Linguistics

[Christian T]

One can perhaps imagine a day when spoken English has degenerated into presenting only the key words of the sentence and omitting grammar, conjunctions, etc.

Oh, I think its very feasible that eventually all of the function words will give way to ellipsis in spoken language, as so many have already.

Thanks for clarifying my query about mandarin. I hugely respect you for successfully learning it. I just didn't have the commitment or a very good teacher, and I'm not really that much of a visual learner so I was never very good with the characters.

My school has a poster in the language centre that shows how variations on an accent can make the word "tang" mean lolly, hot, lie or soup, or something like that. That must be problematic for those still getting used to the language.

 

[Selcouth]

Yes, I think so as well. It's a pity, because then prosody will have almost no major use - it's still present in written language, but not to such an extent and with so many variations.

Thank you. I haven't successfully learned it yet - after all, there are thousands of words to learn, and I'm still getting the hang of advanced grammar - but I've made a good dent in it. Yes, the characters are hard if you're not a visual learner, but it might help to assign the "picture" to a certain sound, if that works, so that the word "ma" draws up the associated character.

I suppose it must be. I never had much trouble unless I was speaking quickly or something and accidentally distorted a tone. Somehow (due to my synesthesia, I'm guessing) it's always been pretty easy to note that "tang" with first tone means soup, but with third tone it means lie down.

 

[Christian T]

Yes, I think so as well. It's a pity, because then prosody will have almost no major use - it's still present in written language, but not to such an extent and with so many variations.

Sorry, not exactly sure what you mean there. Isn't prosody stress, pitch and intonation, therefore only applicable to spoken language? And how do you think more ellipsis will diminish prosody? I think, on the contrary, it might be needed more, as content words alone cannot show whether a sentence is interrogative, exclamative, declarative or imperative.

Also, if I ever try again to pick up Mandarin, I might try that technique, so thanks.

 

[Selcouth]

Sorry, I was confusing prosody with connotation in written language. Whoops.

Well, what I was focusing on was how, with complete sentences, one could deliver subtle irony, sarcasm, or other things that probably wouldn't be able to be conveyed with only content words, no matter stress or intonation.

 

[Christian T]

Sorry, I was confusing prosody with connotation in written language. Whoops.

Well, what I was focusing on was how, with complete sentences, one could deliver subtle irony, sarcasm, or other things that probably wouldn't be able to be conveyed with only content words, no matter stress or intonation.

Oh, right, of course you'd need function words to present those subtleties in the phrasing. Funny, sometimes changes in word order only slightly change the meaning/slightly change the meaning only - I just did it then, or it changes it completely: her colleague always turns on her/ her colleague always turns her on

 

[Selcouth]

Yes, exactly. And personally, I find the subtlety and variety of language's phrasing (even if it occasionally turns on me, in spoken language - damn innuendos) the most fascinating part about it.

 

[total-recoil]

I did Russian. I believe I could teach it my own way and simplify it so anyone could learn it. The main difficulty is the words are totally alien to English so it takes a while to get to grips with the difference. The first six months I found it really hard and then gradually it got easier.
I now know of course I need to learn visually not orally.

 

[Christian T]

I did Russian. I believe I could teach it my own way and simplify it so anyone could learn it. The main difficulty is the words are totally alien to English so it takes a while to get to grips with the difference. The first six months I found it really hard and then gradually it got easier.
I now know of course I need to learn visually not orally.

Just how close is nadsat - the fictional language from A Clockwork Orange - to Russian? I remember that after I was about halfway through that book I could actually understand the language quite easily, but it was very difficult to get to that point. I suppose I learn it in part of the way I learnt English - no explicit teaching, just immersion.

 

[Cerulean]

I definitely share this interest, and it's only growing for me. When I was in jr high and high school I took 3 years of Latin, in college I studied Italian and took some general linguistics classes, and now in my free time I'm learning Spanish from my fluent husband and sign language just for fun. He wants to learn French next but I'd like to pick a non-romance language for once haha.

 

[King_Oni]

Just how close is nadsat - the fictional language from A Clockwork Orange - to Russian? I remember that after I was about halfway through that book I could actually understand the language quite easily, but it was very difficult to get to that point. I suppose I learn it in part of the way I learnt English - no explicit teaching, just immersion.

Nadsat actually was a reason I wanted to get into Russian a while ago... still might do it someday.

I think, the big thing in general with russian is, at least from my perspective, 33-letter alphabet. That requires some time to learn, just like learning kanji in japanese for example. And, don't forget, but I'm basing it on the movie, not the book (which I haven't read yet), is that it's much like basic english, with a few words sprinkled in like some kind of "slang". It's more about learning idiom, opposed to actually learning grammar. Which is, what I adressed earlier, to me, the more difficult part.

 

[Christian T]

And, don't forget, but I'm basing it on the movie, not the book (which I haven't read yet), is that it's much like basic english, with a few words sprinkled in like some kind of "slang". It's more about learning idiom, opposed to actually learning grammar. Which is, what I adressed earlier, to me, the more difficult part.

That's how it is in the book as well. Was it much harder to learn just from the film - it took me quite a while with the book, even though of course there's more discourse in the book from which to learn it - but I suppose in the film you have prosody to aid you.

 

[King_Oni]

I didn't think it was hard by watching the film. The hardest part is having everyday application for it, lol. There's a reason I have a Klingon dictionairy around, but I rarely ever need it, lol.

I should add, that I rarely watch movies without subtitles... english subtitles that is (and even in my native tongue, I can't watch movies without subtitles). I'm kinda visual in that sense that I need to both hear and see something to connect it, especially language. But with that, I do pick up stuff rather fast. Weirdly enough quite often I can spell out words and names pretty acurate by just hearing them... maybe that's what the link of seeing AND hearing combined has taught me.

 

[Soup]

I like subtitles too, King Oni! What happens to me with movies is that I really notice accents, pronunciation & the word choices a character (or real person) uses. Then, I wind up thinking about other words that would've been preferable in the context in question. I get distracted by focusing on their accent & pronunciation & completely miss what they were talking about. I do like you & check IMBD or Wikipedia to find out what the heck I'd just watched. The random scenes added into movies are highly distracting to me (random sex scenes, car chases, explosions- none of which really needed to happen) & I lose the thread of the plot.

 

[Christian T]

I rarely watch movies without subtitles... english subtitles that is (and even in my native tongue, I can't watch movies without subtitles). I'm kinda visual in that sense that I need to both hear and see something to connect it, especially language. But with that, I do pick up stuff rather fast. Weirdly enough quite often I can spell out words and names pretty acurate by just hearing them... maybe that's what the link of seeing AND hearing combined has taught me.

I certainly find it easier to process discourse by that combination of hearing it and reading it, but for me, the subtitles detract too much from the images being presented. I don't think it's fair to be reading subtitles if a film's in my own language, unless I'm going over a part that's poorly articulated.

Like Soup, I also get distracted by the technicalities of the words, mostly the colloquialisms, syntax and choice of vocabulary, but I've never minded accents. I also always see the IMDb page of a film I've just watched - I've registered there too - just to read about the experiences of other people with the film, and get a fuller perspective. I actually don't mind those racy scenes, what gets me are those unnaturally placed details that I know bear some sort of significance, but I always seem to get them "wrong", partly because most films are made by NTs, for NTs. As much as I love surrealism, expressionism, farce and all those other non-naturalistic styles of cinema, I just think that putting symbolic details in an otherwise realistic film just stretches the believability too far - there are very few real life events that are accompanied by perfectly appropriate symbolism.

So, that's my little rant for the day.

 

[King_Oni]

I certainly find it easier to process discourse by that combination of hearing it and reading it, but for me, the subtitles detract too much from the images being presented. I don't think it's fair to be reading subtitles if a film's in my own language, unless I'm going over a part that's poorly articulated.

I should add in that I kinda grew up on subtitles anyway. Everything in Holland has subtitles... at least if it's not dutch. A reason I care for subtitles is that I have the big differences in speech and as such I can't focus on it all the time. If someone is screaming and a minute thereafter someone whispers, I rather have subtitles or I might not have a clue what's being said. I don't think it's poor hearing, it's just that the audible spectrum should be a bit more constant and not a poor mix.

And no, I don't really have the problem that subtitles detract me from the movie... I kinda see them as a whole. To me it's pretty much the same as hearing an explosion and seeing one at the same time.

But also; I do, and nowadays a bit more, never been a hardcore one, read some comics, so reading what someone actually says presented in images isn't that strange to me I think.

I do however have a problem with reading normal books. I have poor imagination with whatever is presented in just textform. I take ages to read a book, because about 3 times a page I have to recall what the setting was in, not to mention how the character looked, as explained 100 pages ago. That can be poor memory AND poor imagination skills.

 

[Selcouth]

Hmm. Actually, I feel the opposite way - I feel the subtitles distract me from the nuances of behavior the characters exhibit. Subtitles do help if I happen to miss something someone said because they're talking too fast or have an accent, but generally I like to focus on behavior and expression more. However, if a certain sound, phrase, or behavior catches my fancy, and I'm watching the movie at home, I will usually pause it and re-watch that scene. Of course you can't do this in theaters, though.

 

[total-recoil]

Much much easier than Japanese. Let me break it down a bit for you:
There are simply some English letters that have different sounds:
P = R as in rabbit or rat.
C = S as in sun or shock.
Thus: CCCP = SSS ER(R) i.e. the "R" tends to be pronounced as "Er" when by itself but just as a jnormal "S" in an actual word.
Thus CCCP = USSR
COK = sounds like sock and means juice.
H = N
B = V
The hard part is the cyrillic letters. These are weird to write but easy to pronounce:
Take "Рождественский" The third very weird letter to your immediate left is the "zhh" sound (like snoring). First three letters sound like "Rozh" (remember p=R sound
4th letter is a "d" sound as in dog. So, "Rozhd" The whole word is rozhdestvenskiy" which means Christmas (adjective).
Probably I could teach you the whole Russian alphabet in 6 weeks, starting with the non cyrillic and then cyrillic.
Gramatically Russian is far easier than Estonian or Hungarian.

Nadsat actually was a reason I wanted to get into Russian a while ago... still might do it someday.

I think, the big thing in general with russian is, at least from my perspective, 33-letter alphabet. That requires some time to learn, just like learning kanji in japanese for example. And, don't forget, but I'm basing it on the movie, not the book (which I haven't read yet), is that it's much like basic english, with a few words sprinkled in like some kind of "slang". It's more about learning idiom, opposed to actually learning grammar. Which is, what I adressed earlier, to me, the more difficult part.

 

[total-recoil]

Haven't really seen the film but believe the communist experiment has been widely misinterpreted in the west so many movies had a propaganda element. Basically I think Russia's cultural authoritarianism was simply handed down to the communists but I doubt Lenin ever envisioned such an authoritarian regime. I believe Gorbachev wanted to put all of that right but was overtaken by the pace.
Russia today is non communist but still oppressive. I hear 3 Russian female musicians are facing long time in jail for singing a protest song outside the orthodox Church. More people now protesting on their behalf.
Anyway, I thought I'd paste this:
Синдром Аспергера
This is Russian for asperger syndrome. First word is pronounced Sindrom.

Just how close is nadsat - the fictional language from A Clockwork Orange - to Russian? I remember that after I was about halfway through that book I could actually understand the language quite easily, but it was very difficult to get to that point. I suppose I learn it in part of the way I learnt English - no explicit teaching, just immersion.

 

[King_Oni]

Probably I could teach you the whole Russian alphabet in 6 weeks, starting with the non cyrillic and then cyrillic.

I'm already having troubles nowadays to keep motivated and interested in something for more than 6 minutes. Hence I'm not studying anything, lol. I'm quite sure I could pick it up quite "easy" if I wanted to and had a more "clear" mind.

 

[Christian T]

I should add in that I kinda grew up on subtitles anyway. Everything in Holland has subtitles... at least if it's not dutch. A reason I care for subtitles is that I have the big differences in speech and as such I can't focus on it all the time. If someone is screaming and a minute thereafter someone whispers, I rather have subtitles or I might not have a clue what's being said. I don't think it's poor hearing, it's just that the audible spectrum should be a bit more constant and not a poor mix.

And no, I don't really have the problem that subtitles detract me from the movie... I kinda see them as a whole. To me it's pretty much the same as hearing an explosion and seeing one at the same time.

But also; I do, and nowadays a bit more, never been a hardcore one, read some comics, so reading what someone actually says presented in images isn't that strange to me I think.

I do however have a problem with reading normal books. I have poor imagination with whatever is presented in just textform. I take ages to read a book, because about 3 times a page I have to recall what the setting was in, not to mention how the character looked, as explained 100 pages ago. That can be poor memory AND poor imagination skills.

Interesting that you see things that way. I also find it hard when characters go from shouting to whispering in an instant, especially if I'd just turned the sound up to hear the whispering. Plus, whenever I turn it up to make it clearer, my ears just naturally get attuned to the raise i volume, and I have to keep turning it up, it can get annoying, but usually it's not too bad.

I also find that with reading books in fact, I think that literature is great for concepts and creating atmosphere with detailed descriptions of imagery, but not really for getting an exact picture in someone's head of what's happening, or not for us at least.