Is a non-literal theology/belief system possible? Would it be a good thing?

[Kavigant]

I find myself returning to the topic of this thread repeatedly and continue to find myself surprised at how difficult I'm finding it to formulate my actual question. Perhaps what I need is this process of writing it out.

I am reflecting on the point I've reached recently - the point at which I have only recently been able to acknowledge that I do not believe in the literalist conception of deity as found in the scriptures of the major monotheistic faiths.

Where I find my thoughts going next is the question as to whether this point I've reached will inevitably creep into a purely materialistic understanding of reality. Whether I'm simply enacting my own small-scale "god of the gaps" adjustment. Whether a part of me still needs the safety rails provided by an admittedly ever-retreating image of deity.

I hate not knowing. And I hate having to go through intermediate steps which feel unnecessary. If there is absolutely no deity and no sort of paranormal at all, I'd prefer to just cut to the chase and simply give up those false conceptions regardless of any comfort they may give me.

 

[All-Rounder]

I shall investigate the reasoning behind UU. I find myself wondering whether the work I truly need to do is to become more at peace with not fitting into any existent groups. Maybe being truly myself will result in a certain amount of isolation which is inevitable. My wife and my kids "get me" and love me, for which I am immeasurably grateful, but I don't think I can ever be a part of any larger community unless I just never share my beliefs and opinions, because I simply cannot seem to be an "orthodox" member of any group while also being true to myself.

Every group I've ever met that claims to welcome misfits and oddballs of all sorts has its own set of inviolable orthodoxies, its own creed (even if only unspoken) the breaking of which results in various degrees of shunning. Every group.

In what way were you shunned by secular churches if you don't mind me asking?

 

[All-Rounder]

Having to figure out the things not proven will never end. Einstein said the more we discover the more questions we will have. It's truly brain tormenting sometimes. It's why I think it's more efficient to not mind the things that we have zero evidence of, the possible has not been completely disproven but it may never be, and I might question forever about it.

But once there is proof it's just natural and welcome to worry about it and take it into consideration otherwise I might be off track and waste my time.

I won't discover it because I'm not actually investigating it either in any innovative way, I'm trying to understand if it existed what it'd be like but the possibilities are endless so it's going to be a deep delve, and while it's fascinating and frightening it can just never get me anywhere.

The fact that I was practically lied to for a long time that it exists really affected me, like try to accept an entirely different concept of life after all your life you knew differently. So I feel like bankrupt.

 

[Jeff T]

Thanks for your response, All-Rounder.
When my Evangelical Christian beliefs began to unravel, I actually joined TST and donated a bunch of money to them. But I eventually began to feel that TST had a set of political beliefs that were the polar opposite of Evangelical Christianity but just as restrictive.

If you have a hole where a previous religion was located, you don't have to replace it with another, or atheism for that matter. You can patch it with "none of the above", or perhaps agnostism/ "who the heck knows, I'll just wing it".

I don't fit neatly into any political party - I have major complaints about every political party in my country - just as my life beliefs don't fit neatly into any religion. It just seemed to me that if the literary/romantic Satan (as a rebel and freethinker) is your inspiration, you shouldn't be expected to fit neatly within one American political party's orthodoxy. But their website and imagery did help me in slaying some of my own sacred cows.

Where you live, do you HAVE to be a member of a party? I don't know what country you're at, but if in US, sounds like you are an independent? Each party/politician has pluses and minuses, sometimes it's the better of two evils to look for.

 

[Shevek]

When it comes to spiritual matters, where non-earthly reality is described I don't think that any literal interpretation can be correct. Something that just is can't be described in dualistic terms, only hinted at in hopes of inspiring a new vision. This is frustrating from both sides.

 

[Kavigant]

Shower Epiphany: this morning I realized that the cause of my confusion is the fact that I've been shelving my theology books in the "Technical Manual" department instead of the "Poetry" department.

I've since made the necessary changes and everything is finally starting to make sense.

 

[All-Rounder]

If you have a hole where a previous religion was located, you don't have to replace it with another, or atheism for that matter. You can patch it with "none of the above", or perhaps agnostism/ "who the heck knows, I'll just wing it".

Where you live, do you HAVE to be a member of a party? I don't know what country you're at, but if in US, sounds like you are an independent? Each party/politician has pluses and minuses, sometimes it's the better of two evils to look for.

I generally don't find complaints on the ideology but I can of course find on people. At its core stand love, honor and justice, great qualities in men.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions lol

 

[All-Rounder]

Shower Epiphany: this morning I realized that the cause of my confusion is the fact that I've been shelving my theology books in the "Technical Manual" department instead of the "Poetry" department.

I've since made the necessary changes and everything is finally starting to make sense.

Interesting, there is inspiration in the books and they call it spiritual because it satisfies certain senses, needs, similar to storytelling, poetry, fables, dreams.

 

[All-Rounder]

I think I'm having a revelation, being part of TST is as much a label as well as a way to distance from other labels, like the things other people don't neatly fit into, I want myself as well as my closest belief group to fit neatly into, so that we can relate and understand one another the best and can finally feel integrated into something neatly. It is true women don't like being misunderstood. I do love the period pad donation system in TST.

When you can find nothing in common with people it can be tiring and like a lost hope.

 

[Kavigant]

I think that my need for order and clear categorizations/labels has been the biggest obstacle to any kind of peace for me as regards religion.

How so? Well, I actually do have some metaphysical/spiritual beliefs, but those beliefs don't fit into any one religious/spiritual path. And not being able to fit into one neat religious category... genuinely causes me substantial discomfort.

I think that my focus at this point should be on working at being more comfortable with my own particular, messy mix of beliefs. As has been stated here (and as my wife has repeatedly told me), every congregation of every faith is probably filled with a very wide range of (likely unspoken) beliefs.

That just feels so messy, though. My urge to categorize needs to be tamed on this topic more than other because of the importance of the topic to me.

 

[Shevek]

I think that my need for order and clear categorizations/labels has been the biggest obstacle to any kind of peace for me as regards religion.

How so? Well, I actually do have some metaphysical/spiritual beliefs, but those beliefs don't fit into any one religious/spiritual path. And not being able to fit into one neat religious category... genuinely causes me substantial discomfort.

I think that my focus at this point should be on working at being more comfortable with my own particular, messy mix of beliefs. As has been stated here (and as my wife has repeatedly told me), every congregation of every faith is probably filled with a very wide range of (likely unspoken) beliefs.

That just feels so messy, though. My urge to categorize needs to be tamed on this topic more than other because of the importance of the topic to me.

Maybe you fit as shamanistic - relying on your own experience of God, and ability to distinguish between God and ego.

 

[Hypnalis]

@Kavigant

I suggest your first question is whether you want/need some degree or organization and perhaps ritual?

Not needing others with the same views doesn't mean that can't be the case of course. But there's a very big practical difference between wanting to "belong", and wanting to understand your own spiritual nature.

I'd personally split the "belong" path into:
A. Looking for a group of like-minded people
B. Looking for an external agent to provide purpose

Neither of those are personal objectives for me, though it does interest me that they matter to so many other people.

I have a person opinion about the nature of spirituality (or perhaps - why is it so common despite all the evidence against it). So far I don't think anyone has agreed with me, but it's not easy to argue against it, so in the right company I can lead to interesting discussions

If you're on a "belong" path I won't share it though. It certainly won't help anyone along that path.

 

[Kavigant]

Maybe you fit as shamanistic - relying on your own experience of God, and ability to distinguish between God and ego.

I think that will likely remain a part of my spiritual path moving forward. Not in the sense of adopting any Native American tradition; just in the sense of trusting my own sense of relationship with Deity.

 

[Kavigant]

@Kavigant

I suggest your first question is whether you want/need some degree or organization and perhaps ritual?

Not needing others with the same views doesn't mean that can't be the case of course. But there's a very big practical difference between wanting to "belong", and wanting to understand your own spiritual nature.

I'd personally split the "belong" path into:
A. Looking for a group of like-minded people
B. Looking for an external agent to provide purpose

Neither of those are personal objectives for me, though it does interest me that they matter to so many other people.

I have a person opinion about the nature of spirituality (or perhaps - why is it so common despite all the evidence against it). So far I don't think anyone has agreed with me, but it's not easy to argue against it, so in the right company I can lead to interesting discussions

If you're on a "belong" path I won't share it though. It certainly won't help anyone along that path.

Belonging to a spiritual community is not important to me. I have a pretty good idea what will form the core elements of my particular spirituality, but the rest will be up to me to determine via trail and error (which I've already been conducting for ~25 years already).

I'm curious to hear what you may have to share about spirituality, so please do share if you're comfortable.

 

[Hypnalis]

I'm curious to hear what you may have to share about spirituality, so please do share if you're comfortable.

To set the scene: this is something for you to think about, based on my own views. When you get the the end you won't find any answers or actionable recommendations. My hope is just that it will give you something to think about that ultimately turns out to be useful.

I'm a rational/analytical person, brought up in a religious family (a major Christian religion), though very little of it stuck. But I knew from early on that religion isn't "unnatural brainwashing", nor intrinsically harmful.

So later the question became: given that there's something that inclines almost all human societies towards "spirituality", what could it be.

My answer: it's a side effect of the wetware we all use to link "cause and effect". Humans can form theories about why something happens, or is happening, in a way that's hugely more comprehensive, effective, and capable than what animals can do.

But while it's an effective mechanism, it has some weaknesses, especially when there's no way to hypothesize a cause for something we observe. We have to come up with an answer, but it's (at the time) impossible for us to do so. So Thunder <-> Thunderbird to choose a simple example of a supernatural cause with a cool name.

Run with something like that in a more sophisticated society, and some things will probably happen:
* The same general approach will be applied to things for which no simple explanation can be found (like abstract social concepts, cosmology (like why are there seasons?), is there a greater purpose to each individual human's life, etc).
* Organizations that standardizes a set of beliefs, with rituals, specialists, dedicated building, etc will form
* The standard belief system and the resources that support it will be integrated into the culture, and the way it's governed

Some people find that kind of view uncomfortable, so I always point out it's not "anti-spirituality" at all.

The evidence that there's some part of most humans that cares about things like "the meaning of life" is overwhelming.
My model is a tool (at least for me to find a path that doesn't include any interest in subscribing to some formal system of beliefs, nor the cultural aspect of religions (i.e. the second and third points).
They have some real value to humanity as a whole, and I'm happy to share the world with people to whom they are important. But I think for myself, and I don't join groups, so those aren't for me.

Having come to terms with that, I was also able to come to terms with my personal spirituality, such as it is.
Here I generally have no suggestions or advice for others of course.

For you, it's this:
it's certainly possible for you to chose your own path without that choice conflicting with your personal manifestation of spirituality.
This doesn't put you in opposition to any organized religion, nor does it mean you would somehow abandon morality (or whatever you like to call the principles and skill of acting reasonably with and towards other people).

 

[Kavigant]

Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts, @Hypnalis
At my most pragmatic, I simply must acknowledge that the religion/spirituality subroutine seems to be hard-wired into the vast majority of humankind. It seems to me that that particular subroutine is incredibly fertile ground for change to the individual - for good or ill.
That being the case, it almost becomes secondary whether a literal Deity exists or no. The mere facts of belief and practice produce results which can be tremendously positive.
It thus seems to me that the wise application of the technology of religion/spirituality to oneself can yield tremendous benefits to the individual and society. (This wise application should, of course, strive to avoid the excesses of xenophobia, senseless wars of religion, etc.)

On the completely separate matter of belief, while my old conception of God died a timely death, I still instinctively believe in a creative power which I call God. And I believe that this God is self-aware but almost completely incomprehensible to us. The many deities and scriptures of mankind are our best efforts to translate and make comprehensible this God. All fall short, but many of them inspire us to seek to act in harmony with Creation, Order, and Love.

My two cents, much condensed.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts, @Hypnalis
At my most pragmatic, I simply must acknowledge that the religion/spirituality subroutine seems to be hard-wired into the vast majority of humankind. It seems to me that that particular subroutine is incredibly fertile ground for change to the individual - for good or ill.
That being the case, it almost becomes secondary whether a literal Deity exists or no. The mere facts of belief and practice produce results which can be tremendously positive.

Agreed.

On the completely separate matter of belief, while my old conception of God died a timely death, I still instinctively believe in a creative power which I call God. And I believe that this God is self-aware but almost completely incomprehensible to us. The many deities and scriptures of mankind are our best efforts to translate and make comprehensible this God. All fall short, but many of them inspire us to seek to act in harmony with Creation, Order, and Love.

Agreed, also.

 

[All-Rounder]

All fall short, but many of them inspire us to seek to act in harmony with Creation, Order, and Love.

My two cents, much condensed.

Oh, in some cases like mine, it is evolution (like unintelligent growth and chemistry so opposite to intelligent creation and we strive to accept\remove\alter\improve it using reason),

disorder, in other words chaos (with justice above authority, uniformity in deformity, self-expression lucifer and lilith as innovative rebels, severing thinking mistakes),

and love (hail thyself for each day and holiday as a creator and others).