Leaving Tasks Unfinished: Sensory Issues vs. Executive Functioning?

[royinpink]

I've just been looking into sensory processing disorder (SPD) and discovered some symptoms I had previously associated either with executive functioning deficits or anxiety and OCD (but perhaps it's the deficits that come first, and the anxiety or obsessiveness about them that comes later).

The SPD Foundation gives this checklist of symptoms in adults and adolescents (I bolded the ones of interest here):

___ I am over-sensitive to environmental stimulation: I do not like being touched.
___ I avoid visually stimulating environments and/or I am sensitive to sounds.
___ I often feel lethargic and slow in starting my day.
___ I often begin new tasks simultaneously and leave many of them uncompleted.
___ I use an inappropriate amount of force when handling objects.
___ I often bump into things or develop bruises that I cannot recall.
___ I have difficulty learning new motor tasks, or sequencing steps of a task.
___ I need physical activities to help me maintain my focus throughout the day.
___ I have difficulty staying focused at work and in meetings.
___ I misinterpret questions and requests, requiring more clarification than usual.
___ I have difficulty reading, especially aloud.
___ My speech lacks fluency, I stumble over words.
___ I must read material several times to absorb the content.
___ I have trouble forming thoughts and ideas in oral presentations.​

For some of the verbal ones at the end, I can see how the task requires multiple skills/abilities: feedback about your body movements, auditory processing, and understanding of pragmatics and prosody (intonation or the 'music' of language).

But for the ones I've bolded, I had not heard of this being a particularly sensory issue before, although all of them are true for me (actually the whole list is true for me, except having difficulty reading, and reading aloud helps if it's something I have trouble focusing on).

With sequencing, I get it--'muscle memory', right? But it's so often classified as an organizational or working memory problem. And then what about the lethargy and task completion? Where do those fit in?

Their page on giftedness and SPD also has some interesting stuff, I guess providing support for the stereotype of awkward nerds. They found that more gifted children had SPD than the general population, and "The higher the level of giftedness in a child, the more likely that introversion is linked with increased responsivity to pain, sound, touch, and smell."
I had always been labelled gifted, and the first clinician who misdiagnosed me also attributed my issues to "giftedness" rather than autism, so it's interesting to me to see giftedness linked with SPD.

Anyway, my question is this: how is not completing tasks (or lethargy) a sensory issue?

ETA: Is this just about getting distracted, which could be the result of being more sensitive to certain things? If so, never mind, I get it now, but feel free to discuss anything about SPD... or just the question of how much you think your anxieties or other comorbid issues could actually be a result of sensory processing difficulties?

For myself, I would say I'm only beginning to figure that out. If morning lethargy is related to a need for stimulation, would morning yoga help? Is there any way to make actually waking up easier?

How much of sequencing is really dependent on sensory awareness and feedback--is it just movement? I notice when I have to plan or organize anything, I rely heavily on my visualization abilities, and if I am interrupted, I'm incredibly frustrated because I lose the movie in my head and have to start over. I get really anxious about these kind of tasks as a result and avoid them unless I'm feeling 100%. So it seems like having a sensory experience (visualization) helps me cope with a working memory deficit.

Are other people better able to use sensory information to aid working memory and planning? Is this related to problems generalizing, where autistic people tend to have very specific, detailed sensory information that takes many repetitions to generalize? Does that in turn relate to intellectual gifts--the ability to see the details that other people miss? So many questions...

 

[Walsie]

I think Cynthia from 'Musings of an aspie' puts it best; it's a matter when the demands placed on us outranks (can't think of a better word-feeling flat today) our limited resources, resulting in outage; reduced efficiency across the board or some places are subsumed by more important places, so the electricity goes out.

Given we are prone to insommia which is often a sensory issue, it's logical lethargy too would be in consequence. I see it as the law of thermodynamics; 1st law; energy is finite, 2nd; upon the transference of energy from one form to another, some of that energy is lost, which leads to the third law; resulting in entropy, which then naturally interferes wid working memory and sensory processing in general. Hence, for us, plenty of rest and planning ahead is crucial.

I dunno if that helps, there are more intelligent persons on here than I. Feeling really flat but got exams to correct. Cheers.

 

[royinpink]

I think Cynthia from 'Musings of an aspie' puts it best; it's a matter when the demands placed on us outranks (can't think of a better word-feeling flat today) our limited resources, resulting in outage; reduced efficiency across the board or some places are subsumed by more important places, so the electricity goes out.

Given we are prone to insommia which is often a sensory issue, it's logical lethargy too would be in consequence. I see it as the law of thermodynamics; 1st law; energy is finite, 2nd; upon the transference of energy from one form to another, some of that energy is lost, which leads to the third law; resulting in entropy, which then naturally interferes wid working memory and sensory processing in general. Hence, for us, plenty of rest and planning ahead is crucial.

I dunno if that helps, there are more intelligent persons on here than I. Feeling really flat but got exams to correct. Cheers.

I understand that in any case demands are 'exceeding limited resources', but I'm more interested in exactly how that happens--whether it is a combination of causes or a certain cause is prior to the others, etc.

I actually don't get insomnia anymore (I struggled with that from about age 3-9). But I am still lethargic for the first four hours of any day. It doesn't really change. There is no day when I find it easy to wake up, or when I am at my best in the morning. I need many, many alarms to even wake up at all. I've purchased the old style ones with a hammer and bells, I sleep with the lights on when I'm worried about not waking up...these things help, but I still sleep through everything sometimes.

This site suggested that lethargy was a "under-responsive" sensory issue, where people with SPD need more stimulation. This was a new idea to me. I thought I just slept deeper or with poorer quality than others, perhaps due to anxiety. I think the idea of "under-responsive" and "over-responsive" can be problematic, having just read The Autistic Brain, where they discuss how sensory overload has been classified as "under-responsive" because the person shuts down, even though it's the result of being hypersensitive to sensory input. There are other issues with those categories as well. But I do notice that getting 'feedback' through activity, even if it is mundane things like chores, helps somehow. It's calming, and when I'm calm I am more alert. I had always thought of it as grounding me in reality rather than paranoid fantasies, but perhaps there is more to it than that.

I think a lot of times I respond to anxiety by shutting down rather than panicking, and I'm not sure if that's related to the morning lethargy or not. Sometimes it's strong enough that I know it's anxiety that's preventing me from getting out of bed, but other times I don't know. I do know that my half-asleep world is very frightening, and I am certain everyone is judging me constantly. So if people try to deal with me then, they find me very unpleasant or even scary, because I have to 'defend' myself from them. And afterward, I'm like, I'm sorry, I was still in sleep-mode, I thought you thought I was a bad person.

Anyway thanks, and good luck with those exams! I'll be in the same boat in a couple days...

 

[AsheSkyler]

After my first binge research on SPD I also found a ton of similarities between it and that mysterious "executive functioning" stuff. (I'm never gonna remember/learn its definition at this rate.) Sensory-Processing-Disorder.com has a much longer checklist. Such a list makes my Aspie-sense tingle! SPDLife.org breaks theirs down a bit more manageably though. I wasn't too impressed with SPD Foundation, they seemed more focused on finding huge annoying pictures of people than putting together lists and info. But they are a good introductory site.

I often feel lethargic and slow in starting my day.
"Internal Regulation (The Interoceptive Sense)". The body has trouble regulating itself. While that link focuses on more immediate functions like eating and sleeping, it also spills over to other regulatory issues like being able to wake up in the morning and your body to assign necessary energy when needed.

Morning exercise did wonders for starting my day because, however cliché it sounds, it got my blood pumping and body moving. Kind of like how diesel engines seem to do better in the summer than the winter because they have to warm up, if memory serves correctly from when my dad was a trucker. But what morning yoga did NOT fix was my hypersensitivity to input those first few hours I'm up on most days. It might have gotten my mind clear and my body not as stiff, but any input still ransacks my stomach and makes me sick. Heh, I guess my lethargy in the morning is due to so many mental capacities devoted to the hypersensitivity of my other senses and that's the two extremes balance themselves out.

I often begin new tasks simultaneously and leave many of them uncompleted.
That one does sound like plain ol' overload and overwhelm, doesn't it? I have not yet found a link between SPD and poor task pacing, but there may be one in there some where.

I have difficulty learning new motor tasks, or sequencing steps of a task.
Vestibular (balance and movement) Sense. Largely trouble with input from the inner ear, but also lands itself on the motor learning issues checklist. I also put a bit under Proprioceptive since input from that sense is vital when learning physical things.

Whenever I learn something new I pay sharp attention to how my body feels because my sense of pressure and position isn't always spot on.

 

[royinpink]

After my first binge research on SPD I also found a ton of similarities between it and that mysterious "executive functioning" stuff. (I'm never gonna remember/learn its definition at this rate.) Sensory-Processing-Disorder.com has a much longer checklist. Such a list makes my Aspie-sense tingle! SPDLife.org breaks theirs down a bit more manageably though. I wasn't too impressed with SPD Foundation, they seemed more focused on finding huge annoying pictures of people than putting together lists and info. But they are a good introductory site.

Ah, yes, I do remember your earlier thread about SPD! I recall being bothered by the long checklist because things seemed poorly categorized to me...but that is probably not the fault of that site in particular but just that SPD is not currently well-understood (like what I mentioned above about under- and over-responsivity). Yes, I was also annoyed by the pictures of people, lol--some of them have poor resolution! So annoying!

"Internal Regulation (The Interoceptive Sense)". The body has trouble regulating itself. While that link focuses on more immediate functions like eating and sleeping, it also spills over to other regulatory issues like being able to wake up in the morning and your body to assign necessary energy when needed.

Morning exercise did wonders for starting my day because, however cliché it sounds, it got my blood pumping and body moving.

Oh, now that is interesting and different from just saying it's about needing more stimulation. I would not be surprised to learn I have poor interoceptive sense. I'm probably alexithymic as well.

Have you ever had a problem waking up? I find it so hard to be motivated for strenuous exercise in the morning, but yoga is manageable so I'm just starting to try that more. But waking up is still a problem for me.

That one does sound like plain ol' overload and overwhelm, doesn't it? I have not yet found a link between SPD and poor task pacing, but there may be one in there some where.

I think it's probably one of those symptoms with multiple possible causes. It could also be distractibility as I mentioned in my ETA. If you're distracted by lights and sounds and movement, you have a hard time staying on task in sensory-busy rooms. Dunno why I didn't think of this earlier. As you probably know, SPD also has overlaps with ADHD.

The second site you linked to also includes "can't seem to finish anything." That seems like an even stronger statement, so maybe something more than distractibility is at issue.

Also, I've just realized how my sensory issues are related to the supposed executive function of inability to make decisions (also on the SPD list) because I have so much trouble figuring out how I actually feel about any of the options.

Whenever I learn something new I pay sharp attention to how my body feels because my sense of pressure and position isn't always spot on.

Me too. I've become more aware of this and other coping strategies I use. But here I think I was just being a bit literal/dense with how I read the line, wondering whether "or sequencing steps of a task" still referred to motor tasks or any task. Is there a part of muscle memory or something else sensory-based that goes into other kinds of multi-step tasks?

 

[AsheSkyler]

Ah, yes, I do remember your earlier thread about SPD! I recall being bothered by the long checklist because things seemed poorly categorized to me...but that is probably not the fault of that site in particular but just that SPD is not currently well-understood (like what I mentioned above about under- and over-responsivity). Yes, I was also annoyed by the pictures of people, lol--some of them have poor resolution! So annoying!

Lucky us that it's even "newer" than autism. Hans Asperger wrote his paper in 1944 and Anna J. Ayes was the occupational therapist that first coined the term "sensory integration disorder" in 1972. I just hope there isn't a 30 year gap when they're both finally defined better. I'm gonna be either too old and cranky to play nice by that point or long dead and gone!

Have you ever had a problem waking up? I find it so hard to be motivated for strenuous exercise in the morning, but yoga is manageable so I'm just starting to try that more. But waking up is still a problem for me.

You might like this link: 10 Yoga Poses for Morning
Downward Dog and the Triangle are a bit much for my head first thing in the morning, but the lying down ones feel pretty good to help shake off some sleep. Sometimes I do have trouble waking up. It's like I get caught between worlds. It lead to a rather interesting morning when I asked my mom what happened to my brother when I was a kid. I've only ever had a sister! And one incident of my poor husband being threatened and assaulted out of bed one night that I have no memory of... Not the first time I've been told I'm dangerous in my sleep.

I've also often had trouble breathing during exercises. I always seem to have much slower and deeper breaths than other people. Where they have to inhale and exhale once per crunch/sit-up, I seem to span it over two crunches or I feel like I'm hyperventilating even if I'm moving at the same speed they are.

I think it's probably one of those symptoms with multiple possible causes. It could also be distractibility as I mentioned in my ETA. If you're distracted by lights and sounds and movement, you have a hard time staying on task in sensory-busy rooms. Dunno why I didn't think of this earlier. As you probably know, SPD also has overlaps with ADHD.

The second site you linked to also includes "can't seem to finish anything." That seems like an even stronger statement, so maybe something more than distractibility is at issue.

Also, I've just realized how my sensory issues are related to the supposed executive function of inability to make decisions (also on the SPD list) because I have so much trouble figuring out how I actually feel about any of the options.

Heh, true that! I also prefer to attribute distractions to AD(H)D and any pairings it has with hypersensitive senses. There are so many symptoms that can go to so many different causes, sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in a maze without a string and with a minotaur after me.

It's not clinically tested, but there is one alexithymia test online: Online Alexithymia Questionnaire

Me too. I've become more aware of this and other coping strategies I use. But here I think I was just being a bit literal/dense with how I read the line, wondering whether "or sequencing steps of a task" still referred to motor tasks or any task. Is there a part of muscle memory or something else sensory-based that goes into other kinds of multi-step tasks?

Good question. All learning does rely on input from the body somewhere or another, and there are learning styles built around who learns best through what like reading, watching, hearing, and doing. Something that plagues normal people too is if they get really devoted to learning in one environment, they can only remember it in that environment. So I wonder if perhaps there is too great a disconnect between brain and body if they are more prone to learning difficulties?

 

[Warmheart]

 

[wanderer03]

Executive functioning deficits can be a symptom of being on the spectrum. I have this same problem with managing money and anything finance related. I place trust in my brother to help me out with those. If and when he becomes unable to help any longer, I don't quite know what I'll do.

 

[royinpink]

Executive functioning deficits can be a symptom of being on the spectrum. I have this same problem with managing money and anything finance related. I place trust in my brother to help me out with those. If and when he becomes unable to help any longer, I don't quite know what I'll do.

Yup, and I definitely have them! (financial stuff is the worst! Okay maybe not literally, but I suck at it.) But here I was more interested in whether some of my issues that I thought were EF or anxiety issues could actually be partly sensory. I'm realizing that that is not such a neat categorization.

 

[wanderer03]

This is the whole reason I think I would be much better off living as a nomad. Executive functioning is only required in western civ.

 

[royinpink]

AsheSkyler, sorry for the delayed response!

Morning slowness and yoga

Thanks for the link! It’s really helpful to have some ideas for what I can do when I first wake up and am still in bed.

For regular practice, I find it easier to do yoga—or really any exercise that involves being in one place, holding something, breathing, or repeating something—when someone is prompting me to do certain things or else I get distracted. Besides that, I have very little training. So I really find Yoga with Adriene helpful. She has tons of free videos.

Alexithymia & interoception

I’ve taken the Alexithymia questionnaire and scored above the threshold. I find the questions a bit problematic. After reading what a commenter wrote on Musings of an Aspie about answering in the ‘spirit of’ the questions for those that you had learned to work out intellectually rather than intuitively or where your social circle is similarly emotionally impaired so what your friends think/want is different from the norm, I took it again and scored significantly higher.

My mom scored in the middle. J She’s also pretty lethargic in the mornings. Maybe we share that body/emotion awareness problem, without the autism. There does seem to be a connection there between the interoceptive sense and alexithymia.

Needing more visual/tactile input for learning / NT-autistic learning differences

I guess…for autistics, we are known to learn things ‘bottom-up’ from the details first, so for us it’s especially important to be connected via sensory details. I’m not sure how well that translates for NTs. And dyslexics may be the opposite, being more aware of the ‘big picture’ and thinking in stories, yet sensory input also helps them learn to do the things that come naturally to NTs (e.g. doing math with visual, concrete objects, or using tactile input to aid writing, etc.).

(This bit added later: Hm...actually I think with autism, we're already aware of the sensory details, and what helps to connect it to the big picture is being able to visualize or piece together that big picture, which relies on the senses and/or mental imagery but is an acquired skill. Whereas the dyslexics already get the big picture but need the sensory detail? I am less sure about dyslexia.)

Does that mean sensory input is a crutch for those who don’t automatically ‘get’ the sorts of distinctions NTs are looking for, whether that’s abstract, categorical thinking, or rote learning and left-from-right?

I think you’re right that this is related to the brain-body disconnect. For autism, we’re supposed to have fewer global connections and more local connections in the brain. We might even over-develop certain areas of the brain to compensate for our lack of global connections. For dyslexia, I believe there is a similar difference in the opposite direction.

So for autistics, sensory input is helping us remember the details and add them up to the big picture. For dyslexics, sensory input can help them recognize the details when they’re out in ‘big picture, make narrative connections’ land. And for NTs, they intuitively feel they’ve got the ‘relevant’ sensory information already. But they don’t really have the full picture either way—they rely a lot on interpretive schemas, i.e. ‘they see what they expect to see’—and when they are put in a totally new environment, they will struggle.

I guess it has a lot to do with relevance—NTs are good at picking out what is ‘relevant’, given certain assumptions. An immediate grasp of what is relevant does depend on having both the global and the local, the sensory and the abstract. But you can’t have everything—the ability to determine what’s relevant is dependent on forming those assumptions or interpretive schemas, which means losing the ability to make other connections and distinctions.

I think there is no ‘pure’ NT (hence learning styles even for NTs), and learning is an interesting area because we all have to take in new information through our senses, one way or another. Those that can’t immediately share the teacher’s idea of what the relevant differences and similarities are between new material being presented and what they already know are at a disadvantage and must more obviously rely on visual and tactile input. Really new material may put students on a more even playing field so to speak, while material that relies on ‘scaffolding’ assumed prior experience and conceptual understanding will be harder for students with learning difficulties.

I’m not sure if, at the end of all that rambling, I have managed to answer “if perhaps there is too great a disconnect between brain and body if they are more prone to learning difficulties” or not. Short answer: yes? Haha

 

[Beverly]

You make a good point Royinpink. NTs do see what they expect to see. ASD people see what is there, we are more literal thinkers so, we have no expectations and simply see what is there to be seen. We accept what we see as accurate more easily than NTs I think. My husband sometimes makes remarks about his eves deceiving him, I don't understand how that is possible, mine never do but, I assume it is possible for NT people to see what is not there, or see what they expect to see rather than what is really there.

We know we have a disconnect form our bodies to some degree, and that varies in any given situation with any give set of circumstances. If we are in a strong disconnect state and have to learn something that requires sense we are not perceiving well at the time, it is difficult for us, but if that same information is presented to the sense we are keenly aware of at the time, in a way that does not overload us, we learn it quickly.

For example, you ask me to memorize a paragraph on Autism. I read it twenty times but still cannot remember more than 10% of it so, knowing I am a musician, you sing the paragraph to me once. I immediately sing it back and, have now memorized it perfectly. You changed visual to auditory, a sense I am keenly aware of and, perceive every snip of information quickly from.

 

[AsheSkyler]

I’ve taken the Alexithymia questionnaire and scored above the threshold. I find the questions a bit problematic. After reading what a commenter wrote on Musings of an Aspie about answering in the ‘spirit of’ the questions for those that you had learned to work out intellectually rather than intuitively or where your social circle is similarly emotionally impaired so what your friends think/want is different from the norm, I took it again and scored significantly higher.

My mom scored in the middle. J She’s also pretty lethargic in the mornings. Maybe we share that body/emotion awareness problem, without the autism. There does seem to be a connection there between the interoceptive sense and alexithymia.[/USER]

I scored high when I took it literally. Sometimes I do have strange sensations from misfiring nerves and stuff that are completely unrelated to emotions, and I don't see the practicality of adrenaline when you see somebody cute. How is appearing to be on crack a turn on? But, I do still understand in depth the processes and reactions of emotions whether or not I agree with them.

Hm...actually I think with autism, we're already aware of the sensory details, and what helps to connect it to the big picture is being able to visualize or piece together that big picture, which relies on the senses and/or mental imagery but is an acquired skill. Whereas the dyslexics already get the big picture but need the sensory detail? I am less sure about dyslexia.

That would be rather interesting to study! There is a special font for dyslexia or one of those -lexic conditions where it's bottom-heavy so they can read the overall impression of the letter and make sense of it without having to intensely focus on the details.

Does that mean sensory input is a crutch for those who don’t automatically ‘get’ the sorts of distinctions NTs are looking for, whether that’s abstract, categorical thinking, or rote learning and left-from-right?

Quite plausible. It seems my intensity of thinking and concentration is linked directly to my foot. And the faster it goes, the better I can learn and concentrate.

So for autistics, sensory input is helping us remember the details and add them up to the big picture. For dyslexics, sensory input can help them recognize the details when they’re out in ‘big picture, make narrative connections’ land. And for NTs, they intuitively feel they’ve got the ‘relevant’ sensory information already. But they don’t really have the full picture either way—they rely a lot on interpretive schemas, i.e. ‘they see what they expect to see’—and when they are put in a totally new environment, they will struggle.

That sounds about right for a lot that I've read. Supposedly, most autistics struggle with the big picture because they're lost in the details. Mine seems more situational, there are times when the big picture or end goal makes perfect sense but I'm trying to figure out the details that support it.

I think there is no ‘pure’ NT (hence learning styles even for NTs), and learning is an interesting area because we all have to take in new information through our senses, one way or another. Those that can’t immediately share the teacher’s idea of what the relevant differences and similarities are between new material being presented and what they already know are at a disadvantage and must more obviously rely on visual and tactile input. Really new material may put students on a more even playing field so to speak, while material that relies on ‘scaffolding’ assumed prior experience and conceptual understanding will be harder for students with learning difficulties.

No kiddin'. We had something similar at work a few months ago. Those who'd been in the business for a while had trouble with a radically screwed up law we had to comply with since it went against everything they were used to, while those of us still quite new to the business had an advantage since we weren't so steeped in the old ways. Sometimes stacked learning is a boon that makes it a pain for the newcomers, sometimes it's a crippling hindrance to the experienced ones and is a blessing for the newcomers.

I’m not sure if, at the end of all that rambling, I have managed to answer “if perhaps there is too great a disconnect between brain and body if they are more prone to learning difficulties” or not. Short answer: yes? Haha

Sounds good to me!

 

[royinpink]

I scored high when I took it literally. Sometimes I do have strange sensations from misfiring nerves and stuff that are completely unrelated to emotions, and I don't see the practicality of adrenaline when you see somebody cute. How is appearing to be on crack a turn on? But, I do still understand in depth the processes and reactions of emotions whether or not I agree with them.

My score is always high but a bit all over the place. My original score was 116, my "answer in the spirit of the questions" score was 138. I took it again today without trying terribly hard to figure out the questions and got 128. I just find it really hard to understand some of the questions. I am going to describe the ridiculous thought processes I have when trying to take a quiz like this. I do not expect anyone to make it to the end:

First of all, what does it mean to "strongly agree"? I know "yes, that happens," but I don't know if I am extreme enough to agree "strongly," so I never put that.

I don't understand statements like, "I prefer to find out the emotional intricacies of my problems rather than just describe them in terms of practical facts." I do try to figure out what I'm feeling. It seems to be an investigative process in which I identify physical symptoms or behavioral responses and make conclusions about my feelings. I consider these to be facts which are about emotions. So are they emotional intricacies or practical facts? I guess they are emotional intricacies. Wait, what kind of problems are we talking about? I assumed we were talking about emotional problems, like depression. Is this just any problem? No, that can't be right...

"When other people are hurt or upset, I have difficulty imagining what they are feeling." No, I can imagine what they are feeling. But it doesn't hit home. It is not empathetic, it is purely theoretical. It is also usually based on my own experience, so if I haven't experienced the situation they are in, I have trouble figuring out what they must be feeling.

By this point, I am feeling a bit tired of not understanding the questions. They only get harder. Then there are the ones with 'people'. "People tell me I don't listen to their feelings properly, when in fact I'm doing my utmost to understand what they're saying!" Do people do this? When have I been listening to someone's feelings? Do people I know even tell me their feelings? I go through them one by one...I guess N did try to tell me her feelings 4 years ago, and I didn't know the right thing to say. And J. Does that count? How often does this need to occur to be an 'agree'? The only people I consistently talk to about feelings are my therapist and my boyfriend, and he is not a super-expressive guy. Should I base this on childhood?

And so on.

That would be rather interesting to study! There is a special font for dyslexia or one of those -lexic conditions where it's bottom-heavy so they can read the overall impression of the letter and make sense of it without having to intensely focus on the details.

Ooh, that is really cool. I am basing my comments on dyslexia on this article about dyslexic 'wiring' and advantages, but I haven't read the book or any other research--yet. It's on my to-read list.

Mine seems more situational, there are times when the big picture or end goal makes perfect sense but I'm trying to figure out the details that support it.

Are you able to articulate the end goal at those times? I find, usually if it's something I'm actually interested in, that I am not--it's intuitive. I'm thinking of generating hypotheses, though. The kind of thing described below:

"My view of the matter, for what it is worth, is that there is no such thing as a logical method of having new ideas, or a logical reconstruction of this process. My view may be expressed by saying that every discovery contains an 'irrational element,' or 'a creative intuition,' in Bergson's sense. In a similar way Einstein speaks of the 'search for those highly universal laws ... from which a picture of the world can be obtained by pure deduction. There is no logical path.' he says, 'leading to these ... laws. They can only be reached by intuition, based upon something like an intellectual love (Einfühlung) of the objects of experience.'" (1959)
— Karl Raimund Popper
The Logic of Scientific Discovery: Logik Der Forschung (2002), 8.

Charles S. Peirce (chemist, philosopher, and logician): "[...] Retroduction, i.e., reasoning from consequent to antecedent. In one respect the designation seems inappropriate; for in most instances where conjecture mounts the high peaks of Plausibility,--and is really most worthy of confidence,--the inquirer is unable definitely to formulate just what the explained wonder is; or can only do so in the light of the hypothesis. In short, it is a form of Argument rather than of Argumentation."

Of course, both Einstein and Peirce were probably autistic.

 

[AsheSkyler]

First of all, what does it mean to "strongly agree"? I know "yes, that happens," but I don't know if I am extreme enough to agree "strongly," so I never put that.

I just had a terrible thought. A true alexithymic would never strongly agree to any of the questions because their emotions stay neutral all the time.

I don't understand statements like, "I prefer to find out the emotional intricacies of my problems rather than just describe them in terms of practical facts." I do try to figure out what I'm feeling. It seems to be an investigative process in which I identify physical symptoms or behavioral responses and make conclusions about my feelings. I consider these to be facts which are about emotions. So are they emotional intricacies or practical facts? I guess they are emotional intricacies. Wait, what kind of problems are we talking about? I assumed we were talking about emotional problems, like depression. Is this just any problem? No, that can't be right...

That one is truly weird. Who gets emotional over 2+2? And as autistic people, how are we to solve the issue of distress from something benign like making eye contact if we ignore our emotions?

"When other people are hurt or upset, I have difficulty imagining what they are feeling." No, I can imagine what they are feeling. But it doesn't hit home. It is not empathetic, it is purely theoretical. It is also usually based on my own experience, so if I haven't experienced the situation they are in, I have trouble figuring out what they must be feeling.

That one is pretty weird too. How can you not imagine how a person feels unless you've never felt that particular emotion before? A lot of it boils down to personal experience. If a person has never had a friend, relative, or pet pass away or leave their life, they're not really gonna understand grief or loss.

By this point, I am feeling a bit tired of not understanding the questions. They only get harder. Then there are the ones with 'people'. "People tell me I don't listen to their feelings properly, when in fact I'm doing my utmost to understand what they're saying!" Do people do this? When have I been listening to someone's feelings? Do people I know even tell me their feelings? I go through them one by one...I guess N did try to tell me her feelings 4 years ago, and I didn't know the right thing to say. And J. Does that count? How often does this need to occur to be an 'agree'? The only people I consistently talk to about feelings are my therapist and my boyfriend, and he is not a super-expressive guy. Should I base this on childhood?

That one definitely depends on an active social life. Not too relative for us hermits.

Ooh, that is really cool. I am basing my comments on dyslexia on this article about dyslexic 'wiring' and advantages, but I haven't read the book or any other research--yet. It's on my to-read list.

Cool beans! Thanks for the link. I've never heard anything positive on dyslexia before, but I haven't really studied it in depth, so that was a good read. Dyslexia sounds like it can be highly useful if nurtured just right and paired with the right people. The world really does need a more realistic presentation. Nearly every great strength has a trade off. If dyslexics can be spatial reasoning masters, what should it matter if they read slowly? It's not right to push people to be superhuman.

Are you able to articulate the end goal at those times? I find, usually if it's something I'm actually interested in, that I am not--it's intuitive. I'm thinking of generating hypotheses, though. The kind of thing described below:

"My view of the matter, for what it is worth, is that there is no such thing as a logical method of having new ideas, or a logical reconstruction of this process. My view may be expressed by saying that every discovery contains an 'irrational element,' or 'a creative intuition,' in Bergson's sense. In a similar way Einstein speaks of the 'search for those highly universal laws ... from which a picture of the world can be obtained by pure deduction. There is no logical path.' he says, 'leading to these ... laws. They can only be reached by intuition, based upon something like an intellectual love (Einfühlung) of the objects of experience.'" (1959)
— Karl Raimund Popper
The Logic of Scientific Discovery: Logik Der Forschung (2002), 8.

Charles S. Peirce (chemist, philosopher, and logician): "[...] Retroduction, i.e., reasoning from consequent to antecedent. In one respect the designation seems inappropriate; for in most instances where conjecture mounts the high peaks of Plausibility,--and is really most worthy of confidence,--the inquirer is unable definitely to formulate just what the explained wonder is; or can only do so in the light of the hypothesis. In short, it is a form of Argument rather than of Argumentation."

Of course, both Einstein and Peirce were probably autistic.

I find articulation to be less of an issue than the person I'm talking to just not getting it. Sometimes echolalia will kick in and I get stuck on a track to where I can't explain, but a lot of the times it's my conversational partner. Even if it's as basic as "we need food for the party" and I even take care of the details by giving them some options, it just won't click that we need food.

 

[royinpink]

That one is pretty weird too. How can you not imagine how a person feels unless you've never felt that particular emotion before? A lot of it boils down to personal experience. If a person has never had a friend, relative, or pet pass away or leave their life, they're not really gonna understand grief or loss.

I think it has to do with what they mean by 'imagine'. It's not a terribly specific choice of word. Perhaps for very severe alexithymics, they would truly answer that they cannot imagine it, because they see the 'upset/sad' face as funny-looking and distorted, not interpreting the emotional content, and they don't recognize their own feelings of upset and sadness well enough to relate. But for those of us in the middle or with a better intellectual understanding of emotional processes, we can work out what people are feeling, but they're talking about immediately 'getting it' and seeing it from their perspective, not understanding theoretically.

So that's what I mean about having to answer in the 'spirit of' the questions due to poor wording. The other thing is about having created an environment that suits me--being a hermit or around other introverted/alexithymic people--and so having to answer in the 'spirit of' the questions about other people that presume a 'normal' social life.

Cool beans! Thanks for the link. I've never heard anything positive on dyslexia before, but I haven't really studied it in depth, so that was a good read. Dyslexia sounds like it can be highly useful if nurtured just right and paired with the right people. The world really does need a more realistic presentation. Nearly every great strength has a trade off. If dyslexics can be spatial reasoning masters, what should it matter if they read slowly? It's not right to push people to be superhuman.

I actually found that link from an old thread here at AC. I forget who shared it, but the credit goes to them. I think it's fascinating to see all these 'disorders' as different neurotypes and categorize them by thinking style rather than 'impaired functioning'.

I find articulation to be less of an issue than the person I'm talking to just not getting it. Sometimes echolalia will kick in and I get stuck on a track to where I can't explain, but a lot of the times it's my conversational partner. Even if it's as basic as "we need food for the party" and I even take care of the details by giving them some options, it just won't click that we need food.

Ah, I see. I think that happens for things I've already built up a category for and 'compartmentalized'. Then whenever something associated with that comes up, I'll think of that category but my category doesn't always make sense to other people.