flexible thinking, one of the characteristics of impaired executive function. Typical (NT) children and adults are able to react quickly to feedback and are prepared to change strategies or direction. Their vehicle of thought is not a train but a four-wheel drive vehicle that easily changes direction and is able to go 'off-road'."

I get you here and it's a problem I sometimes come up against myself, but generally, I find I'm able to consider multiple theories or tracks simultaneously.. further incoming data reduces the number of tracks, leaving me with fewer options for a solution, until I arrive at a terminus.. Also, if it proves to be the wrong termimus, I can backtrack and follow another approach.
Ok, DogwoodTree, I've just done the test and:

My EQ score is 26; Baron-Cohen suggests that this means I have a lower than average ability for understanding how other people feel and responding appropriately. My Systemizing Quotient is 47. Suggests that this means I have an average ability for analysing and exploring a system.

Now, in reality, I appear to impress people with how much I can 'pick up' on them emotionally, yet the scores suggest differently.. and I really mean, I get things about people they weren't aware, by the surprise on their faces, that they were giving out!
I submit, however, that, as always with such tests, some of the questions are ambigous to us literally minded buggers .. and, as always, the question of lack of true understanding of the condition from an NT perspective comes into play.
I do feel and find, however, that I am far more of an emotive and empathetic individual than such results make out.
Please, love, don't ever take my comments as any kind of personal criticism, just that of the clinicial system generally .. Besides, I love taking these tests.. I'll eventually devise my own and some of the questions will involve ones involvement with SciFi escapeism, such as StarTrek and Dr. Who.. much overlooked and, in my view, important diagnostic criteria

 

[DogwoodTree]

I submit, however, that, as always with such tests, some of the questions are ambigous to us literally minded buggers .. and, as always, the question of lack of true understanding of the condition from an NT perspective comes into play.
I do feel and find, however, that I am far more of an emotive and empathetic individual than such results make out.
Please, love, don't ever take my comments as any kind of personal criticism, just that of the clinicial system generally .. Besides, I love taking these tests.. I'll eventually devise my own and some of the questions will involve ones involvement with SciFi escapeism, such as StarTrek and Dr. Who.. much overlooked and, in my view, important diagnostic criteria

Yes, I completely agree! Sometimes I feel like I have to "translate" the questions in order to figure out what they really meant...I'm definitely trying to answer honestly, but that requires the translation/interpretation first.

Looking forward to your aspie-created tests some day!

 

[Rob]

I get you here and it's a problem I sometimes come up against myself, but generally, I find I'm able to consider multiple theories or tracks simultaneously.. further incoming data reduces the number of tracks, leaving me with fewer options for a solution, until I arrive at a terminus.. Also, if it proves to be the wrong termimus, I can backtrack and follow another approach.
Ok, DogwoodTree, I've just done the test and:

My EQ score is 26; Baron-Cohen suggests that this means I have a lower than average ability for understanding how other people feel and responding appropriately. My Systemizing Quotient is 47. Suggests that this means I have an average ability for analysing and exploring a system.

Now, in reality, I appear to impress people with how much I can 'pick up' on them emotionally, yet the scores suggest differently.. and I really mean, I get things about people they weren't aware, by the surprise on their faces, that they were giving out!
I submit, however, that, as always with such tests, some of the questions are ambigous to us literally minded buggers .. and, as always, the question of lack of true understanding of the condition from an NT perspective comes into play.
I do feel and find, however, that I am far more of an emotive and empathetic individual than such results make out.
Please, love, don't ever take my comments as any kind of personal criticism, just that of the clinicial system generally .. Besides, I love taking these tests.. I'll eventually devise my own and some of the questions will involve ones involvement with SciFi escapeism, such as StarTrek and Dr. Who.. much overlooked and, in my view, important diagnostic criteria

Thanks Spiller! Yes, I have a lot of misgivings about the clinical system too. Better-worded questions are a huge benefit for us literally minded Aspies too, no doubt. I wish employers would give us clearer instructions too. I still remember when my employer told me, "There's cardboard in the Yukon. Could you empty it out and put it in the bin please?" After puzzling over what he meant it occurred to me...Aha! I figured out what he actually meant (ha, ha)!

I'm looking forward to your Aspie test. I cannot resist watching clips of Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory TV show - he is so much like many Aspies! When I saw the episode of him learning how to drive, I could not contain myself! This is what it was like for me to drive the first time too! But not quite that dangerously.

 

[Rob]

Hi Aaron - when did you receive a formal diagnosis of Asperger's? Mine was just around three years ago. A fast three years also!

Did you go through a lot of testing? I sure did.

 

[Madame Catfish]

Am I the only one who finds it slightly amusing that the decline of the Third Reich was assisted by a machine (The Bombe) that was designed and operated by an autistic (Turing) while the Reich was simultaneously trying to inter autistics due to their "mental inferiority"?

Kind of off topic, but you mentioning the camps made that pop into my mind.

 

[Suzanne]

Not sure if I would want to meet him, but if I had and could foresee the future, so actually, lets say he is STILL alive, because I do not believe in reading the future lol I would say that for all the hard work he achieved, how does he feel with the complete idiotic, stupid attitude of so called professionals, who deemed that aspergers no longer exist, as a condition, and yet, some professionals STILL diagnose ones with apsegers. Honestly, do you not think: Mr Aspergers, that they need help themselves?

I would then thank him for his dedication and helping me to realise that I am not quite the alien I used to think I was, even if nt's behaviours cause me to feel alien like still.

 

[AGXStarseed]

Not sure if I would want to meet him, but if I had and could foresee the future, so actually, lets say he is STILL alive, because I do not believe in reading the future lol I would say that for all the hard work he achieved, how does he feel with the complete idiotic, stupid attitude of so called professionals, who deemed that aspergers no longer exist, as a condition, and yet, some professionals STILL diagnose ones with apsegers. Honestly, do you not think: Mr Aspergers, that they need help themselves?

I would then thank him for his dedication and helping me to realise that I am not quite the alien I used to think I was, even if nt's behaviours cause me to feel alien like still.

Isn't it only in the DSM where Asperger's has been removed?
I think it's still in the World Health manual.

 

[yay_I_AM_ASD123]

YES, SURE THING.

I would have told him NOT TO name it such a messed up name. ASPERGERS is an awful name, autism,etc. like what the feck?.

its like his surname ASPERGERS was on puropse/fake second name because ASPERGERS has to be the worst ever name for a condition.


the other thing is, when the shrinks see a person with ASPERGERS, that they make the person with asd, they change their brain so they are more socialable,etc. no point of a shrink trying to shrink your brain and become more isolated,etc.



the question is, are we all one? yes we are.


hi all,
my name is Bill and i have autism.