Is it worth trying to argue against her logic?

[Pinecones]

Hey, I just spotted your post here

It's hard to say exactly why she would say "I'm too sick/busy/broken, no time for relationship".

Based on my experiences, and the experiences of my female friends, this is often rooted in a feeling of unworthiness. I have struggled with illness many times and many kinds, and my feelings of worthlessness are very deeply rooted. It can be hard to me to accept that people care about me; not out of self-pity, but from childhood abuse and neglect through illness.
I've watched my friends pull this card because "he's way out of my league" or "he's so great, I don't deserve him" or "with all these pretty/healthy/successful women around, I don't know why he'd be interested in me, he's making a mistake", etc.

A lack of self-worth can be tricky. If you can genuinely love someone and affirm to them that you value them, you might help them grow in their self perceptions. On the other hand, if someone does not want change and does not want growth, they will endlessly push help and validation away and fall into self-sabotage. It doesn't sound like she's in that place, from what you said.

This could also be, in some portion, a fear of expectation and obligation. If she's feeling pressured (by you or herself; a lot of women pressure themselves to be "good partners" and burn themselves out, it's a social conditioning thing), a severe illness could be a convenient way to excuse the perceived obligation. That feeling of pressure can come from action, inaction, words, or even just assumptions. If someone is already feeling pressured but not outright sending you away, in my perspective the best way to remedy it is to back off the reigns, change the tone, and just offer genuine validation, appreciation, and affirmation. Ignore and set aside whatever topics might be adding to a feeling of pressure.

Take it back to being a friend. Nourish friendship, leave relationship stuff on the back burner until it's ready to crop up. If you want to pursue her and feel she would respond well to it, just be there for her. Stay as far away as she demands, but let her know you're happily standing by.
Although don't ever let that approach turn into an opportunity for someone to manipulate you. Not saying she would, just pointing that out! Beware of the emotional manipulation routine; they cast out a baited line, hook you, reel you in, then just as you get close they cast you back out into deep water again. I've been through that a couple times, it sucks and is confusing. Just throw caution to the wind in any budding relationship

Again, just my $.02. Take this in combination with the message I just sent

 

[Quart]

Forget about her. Move on to someone else, someone who loves you.

 

[OkRad]

Sometimes when people are sick and almost die, they want to be alone. I know that when I feel bad, I don't want anyone around. That said, I do like support. If you could ask her if there are ways she might like to be supported, that would help.

Just be careful not to take it personally.

If people don't feel well and shut others out, sometimes they get upset which is totally understandable. But being sick and dying are things we humans are ironically very good at compartmentalizing. When people get sick, they have to be sick is a certain way. Strong Facebook posts and videos with Thumbs Up and a smiling face despite getting a limb amputated. If you are screaming and throwing a chair across the room because you just found out you have to lose an eye, well, there will always some schmuck who points out the billboard where some blind guy climbed Mount Everest.......Twice.

But reality is far messier. I don't suffer well and don't want anyone to see that. When my time comes, my dream would be a small cabin in some far, far away place like upper Nunavut or Antarctica, totally alone save a moose or bear, in hopes that no one would even discover my body till the Spring Thaw. That way, no one could hurt me while I struggle and I would not hurt anyone while I struggle.

The only person I would want near me might be my mother, as she gave me birth, or a wandering soul who happened upon me and knew nothing about me but felt compassion, or conversely, someone who knew me so deeply they would know what I was feeling and I would not have to fake being all cheerful and strong, someone who would know already and feel how catastrophic the disassembling of a human body, mind, and soul really is, no matter how many times a day it happens.

She may be in a deep place she cannot or will not share, a place that goes beyond the Prescribed Way of Behaving. It's a scary place.

But good luck and you are very dear to care about her. And I do hope that maybe she can let you in because I think people are very fortunate when someone truly wants to be part of their lives and you do!

 

[sarepta]

@OkRad . Thank you so much for your reply, kind words and a chance for me to gain some insight and perspective. I appreciate it!

 

[Lithi]

For me, logical and emotional thinking aren't as separate as they are for NTs. I think logically, but usually my logic is based on my emotions. For example, in your case, I might think, "I want to be with her, but being with her will make both of us unhappy, so it would be better to not." I would be making my decision based on the logic of wanting to result in the best possible state of emotions for both of us. On the other hand, an NT might in the moment think "I want to be with her," and if they couldn't back that up with logic for how it would make both of us happy, I would not accept that as an argument. I usually make decisions about my emotions by logically considering the long-term and big-picture, whereas NTs seem to consider "emotional decisions" things that they decide impulsively without worrying about the consequences, which is something we usually never do.

 

[sisselcakes]

Hi everyone. (English isn't my first language, so I apologize for any bad grammar or typos)

First of all I would like to point out that I know every person is different. Yes, I am going to ask a question here because of a specific person, but I know the answers I (hopefully) get won't necessarily tell me anything about her. I just really need some advice. I am an NT woman and the woman I'm referring to is on the spectrum.

I met a beautiful woman earlier this summer. We developed mutual feelings for each other and spent some time together that we both enjoyed. This was something we expressed to each other as well. Unfortunately she became very sick earlier this year, before we got to know each other. Now she has told me that we can't continue what we have started, cause she needs to recover and she doesn't have the strength to both maintain a relationship and getting better from her illness. She insisted that this had nothing to do with me and wished for me a happy life and hoped I would meet someone fantastic.
Thing is, I already met a fantastic person in her and I don't really feel like moving on. That said, I totally respect what she is saying about needing time to focus on getting well and not on a relationship. I will certainly not force a romantic relationship on her.

Anyways, I can picture her mind being made up because it's logical. She is sick, she will only "hold me back" by continuing a relationship where she won't be able to give me what you are supposed to be able to in a "typical" relationship, like seeing each other, worrying about each other, keeping in touch every day... For me, being a person more driven by emotions than logic, I see all this and at the same time I think what we potentially have is way to amazing to let go of. As far as I see it, there is no need to "cut me loose". My life became so much better with her in it. Having these feelings for her makes it unproblematic for me to give her space and time, but also say - hey, let's not end this. I mean, the problem here is that she is sick, that doesn't change the way I feel about her. I guess it's logical to tell me to look for someone else, but for me it feels totally wrong.

My question is - arguing with logic, with arguments based on feelings, is it even worth a try?

Hi there. It sounds like this isn't actually a logic vs. emotions thing. It sounds like what one person wants is different from the other. Having said that, I think maintaining a friendship (if she's open to it) would be an option and to let her know how you feel- that you are available if she changes her mind. But I think it's important to respect her space and boundaries.

 

[I love roses]

Thank you all for replying.

My intention with the question was not so much about relationship-advice, though most of the replies seems to focus on that. It was more a question of whether it is pointless to try to argue logic with feelings. I told you a bit of my story for some context, because I thought it may seem strange to ask the question without it.



If that was the impression you got from what I wrote then I guess I didn't express myself clearly.
(And for the record I'm not a guy)



Yeah, I guess what I mean is that the way I see it, logic and feelings are sometimes like opposites. What I assumed was that when trying to talk to someone who value logic as their main way to decide what's right or wrong in life, my feeling-based arguments wouldn't do.

I understand that some of you read my post as like I'm just asking for a "GO!" so I can contact this woman and beg her to ignore what she said, stop being sick and let me back into her life. Well, that is not at all my intention. I respect her wish and will not try to pursue a romantic relationship with her at the moment.

Still, from my point of view, because I would have appreciated to know myself, it would be a good thing for her to know that her illness and need for recovery time doesn't really change anything.
My point being that telling me to find someone else may seem logic, but it's still heartbreaking for her. And personally I don't see why that has to be necessary...

However, because of several of the replies I would like to add a question. Do you think it's a "NT-thing" to want to express things like what I'm mentioning over? Or to appreciate that someone would express it? Like, would people on the spectrum in general dislike an "explanation like that"? (I'm sorry if this one seem like a stupid and/or ignorant question)

I don’t know her health status. But maybe feelings versus logic is not relative. What if she is dying or ill in the most serious way and it is to spare you additional pain. It may seem logical but she could be considering your feelings.

 

[sarepta]

@I love roses, thanks for your input. I am sure that she is considering my feelings and that they are a part of her logic. I was more referring to my own arguments being mostly based on feelings. Like - it is logical that this is a journey that would make me feel very sad and heartbroken, but I don't care because I love her and want to support her even though it might make me feel bad or "hold me back" or whatever. As far as I see my own arguments are not logical. Why would anyone want to get hurt on purpose.
However, because of all the feedback (much appreciated) I have decided not to try to argue with her at all. I am offering her my friendship, that's all.

 

[I love roses]

@I love roses, thanks for your input. I am sure that she is considering my feelings and that they are a part of her logic. I was more referring to my own arguments being mostly based on feelings. Like - it is logical that this is a journey that would make me feel very sad and heartbroken, but I don't care because I love her and want to support her even though it might make me feel bad or "hold me back" or whatever. As far as I see my own arguments are not logical. Why would anyone want to get hurt on purpose.
However, because of all the feedback (much appreciated) I have decided not to try to argue with her at all. I am offering her my friendship, that's all.

This is very painful and sad. My heart goes out to you. Focus on your own healing. Join a grief support group if you think that may help, or do whatever you think you need. These painful events that happen in our lives that are part of life just happen and they don’t always make sense or have explainations. The way it happened did not give you much closure, whether it is permanent or not. It sounds like you are doing your very best to understand.