It's you who upsets you, not the events themselves.

[Anarkitty]

Ignoring negative emotions and trying to get rid of them is just as destructive as dwelling on them and letting them consume us.

This sums it up nicely for me. It's not about not feeling pain. It's about not allowing the pain to become suffering. It's a tricky area, and I'm not pretending that I'm there already or that I understand it perfectly. It's something I'm practicing and trying to incorporate into my life.

Ideally, in the moment when I'm hurt, I feel that pain, and then I let it go. I do not dwell on it. I do not let it haunt me. When I think of the event again, and I find that it still hurts, then I allow myself to sit with the pain again. I don't feed the pain. Instead, I let the emotions fade away again. I keep doing this over and over again.

I'm rarely ideal. But when I try this, it helps tremendously.

Letting hurt go and forgiving others are not one time events. They both require us to let the pain go and forgive the one who hurt us each time the event comes to mind again. In this way, we can reduce our own suffering.

@RosaViolet, I get what you're saying, but I would argue that not suffering is different from not caring. If we can't remove the suffering from the equation, we are more likely to act based on our negative emotions rather than our intellect. Letting the negative feelings go frees us to act from a position of compassion and wisdom rather than hurt and anger.

 

[Anarkitty]

I find that a lot of these pseudo-intellectual acrobatics to avoid negative emotion primarily apply in menial, everyday situations that the average person in an affluent society deals with on a regular basis. I didn't read the link, only the post, so maybe it's expanded on to explain that it's not meant to be applied to more serious circumstances.

If a child/teenager is neglected, hungry, and frequently beaten, how should this child view the situation to avoid the desire to die? Or does the concept only apply to adults?

How should a 23-year-old being raped adjust his/her thinking? Consent?

I'm assuming I misread or missed something, since I doubt anyone would argue for this to be the case.

No, this applies to serious problems as well, and it doesn't have anything to do with taking the blame for another person's actions. And it also doesn't mean that we don't try to remove ourselves from painful situations.

To take one of your examples, a person who has been raped will feel a lot of negative emotions, and that's natural! However, that person has a choice each day. They can dwell on the rape and therefore ruin today as well, or they can choose, in each moment, to let the pain fade away and move on with what's happening in the present moment of their life. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that it's hard work, but it beats the hell out of the alternative, which is never ending misery and allowing one single, horrific event to over-shadow everything else in their life.

A bad memory will come to mind of its own accord. If we allow it to, it will also fade away just as quickly.

 

[Peter Morrison]

People get disappointed when expectations aren't met. People get insulted by rude remarks. People are saddened by a loved-one's rejection. People feel happy when they win a competition. People feel angry when they are swindled. I think it is very hard to protect yourself from your emotions when they involve input from external sources. I can easily understand people going to extremes unnecessarily if they put a lot of value on an emotional situation that they can't control, but convincing yourself that "you" are in charge of the emotion is going against nature.

Children cry if someone takes their ball, until they learn that sharing has a place in our society. Stealing the ball prompts another emotion altogether. You can't avoid emotional reactions, but you can adjust expectations and the value of an incident.

Emotional overreactions are common among some people. If you are wronged, you have a feeling about it. Emotions cannot be dismissed, but they can be put into perspective. If you lost 5 cents, how upset would you be? How would you feel if you were responsible for a bad car accident? The emotions arise, though we are always OK with the good ones. It's the negative ones that can bother us, in some cases for years.

Being your own worst enemy can involve outlandish expectations of success, progress, and self-esteem. I've always used the idea of "forgiveness" and "patience" to reduce any anxiety I have about being wronged, but the natural emotion associated with the incident still arrives. My alternative approach to troublesome emotions is whether or not I have the "right" to feel what I feel. Sometimes I don't. This includes "acceptance", which I know to be a useful approach to problematic emotions. The emotions arise, but you can intellectualize them through rational thought. It's about bringing yourself to peace.

 

[Major Tom]

Perception is everything, however I think some situations are inherently bad, and no matter the perception you try to have, you are still going to be upset.
I think in probably 90% of the things that upset me in life are due to the way I am processing things, there's always that other 10% though.

 

[Ken S.]

I read the article and found it can't be applied to people with psychotic personalities as psychopaths have no empathy. Only their own narcissistic agendas.

 

[BlueSky Aozora]

Albert Ellis started a revolution in psychotherapy by introducing the world to a form of therapy founded on a profoundly helpful insight of the ancient Stoic philosopher, Epictetus. It goes like this: It is not the events in your life that upset you; it is rather the way you interpret or think about these events that can upset you. So, it is YOU who upsets you, not the events themselves. This is the foundation of all forms of Cognitive-Behavior Therapy (CBT), especially the original one invented by Albert Ellis, namely Rational-Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT).

Do you think that we upset ourselves, rather than things that happen in our lives?


Balance of the article here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/what-would-aristotle-do/201403/logic-based-therapy-go

Interesting question, Mia.

When I have less energy, I tend to blame the events. But then I know it's me who is at fault. The fact that I myself incapable of handling this in better ways. Then I blame myself, get hopeless & depressed. Then I envy other people who got it 'easier'.

How do you manage to think optimistically?

 

[Fino]

No, this applies to serious problems as well, and it doesn't have anything to do with taking the blame for another person's actions. And it also doesn't mean that we don't try to remove ourselves from painful situations.

To take one of your examples, a person who has been raped will feel a lot of negative emotions, and that's natural! However, that person has a choice each day. They can dwell on the rape and therefore ruin today as well, or they can choose, in each moment, to let the pain fade away and move on with what's happening in the present moment of their life. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm saying that it's hard work, but it beats the hell out of the alternative, which is never ending misery and allowing one single, horrific event to over-shadow everything else in their life.

A bad memory will come to mind of its own accord. If we allow it to, it will also fade away just as quickly.

Does the link explain that the method is meant for afterwards? Because it seems to me that the implication of the OP has to do with how events effect you in real-time. Dealing with past trauma is an entirely different matter than how I read the explanation to mean.

 

[Anarkitty]

Does the link explain that the method is meant for afterwards? Because it seems to me that the implication of the OP has to do with how events effect you in real-time. Dealing with past trauma is an entirely different matter than how I read the explanation to mean.

I was answering based on my own beliefs and experiences, not limiting comments to the article. I found the article somewhat interesting, but I found the original question--Do you think that we upset ourselves, rather than things that happen in our lives?--deeper and more worthy of exploration than LBT itself.

 

[Fino]

I was answering based on my own beliefs and experiences, not limiting comments to the article. I found the article somewhat interesting, but I found the original question--Do you think that we upset ourselves, rather than things that happen in our lives?--deeper and more worthy of exploration than LBT itself.

Even just that question suggests to me real-time reactions. Do you mean that to any extent or are you thinking only of our response to memories?

If only memories, then at which point does it become our fault?

Continuing with the unfortunate example--but now changed to "sexual assault" out of personal preference-if a sexual assault victim is upset the following day, is this them upsetting themselves? If they have a nightmare and wake up crying, was this within their control? Are they choosing to have a flashback when someone makes a sudden movement and moves in too close?

Am I just continuing to misunderstand the premise?

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

Thoughts are our tools
Use them
Or be used by them.


Something like that.

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

Even just that question suggests to me real-time reactions. Do you mean that to any extent or are you thinking only of our response to memories?

If only memories, then at which point does it become our fault?

Continuing with the unfortunate example--but now changed to "sexual assault" out of personal preference-if a sexual assault victim is upset the following day, is this them upsetting themselves? If they have a nightmare and wake up crying, was this within their control? Are they choosing to have a flashback when someone makes a sudden movement and moves in too close?

Am I just continuing to misunderstand the premise?

Disclaimer: I didn't bother reading the article, I'm just speaking from my knowledge of stoic philosophy, Ellis's work, and personal experience using these methods.

I think you are misunderstanding, or perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

The person is not choosing to have nightmares or flashbacks, those are things which are completely out of our control. The choice is in how a person responds to the event/emotions. A person can have a flashback, and then by lingering on the thoughts and emotions inspired by the flashback they can remain panicky and upset for the rest or the day/week/month. Or, they can acknowledge and experience the flashback and the resulting emotions, be aware of the thoughts they experiencing related to the event, and then choose not to linger on them, choose to change the thought process, choose to experience the extreme emotions but not mentally linger on them or assign them meaning.

With enough mental discipline it is possible to do this even in the midst of a panic attack, or in severe pain. Once you stop telling yourself the story of how terrible the panic or pain is, and desperately wishing for it to end, you can simply experience it without extreme mental suffering.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

A person can have a flashback, and then by lingering on the thoughts and emotions inspired by the flashback

This was one of the words I got wrong.

Following my rule - the mistake becomes the new thing :

It is now known as a backflash.

 

[Mia]

How do you manage to think optimistically?

Think you become debilitated thinking negatively. Especially when it becomes depression as you spiral downward into desolation. Avoiding depression is my aphorism, staying in the middle and avoiding extremes that are either too happy or sad tends to keep me focused on the present.

 

[Mia]

In other situations/for other individuals, I think this idea is out of place and that to apply would turn it into a load of invalidating, narrow-minded BS that unfairly ignores the diversity of experiences that can make a person upset; ignores the diversity of individual cognitive and emotional processing abilities and forms/methods; and invalidates people's feelings while downplaying the value of those feelings and ignoring the fact that human beings are constructed by nature to react with negative emotions (the emotions are basically a form of information and also serve to motivate us to take protective actions) to what are often very real threats to our well being -- whether emotional or physical.....sometimes I think it would amount to nothing more than victim-blaming.

Don't think it's narrow minded tortoise, it's a basic method to alleviate pain and suffering in a logical way, if it's possible to do so for the individual. Albert Ellis had a horrendous upbringing, a bipolar parent, and a father who was rarely there. He was in and out of hospital for many years as a child and once for an entire year at the age of four or five no one from his family came to see him in hospital. Suspect that his manner of coping with the pain and loneliness was developed early on. He went on to study psychology and these early methods likely kept him sane.

I like the idea that it's possible to reconsider how we perceive things, rather than float about in a mire of self-pity, something I used to have a tendency to do. It's definitely a method that requires a great deal of strength of will to achieve. Whether it's possible for some is another question entirely.

 

[tree]

Nobody says that the technique of being rational must be applied
perfectly or that all suffering will cease if the technique is practiced.
The idea is that much suffering can be reduced by application of
rational thought regarding events in one's life.

 

[Jojo_LB]

I think optimism is overrated. Or, I think people can mistake optimism for being realistic. Or it's the other way around. Or both. Sometimes I find that I can be a little too logical at the expense of my emotional well-being. It's funny that I have to remind myself that my emotions aren't scary! They just feel like that to me because often, my emotions are very, very strong. I find that when I am overwhelmed by negative emotions, I have to "self pep talk" my way out of the mess.

I also think forgiveness is overrated. I can't stand when people push that whole forgiveness narrative on people, telling others, "It's good for you! It's necessary for the healing process." BS. It's not so for everyone. I won't hate on others who choose to forgive. I won't hate on others who refuse to forgive. No one can tell anyone else how to move on from painful stuff, and traumas. We can, and we do, move on and live full lives without forgiving those who've harmed us. Not forgiving does NOT mean holding a grudge and being bitter forever. People equate those things and that's just nonsense.

Our feelings are our feelings. Sometimes we realize that our feelings just don't make sense, but they're there. Sometimes, I feel a certain way about things, and I'm like, "Why do I feel that way? It doesn't make sense!" But sometimes it just really doesn't have to. We really can't help how we feel about certain things sometimes. That's one of the many things that makes us weird and flawed humans weird and flawed.

I think it's just really important to be aware of our feelings, and just be very self-aware in general. If we lose sight of that stuff, if we aren't self-aware, we can end up in some really messed up crap. And when we get really good at being self-aware, we should get really good at self-acceptance. Self-acceptance allows us to be a lot less self-hating and self-critical, which will reduce a lot of suffering and heartache.

sorry for the incoherence and scattered thoughts, my meds haven't kicked in yet.

 

[Mia]

No one will give me the compassion and understanding that I require. Therefore I have to give it to myself, which includes stepping away from those who cannot and will not understand me so that I don't waste precious time that I could use taking care of myself. It's probably one of the greatest things I learned over the last year.

It's something I have come to understand as well. That no-one can truly fix another, that I am responsible for my own well-being. It's been a long road, and it takes time to understand and implement all of this. I cannot place my fate in the hands of others, unless I have little choice.

 

[Tom]

If you are around autistic children a lot you find this is one of the areas that they often need some instruction with. Not that one can't get upset, but that it has a logical relation to the severity of the problem. A common scenerio is the child becoming more upset in an effort to get what they want, or becoming very upset over minor things/changes. They have to learn that in the long run it doesn't really help or can have negative consequences. Conversely its best to save it for when it really is understandable, and provides a better guide for when you should step in a be supportive (opposite of crying wolf).

 

[the_tortoise]

I have seen people apply this idea in an extremely rigid/black and white manner, whereby they think, in absolute terms, that for all people, in all situations, it is literally possible to choose how one feels (sometimes the appearance of this choice being something simple rather than involving complicated mental processing is also present).

I am all for looking at different perspectives and using logical analysis to understand and cope with emotions, but I don't agree that, in general, people cause their own suffering -- that doesn't work for me as a general statement.

Also just because Albert Ellis experienced a lot of suffering and studied psychology doesn't make him the expert on every person or every life. His methods worked for him and work for many people, but that doesn't mean they work for everyone or in every situation.

I said that "in [some] situations/with [some] people" (the original word was “other” but in the context I used it, it means “some”) it would be narrow minded to apply the idea that they are the cause of their own suffering -- meaning to insist that the individual's perceptions were the cause of their suffering rather than the situation actually being the cause of their suffering would be narrow-minded, not that the idea is, in and of itself, narrow minded etc. across the board. It depends on how and when and to whom it is being applied.

And I will add that for many people with extensive histories of being told that their feelings are wrong and stupid and/or that they aren't allowed to feel things, or who have experienced a whole lot of gas-lighting and being blamed for terrible and painful situations that were absolutely not their fault, centering a therapeutic approach on the idea that their suffering is their fault can be very triggering and counter-productive. (Not everyone of course. A lot depends on the person, what works best for them.)

 

[Fino]

If I now understand it correctly, it can be summed up as: Don't overreact.