Long-term NT-Aspie Relationship: Is Invalidation Normal?

[Rebekah Spencer]

Ylva,
I agree that this behavior is not okay and is assholish for sure. I let him know I am not okay with actions like this. Which usually lead to him pointing out everything I have done wrong, he will not accept responsibility for his actions. I stayed up last night reading "Alone together" by Katrin Bentley and while some things described the relationship I am in there were things that did not. I heard a quote "If you know one person with autism, you know one person."
After more research I found a condition called alexithymia which is characterized by two attributes he has: "somewhat stiff wooden posture, and a prosody of facial emotional expression." Bagby and Taylor 1997.
I have also learned about battered partner syndrome in relation to autism spectrum adult relationships and know I have to take steps to keep my mind healthy and recognize my own self worth. This is easier said than done. Leaving the relationship is an option but I am making the decision to stay in for now.
Here I'm going to sound like I'm making excuses. I am open to the thought that I might be. My fiancee is in his 50s and has never been to counseling. I know what it is like to live with a disability that makes one feel isolated and withdrawn. I have C-PTS from time in service. My family struggled through my head injury and memories of war trauma. It took a few years to learn coping skills for a new way of being. It is not within me to walk away from someone if they are willing to try therapy. He called for a therapist a month ago. That person did not work for him and we have now had two sessions with someone else. He will be going again this week. I do not expect this to be easy. In fact, I'm crying now (alone thank god where no one can think of it as attention seeking, except I'm posting this here :l) writing this. Communication is hard for him. Being wrong about anything is impossible. I am tired of feeling like I am caring for a two year old who can't see past his own needs. Maybe I have issues I need to address more thoroughly as I am not running from this as fast as I can. But as long as there are real attempts on his part to learn more about what has caused such disconnection in his life from family and people who could have been friends I cannot walk away. I'm actually concerned that he is only going to therapy because he thinks they are going to tell me he's perfect and I have serious issues.
If my family hadn't supported me through re-learning how to be after a head injury and flashbacks, my life would not be as livable as it has become.
If the assholery does not end I will walk away. A friend asked me to put a time on this. I'm not sure what that time is yet.

Streetwise: Yes, this relationship is akin to one with a child! Not all of it though. He is capable of such kindness (when it fits his mood) and is funny, we both enjoy sitting quietly and reading. He lacks social skills for sure but is involved with certain organized groups.

This is not okay.

Your problem is not that he is autistic (which he may or may not be), but that he is an asshole.

Far be it from me to give advice on allistic relationships, but if it were me I would show him that he is not the only one who can set ultimatums.

 

[Judge]

If the assholery does not end I will walk away. A friend asked me to put a time on this. I'm not sure what that time is yet.

Sometimes that's all you can do. Regardless of whether you can determine where the autism stops and the assholery begins. Where we're all only human, regardless of neurological differences and incompatibility.

 

[Streetwise]

Ylva,
I agree that this behavior is not okay and is assholish for sure. I let him know I am not okay with actions like this. Which usually lead to him pointing out everything I have done wrong, he will not accept responsibility for his actions. I stayed up last night reading "Alone together" by Katrin Bentley and while some things described the relationship I am in there were things that did not. I heard a quote "If you know one person with autism, you know one person."
After more research I found a condition called alexithymia which is characterized by two attributes he has: "somewhat stiff wooden posture, and a prosody of facial emotional expression." Bagby and Taylor 1997.
I have also learned about battered partner syndrome in relation to autism spectrum adult relationships and know I have to take steps to keep my mind healthy and recognize my own self worth. This is easier said than done. Leaving the relationship is an option but I am making the decision to stay in for now.
Here I'm going to sound like I'm making excuses. I am open to the thought that I might be. My fiancee is in his 50s and has never been to counseling. I know what it is like to live with a disability that makes one feel isolated and withdrawn. I have C-PTS from time in service. My family struggled through my head injury and memories of war trauma. It took a few years to learn coping skills for a new way of being. It is not within me to walk away from someone if they are willing to try therapy. He called for a therapist a month ago. That person did not work for him and we have now had two sessions with someone else. He will be going again this week. I do not expect this to be easy. In fact, I'm crying now (alone thank god where no one can think of it as attention seeking, except I'm posting this here :l) writing this. Communication is hard for him. Being wrong about anything is impossible. I am tired of feeling like I am caring for a two year old who can't see past his own needs. Maybe I have issues I need to address more thoroughly as I am not running from this as fast as I can. But as long as there are real attempts on his part to learn more about what has caused such disconnection in his life from family and people who could have been friends I cannot walk away. I'm actually concerned that he is only going to therapy because he thinks they are going to tell me he's perfect and I have serious issues.
If my family hadn't supported me through re-learning how to be after a head injury and flashbacks, my life would not be as livable as it has become.
If the assholery does not end I will walk away. A friend asked me to put a time on this. I'm not sure what that time is yet.

Streetwise: Yes, this relationship is akin to one with a child! Not all of it though. He is capable of such kindness (when it fits his mood) and is funny, we both enjoy sitting quietly and reading. He lacks social skills for sure but is involved with certain organized groups.

I remember one quote by Simon Baron Cohen autism is likened to the extreme male brain,So obviously that means he is displaying signs that are very male,from what I've perceived of people with autism they stop maturing emotionally at about 18 months to 2 years so we stay in the terrible twos they can obviously be educated but it's whether they are willing ,I don't know how easy it is to teach somebody to be emotionally mature.
One thing is to understand The autistic brain as your neurology is different !you will have to learn about the autistic brain he's obviously displaying the traits of being independent The way at two-year-old does The difference between your fiance and me is that I have learned by bitter experience you cannot stay like that that is the only way I've learned

 

[Ylva]

I remember one quote by Simon Baron Cohen autism is likened to the extreme male brain,So obviously that means he is displaying signs that are very male,from what I've perceived of people with autism they stop maturing emotionally at about 18 months to 2 years so we stay in the terrible twos they can obviously be educated but it's whether they are willing ,I don't know how easy it is to teach somebody to be emotionally mature.
One thing is to understand The autistic brain as your neurology is different !you will have to learn about the autistic brain he's obviously displaying the traits of being independent The way at two-year-old does The difference between your fiance and me is that I have learned by bitter experience you cannot stay like that that is the only way I've learned

What a hateful thing to say. So any expression of unreasonable anger after the age of two is just regression back to the age of two? It is not an emotion adults are capable of?

Using Baron-Cohen as a reference is bad enough. That idiot makes assertions using words like "male brain" that he hasn't tested and which when tested, turn out to be wrong.

I let him know I am not okay with actions like this. Which usually lead to him pointing out everything I have done wrong, he will not accept responsibility for his actions

It may be a long shot, but pethaps you could convince him to pursue a diagnosis? Greater self-understanding might take the pressure off him to cover up the feelings of "not being normal".

 

[Streetwise]

What a hateful thing to say. So any expression of unreasonable anger after the age of two is just regression back to the age of two? It is not an emotion adults are capable of?

Using Baron-Cohen as a reference is bad enough. That idiot makes assertions using words like "male brain" that he hasn't tested and which when tested, turn out to be wrong.



It may be a long shot, but pethaps you could convince him to pursue a diagnosis? Greater self-understanding might take the pressure off him to cover up the feelings of "not being normal".

I don't know why you're attacking me

 

[Suiseiseki]

I ponder why non asperger people come here about relationship advice, considering the majority of people here are single and how different aspergers people are from one another.
I guess most don't get that, it effects us differently. I know I have a bad temper and can be abrasive, but I am rather selective to who I act that way with, I think the reason the girls who have liked me is because I am quite calm and slow to any sort of anger around them.
I suppose since I grew up without anyone tolerating my shifts towards absolutes I don't have many left.
(Some people say I do in terms of dating, since I refuse to date single mothers). Your guy sounds like an ass, no if's and's or but's.
I have no wisdom for you, every relationship I have ever had died in a blaze of insanity.
One who cannot teach, shouldn't teach.
People with aspergers who have no clue about relationships shouldn't be giving advice about them.

 

[Rebekah Spencer]

Suiseiseki, I believe all of us have something to share. My greatest comfort in all of this has been people on the spectrum and their partners. My partner and I attended an Asperger/NT potluck a few weeks ago and had one of the couples that we met there over to a dinner party at our place last weekend. It was lovely and they were so glad we invited them and I enjoyed their company greatly. I consider you valuable, your experiences with others, even if they were not what you would consider great relationships. Maybe someday as we struggle through this our experiences will help someone else. If I only turned in, to the people I consider to be like me, how could I ever know you, or my partner or be a full person? One idea of teaching is that we learn from what we see. Not all of what we see on this earth is good but we still learn from it. Hopefully. I see a lot that I am confused and hurt by and hope that some of the behaviors can be learned or unlearned with professional help. I am now reading "The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome," and find hope in it. By sharing our experiences we help one another.

 

[Rebekah Spencer]

I don't know why you're attacking me

Streetwise, I am sorry you feel attacked and wanted to reply and am very sorry that I have been offline for so long. I came down with the flu and wasn't able to figure out how to get onto this thread using my phone. I don't think it's very nice to say an adult is acting like a two year old but have acted like a two year old as an adult on a few occasions myself. I can and will, without trepidation say that yes, many of his tantrums that come daily, are exactly how both of my children behaved when they didn't get their way at that age. He even gets the facial expression that goes along with it and I know I'm screwed. I'm not sure why it happens but you described it perfectly.

 

[JayJamesJay]

RUNNNNN! Then hide.... It will NOT get any better...

 

[Jana Delaney]

He is very high functioning

Whilst I would concur that 'political correctness' in our society has spiralled out of control, the 'high-functioning' label is not as commonly used nowadays because it denigrates the lived experience of those who are labelled with it. A person may appear to be high-functioning to others, but internalise much of their struggle. Put simply, the difficulties associated with Autism are present throughout the spectrum, verbal and non-verbal. In actual fact, 'selective mutism' bridges the gap between the two, even though the 'selective' part of it is actually misleading. I have encountered non-verbal autistic people who describe (in writing) lots of experiences and feeling I totally identify with, even though I have been called 'high-functioning'. It sort of smudges out the years of harrowing enforced socialisation which felt like my soul was being slowly raped.

And from first meeting him most people would not guess he is on the spectrum.

How so? Can he not count the contents of a box of matches just by glancing at the contents?

He is bright, funny, honest, loyal, and can even be very tender and affectionate at times.

Sounds like a catch. You're very fortunate.

Unlike what I have come to understand about most aspie-NT relationships, we have a very fulfilling and intimate sexual life.

It would be nigh on impossible to gain a reliable consensus on the sexual prowess of autistic people, since, (and I don't think this is a generalisation), there are quite a few single autistic people. Myself included.

However, unsurprisingly, many of our problems lie in communicating and emotional intimacy. I am having trouble adjusting to certain aspects of living together, most notably his more rigid patterns and difficulty changing ineffective patterns. For example, a sort of silly one, we have a laundry hamper basket and my aspie bf consistently puts his clothes right in front of the basket instead of inside the basket. Sigh. I have asked him (politely and with a clear explanation of why it's important to me = easier since all in once place, having a clean aesthetic environment is important to me) many times to put the clothes in the basket but he simply does not do it.

For him, throwing the laundry on the floor is an effective pattern. This may sound blunt, but it's probably true. Furthermore, I think funny, bright, honest and loyal overshadow washing on the floor. Perhaps you could continue to have a relationship whilst living in separate houses. I have heard that this works marvellously well.

More seriously, he adopts some very invalidating behaviours towards me, especially when I express discontent (again, being aware of his difficulties, I try to be very clear about what I need/want). I am basically questioning whether his invalidating attitude is part of aspergers or his personality.

An excellent point. It's regularly the case that many non-autistic people attribute virtually everything the autistic individual does or says to autism. But again, the washing on the floor issue is ideological; solved by living in separate houses.

He has on more than one occasion said the following : you're just trying to annoy me on purpose, stop creating stories in your head, you're just acting up to get attention, etc. On a few occasions he has even told me to 'shut up' '**** off' and even once threatened, while we were on a trip : 'if you don't stop acting up (i was crying about an insensitive comment he had made) I will leave you on the side of the road!"

Do I sense some massive gaps in relevant information here? I pose this as a question, rather than a statement. Perhaps not. Perhaps he isn't autistic, perhaps he has a personality disorder. Has he displayed maladaptive traits, i.e. does he tell lies about you to people, does he gaslight, triangulate people, is he violent, sadistic? If the answer is no to any of those things, and you are in fact sure that he is autistic, and he perceives that you are annoying him on purpose, I would be inclined to go with my suspicions that there is missing information here.

He can raise his voice sometimes without being aware...I will point it out and he will deny it.

And you? Do you raise your voice?

I've also experienced stonewalling, silent treatment and shutting himself in our office.

A quiet autistic person, spending time alone. No kidding?

I recognize that some of this is my fault as well. Of course, it takes two to tango...meaning problems usually arise due to both parties. I can be sensitive, crying and occasionally placing blame and complaining ineffectively. I have been working a lot on trying to stay calm when expressing something to him, using direct clear statements, using 'I' instead of blaming. This is often to no avail. I often feel that he sees me as the source of all problems, he doesn't recognize his behaviour as sometimes inappropriate....this is all so frustrating as he almost never apologizes. I am wondering what parts I should tolerate and what I should not. I try to be compassionate and see things from his perspective and I recognize that most comments are probably unintentionally rude.

The problem with all of what you have just said is that it is consensus driven; based on popular opinion, rife with subjectivity. Take the liberty of highlighting all of the subjective words, terms and sentences you have used in the above paragraph, so that you can reflect on how they mirror groupthink. One example is that your version of 'calm' might not be his, another might be that the non-autistic version of clear and direct rarely, if ever, matches up to the autistic version. You claim that he sees you as 'the source of all his problems', yet are frustrated by him throwing washing on a floor...? Are you psychologically projecting? Also, 'rudeness' is highly subjective.

However, sometimes it hits so close to home that it seems manipulative.

ANOTHER non-autistic person accusing an autistic person of being manipulative? Yep, you're projecting. Look up 'theory of mind' (Baron-Cohen, 1985). Just to cut through the psychobabble, the relation between theory of mind and autism is basically that autistic people suck at manipulation. Which is of course a good thing. The greater the ability for manipulation, the greater the maladaptation. There's practically a direct correlation.

Even when I ask him to stop saying these things he defiantly defends his point of view. I could say a lot more but I will stop here for now.

We all have a point of view. Often in life, I, as an autistic person have felt that I have to 'cave' to popular consensus. It's unmistakable. I am getting a sense of that here. The only example you cited of an actual behaviour which was problematic was the laundry issue; the rest was his 'invalidating' responses to your nagging concerns about his housekeeping.

The way I see it, you have several options. One is that you embrace living in separate abodes, which is natural, healthy and normal.

The other is that you continue living together, in which case I would recommend strongly that you shift your conscious focus from things like this:

we have a laundry hamper basket and my aspie bf consistently puts his clothes right in front of the basket instead of inside the basket.

To this:

He is bright, funny, honest, loyal, and can even be very tender and affectionate at times.

 

[SnailPie]

RUNNNNN! Then hide.... It will NOT get any better...

I agree that if there are such problems at the outset, it's not likely to get any better. People are on their best behavior in the early stages of a relationship, be they AS or NT.

To me, an A**hole is an A**hole, regardless of their "label". PLENTY of NTs lie, cheat, and misrepresent themselves. And plenty of people on the spectrum are self-centered, rigid, and clueless. And visa-versa. There are no "dibs" on which side can be the poorer partner.

And plenty of AS folks are honest, loving, and caring, as are their NT counterparts. I would love to see less of the divisiveness about which camp we fall into and more of a focus on problematic behaviors, such as being dishonest, manipulating people, being selfish, not pulling our weight, cheating, not talking through problems...that sort of thing.

Having Aspergers is not an excuse to be an A**hole. And being NT doesn't mean that person is automatically superior in every way. We both bring strengths and weaknesses to the table, and they're just that.

Compatibility is between PEOPLE, not "diagnoses".