Looking for advice on autistic dad leaving hospital before my son could see a doctor

[GinaGee]

I think autism may have played a role in his decision. Emergency rooms can be stressful and overstimulating places. With that being said, the dad seemed to make a logical decision in a stressful situation. It may have been wise for him to call and talk to you before up and leaving the emergency room. I guess we don't have the full background, but I'm not sure how things went from 0 to 100 so quickly. I am not too familiar with meningitis, but going to the ER for a rash does not seem like the appropriate place unless it was some sort of allergic reaction. I don't know how long he had the rash. Why do we suddenly assume a rash is a life threatening case of meningitis? The dad did have other legitimate concerns with getting enough sleep and considering his job responsibilities, even if he did have off the next day.

Thank you for your reply. I do not live with my ex, he drove because I cannot drive at night. I have two children and stayed with the eldest at home. The rash would not go away with a glass test and the advice is to get to a hospital immediately. When children are sick it can develop really quickly so it's best to be on the safe side. They went to urgent care and because it was a rash our son was seen quickly by triage. Just after my ex left, they were called to see a doctor and they had been there from 8pm til 11pm, so it wasn't that late. The fact my ex did not call me so I could get a cab over while he waited there seems to be how things went from 0 to 100 so quickly because it meant our son was powerless over his dad's decision to leave. Also his dad did not talk to our son, he gave our son a book about a dead dog, did not give him water or offer food and kept complaining about time and his body clock over any concern about our son. My ex also texted his son from a previous marriage who is a paramedic about the rash and despite the paramedic saying it could be impetigo or foot and mouth, he turned his phone off after letting our son read the messages. So our son, thinks about what could be wrong with him, thinks about mortality whilst his dad decides to leave the hospital and drives 15 minutes before ringing me (mum) to say "I've made a decision and you are not going to like it". And this is after our son telling my ex 'you and mum are going to have to have a long conversation about this'. When I finally had a long conversation with my ex about this he would not apologise and said "I am not going to post rationalise" about this. And he just kept going on about his body clock and work. My other son who is 16 told his dad he needed to take a step back and think about what his actions did and that was three weeks ago and my ex has not once asked anyone if our son is okay. He has only sent a WhatsApp of a star formation with a news article attached. And he has paid less money in maintenance this month. The more I type this the more I think he is either more than autistic or plays on being autistic and is just a very selfish man.

 

[Hypnalis]

@GinaGee

1. Basic defense against Narcissists doesn't require that you're not polite, and it works on everyone.
What you're doing might work with someone with ASD but it won't work on a Narc.

2. What's your objective? Do you want to change the custody arrangements? Influence your ex's behavior? Something else?

 

[GinaGee]

@GinaGee

1. Basic defense against Narcissists doesn't require that you're not polite, and it works on everyone.
What you're doing might work with someone with ASD but it won't work on a Narc.

2. What's your objective? Do you want to change the custody arrangements? Influence your ex's behavior? Something else?

Thank you for your reply. I came on here to get some clarity. I feel I need to explain to my sons that their father's behaviour is perhaps not just autism because it looks like my ex trades and manipulates people with his diagnosis. I feel that is totally unfair to autistic people. Also son's may have autistic traits themselves and I do not want them to think that bad behaviour is part of being autistic. We are all products of our parents and I want my children to be as healthy physically as well as mentally. This event where my ex decided to pull our youngest son from the hospital and not ring me before he left has really had an impact and I think it is probably the pinnacle of what has been going on for some time. I found out from this that when they were visiting their dad he just left them to play on consoles and put in the minimum amount of effort.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Thank you for your reply. How old was your son when this happened?

teenager

 

[Boogs]

Thank you. Yes, I have noticed that ASD people are bad at lying and have brought much comfort from that because I cannot stand dishonesty. That is why I get so confused at my ex being diagnosed as autistic but then being so passive aggressive and weird.

I hate to tell you, but one overriding factor with people who are ASD tend to come in a huge range of different types.
I for one am extremely good at lying if I wanted to do so. Partly I think because I'm extremely good at telling when I'm being lied to (though I can't tune in to body language or anything like that).

Also, I'm in my early 60's and only realised my condition less that two years ago. I've put quite some time into learning and trying to understand it, and I can tell you I'm nowhere near on top of that! My understanding is poor (apart from myself), the condition is complex (autism isn't a condition but a set of common symptoms caused by a wide variety of possible conditions). What you perceive in him may be correct, but it may be wildly wrong. The one thing you can't do is decide based on his autism with any guarantee of accuracy, what his intentions and thoughts are.

To decide whether he's autistic would, in my opinion, be pretty damn hard without knowing anything about him.
But whether the behaviours that concern you are due (or part due) to that or something else, I doubt we would be qualified to say.

Regardless of all that, one thing stood out for me - he and his son need to learn to communicate better together and improve their relationship?

Also, just because someone is autistic doesn't excuse bad behaviour, but it does reveal there may be more to it than meets the eye and what looks like one thing, could be another.

 

[Hypnalis]

Thank you for your reply. I came on here to get some clarity. I feel I need to explain to my sons that their father's behaviour is perhaps not just autism because it looks like my ex trades and manipulates people with his diagnosis. I feel that is totally unfair to autistic people. Also son's may have autistic traits themselves and I do not want them to think that bad behaviour is part of being autistic. We are all products of our parents and I want my children to be as healthy physically as well as mentally. This event where my ex decided to pull our youngest son from the hospital and not ring me before he left has really had an impact and I think it is probably the pinnacle of what has been going on for some time. I found out from this that when they were visiting their dad he just left them to play on consoles and put in the minimum amount of effort.

I don't think you've clarified your goals yet. The "sniping" is (one) negative indicator for that: reasonable goals and useful plans come from the head, not the heart,

I take it as given that every good parent wants to raise healthy children. But of course I don't exclude the possibility that your ex is (and maybe was) a bad parent.

But if, for example, you're want to shield your children from a known source of (quantifiable) harm, you'll make a better plan of action if you specify that. Vague objectives lead to vague plans.

One thing that's clear from what you've said is that you'll have to make trade-offs. This is very difficult if you can't balance positive and negative factors with a degree of accuracy.

 

[Ivi]

Thank you. Yes, I have noticed that ASD people are bad at lying and have brought much comfort from that because I cannot stand dishonesty. That is why I get so confused at my ex being diagnosed as autistic but then being so passive aggressive and weird. IMO I do not see not ringing the mum as being autistic but rather an autistic person might think to call the mum and sort something out in a straight forward manner and not say "I've made a decision and you are not going to like it". I would imagine an autistic person just doing something and not thinking about whether someone else is going to like it or not. Please correct me if I am wrong.

It's hard to say. For example, I think about other's feelings and time way too much and ruminate over the thought of possibly having caused harm to someone way too much. But I also understand it's very much a female trait too, and have noticed that male and female autism often manifest a bit differently, despite there being a lot of base similarities. Females tend to actively learn more social cues from an earlier age and mask more than males, because females in general tend to be more "socialized" or have the need to "belong", in very generalized terms. And there are some differences in the brain between ASD males and females too, apparently.

The sentence "I've made a decision, and you're not going to like it" may as well come from an autistic person as a non-ASD person, but if it's intentional causing of harm, it really depends on how one says it. An autistic person saying that recognized that you won't like his decision, so he may say it our loud frankly without meaning it in a harmful way.
But that sentence could also be said with a manipulative tone or with the intent to cause harm. I learned to recognize those two in my life after knowing someone who had the antisocial and the narcissistic personality disorders overlapping (both diagnosis). The manipulative tone of "you are not going to like this" is different from the matter-of-fact tone or the I'm-sorry-but tone, but it's of course hard to explain the differences.
You mentioned there has been previous apparently intentional abusive behavior. It definitely comes from some other issues if it's been intentional, in my opinion. Autism used to be labeled as a form of psychopathy before they understood the differences behind the actions.

It's not uncommon that people with ASD are afraid that they have the antisocial personality disorder ("psychopathy") or the narcissistic personality disorder, because of how they have behaved and feel ashamed about it. But if their intention behind their words or actions differ from those of the Dark Triad that have intentionally abusive ways of acting, it's not those disorders. And especially for those who are afraid of having those disorders, as people with those disorders are usually not afraid of having them, quite the opposite for many (they may be proud and feel superior for having those "superpowers").
There are sometimes misdiagnosis between personality disorders and at least "high-functioning" ASD, because the doctors can't always tell the intentions behind the behavior.
Of course overlapping of different disorders in general is common too, so he might be autistic, but have some other issues as well. Even with the mentioned personality disorders, overlapping sometimes happens.
But these are indeed difficult things to tell without knowing and observing the person in question very well. And the human psychology being such a complex topic in general.

 

[GinaGee]

I don't think you've clarified your goals yet. The "sniping" is (one) negative indicator for that: reasonable goals and useful plans come from the head, not the heart,

I take it as given that every good parent wants to raise healthy children. But of course I don't exclude the possibility that your ex is (and maybe was) a bad parent.

But if, for example, you're want to shield your children from a known source of (quantifiable) harm, you'll make a better plan of action if you specify that. Vague objectives lead to vague plans.

One thing that's clear from what you've said is that you'll have to make trade-offs. This is very difficult if you can't balance positive and negative factors with a degree of accuracy.

Thank you. My eldest is 16 so his decision about his dad is his own. He asked his dad some questions about money and about taking his brother out of the hospital and he has decided that 'there's nothing there, it's like a vacuum'. He says 'we are getting sucked into a black hole' over what dad did. My youngest said 'I don't think that dad is capable of making a sincere apology' and he's going to therapy so I have decided the eldest can make his own mind up and the youngest needs to get therapy first so he is better before moving forward. I have told the children I want no contact because that is now my boundary having been married to him for 12 years. I have told them not to reward bad behaviour. The trouble is my ex lives in a five bed detached home, has two cars, a full time job and he says he has no money. He has done this throughout the marriage and controlled us financially despite having half a mill in shares, stocks etc. Now he says he has to top up his pension which is a joke because when we divorced I got half the pension and I've been told I can afford to retire in five years time. We worked out he has ten grand in his pocket after paying everything. The more I let out on here the more I think he's just a selfish you know what and this forum is very helpful. It could be my youngest son is autistic and he definitely does not want to harm anyone. In fact, when we tried to get an apology from his dad, his dad admitted that he knew our son was a sensitive anxious boy from birth and still he is devoid of empathy and apology. Your answer has really helped me focus, thank you.

 

[GinaGee]

I hate to tell you, but one overriding factor with people who are ASD tend to come in a huge range of different types.
I for one am extremely good at lying if I wanted to do so. Partly I think because I'm extremely good at telling when I'm being lied to (though I can't tune in to body language or anything like that).

Also, I'm in my early 60's and only realised my condition less that two years ago. I've put quite some time into learning and trying to understand it, and I can tell you I'm nowhere near on top of that! My understanding is poor (apart from myself), the condition is complex (autism isn't a condition but a set of common symptoms caused by a wide variety of possible conditions). What you perceive in him may be correct, but it may be wildly wrong. The one thing you can't do is decide based on his autism with any guarantee of accuracy, what his intentions and thoughts are.

To decide whether he's autistic would, in my opinion, be pretty damn hard without knowing anything about him.
But whether the behaviours that concern you are due (or part due) to that or something else, I doubt we would be qualified to say.

Regardless of all that, one thing stood out for me - he and his son need to learn to communicate better together and improve their relationship?

Also, just because someone is autistic doesn't excuse bad behaviour, but it does reveal there may be more to it than meets the eye and what looks like one thing, could be another.

Thank you. It's good to hear that you have been learning about autism. My ex wouldn't read or respond to anything I tried to put his way about it. I really tried. I learned a lot and came across covert narcissism and because of how my ex used to be and what he turned into, the latter seemed to be more apparent than being autistic but he got a diagnosis and it seemed he just thought he could do what he wanted then and put it down to autism. He now is proud of it and brings it up in conversation even with strangers.

 

[Ivi]

Thank you. My eldest is 16 so his decision about his dad is his own. He asked his dad some questions about money and about taking his brother out of the hospital and he has decided that 'there's nothing there, it's like a vacuum'. He says 'we are getting sucked into a black hole' over what dad did. My youngest said 'I don't think that dad is capable of making a sincere apology' and he's going to therapy so I have decided the eldest can make his own mind up and the youngest needs to get therapy first so he is better before moving forward. I have told the children I want no contact because that is now my boundary having been married to him for 12 years. I have told them not to reward bad behaviour. The trouble is my ex lives in a five bed detached home, has two cars, a full time job and he says he has no money. He has done this throughout the marriage and controlled us financially despite having half a mill in shares, stocks etc. Now he says he has to top up his pension which is a joke because when we divorced I got half the pension and I've been told I can afford to retire in five years time. We worked out he has ten grand in his pocket after paying everything. The more I let out on here the more I think he's just a selfish you know what and this forum is very helpful. It could be my youngest son is autistic and he definitely does not want to harm anyone. In fact, when we tried to get an apology from his dad, his dad admitted that he knew our son was a sensitive anxious boy from birth and still he is devoid of empathy and apology. Your answer has really helped me focus, thank you.

No problem, I'm happy if I've managed to help in any way!
I'm sorry to hear about the difficult situation! I hope it can resolve in time, even if your ex can't change his ways, at least then when the kids are all grown up I hope things will get easier for all of you.

 

[Hypnalis]

Thank you. My eldest is 16 so his decision about his dad is his own. He asked his dad some questions about money and about taking his brother out of the hospital and he has decided that 'there's nothing there, it's like a vacuum'. He says 'we are getting sucked into a black hole' over what dad did. My youngest said 'I don't think that dad is capable of making a sincere apology' and he's going to therapy so I have decided the eldest can make his own mind up and the youngest needs to get therapy first so he is better before moving forward. I have told the children I want no contact because that is now my boundary having been married to him for 12 years. I have told them not to reward bad behaviour. The trouble is my ex lives in a five bed detached home, has two cars, a full time job and he says he has no money. He has done this throughout the marriage and controlled us financially despite having half a mill in shares, stocks etc. Now he says he has to top up his pension which is a joke because when we divorced I got half the pension and I've been told I can afford to retire in five years time. We worked out he has ten grand in his pocket after paying everything. The more I let out on here the more I think he's just a selfish you know what and this forum is very helpful. It could be my youngest son is autistic and he definitely does not want to harm anyone. In fact, when we tried to get an apology from his dad, his dad admitted that he knew our son was a sensitive anxious boy from birth and still he is devoid of empathy and apology. Your answer has really helped me focus, thank you.

I'll leave you to plan alone (always best), but getting external comments and criticism is necessary in difficult situations. When you can net this down to 5-10 points, ask here again for help.

The kids seem to be reacting realistically (or your pitch is convincing - it's hard to know on my side of this

But if they've taken a position themselves that will be a big help ... because one of your biggest constraints in getting things done is that you shouldn't harm your kids relationship with their father along the way.

In the long run, it's best for them and for you that they learn to accept (without necessarily understanding) their father's nature. This is why I threw in the "trade-off" line in my previous post.
The science is very clear: children need both male and female influences as they grow up. Your case is complicated of course, but if it's possible to integrate your ex into their lives as a positive influence, you should.

I suggest you forget about the money-related issues for the moment, except as noted below. For now, start with the hard problem (previous paragraph).

The exception: you said you got less child support last time around, implying it may have been an attempt to influence your behavior. If you have the patience to play a long game, this kind of behavior is advantageous.

Document everything. If you're getting cash rather than bank transfers, deposit what you get, tag it "child support", then get a printout. And take notes. Courts don't like drama, but they love well-documented patterns of behavior.

PS: Almost all apologies are performative. They're actually a favor from the offended party to the offender, to help them resolve their mental discomfort.
Trying to force one reverses the natural direction: it's a weird, generally unproductive dominance game.
If your ex is a Narc, he's interpret it as a weakness.

If you want to annoy him, set up a situation where he has no choice, than ask him politely to do what you need ... but in an absolutely neutral way. Don't signal anything. Be as nice about it as you can - ideally deliver it as though you were forced.
He'll never forget it

 

[Boogs]

Thank you. It's good to hear that you have been learning about autism. My ex wouldn't read or respond to anything I tried to put his way about it. I really tried. I learned a lot and came across covert narcissism and because of how my ex used to be and what he turned into, the latter seemed to be more apparent than being autistic but he got a diagnosis and it seemed he just thought he could do what he wanted then and put it down to autism. He now is proud of it and brings it up in conversation even with strangers.

Certainly your description of him doesn't sound typical, and in general most autistic people appear to be empathic and intolerant of bullying behaviour (having often experienced it, I'd imagine), but it doesn't mean some can't be thoroughly unpleasant people too!
I hate judging people without knowing a lot about the situation and person, and I know far too little about autism to want to try and guess, but in the end, it doesn't matter, if he's bad for you and your sons, then autism barely comes into it, especially as I presume he's very high functioning to be independent and working. I'd forget the autism part because in the end does it change anything in what matters most (your sons)? Good luck!

 

[GinaGee]

I'll leave you to plan alone (always best), but getting external comments and criticism is necessary in difficult situations. When you can net this down to 5-10 points, ask here again for help.

The kids seem to be reacting realistically (or your pitch is convincing - it's hard to know on my side of this

But if they've taken a position themselves that will be a big help ... because one of your biggest constraints in getting things done is that you shouldn't harm your kids relationship with their father along the way.

In the long run, it's best for them and for you that they learn to accept (without necessarily understanding) their father's nature. This is why I threw in the "trade-off" line in my previous post.
The science is very clear: children need both male and female influences as they grow up. Your case is complicated of course, but if it's possible to integrate your ex into their lives as a positive influence, you should.

I suggest you forget about the money-related issues for the moment, except as noted below. For now, start with the hard problem (previous paragraph).

The exception: you said you got less child support last time around, implying it may have been an attempt to influence your behavior. If you have the patience to play a long game, this kind of behavior is advantageous.

Document everything. If you're getting cash rather than bank transfers, deposit what you get, tag it "child support", then get a printout. And take notes. Courts don't like drama, but they love well-documented patterns of behavior.

PS: Almost all apologies are performative. They're actually a favor from the offended party to the offender, to help them resolve their mental discomfort.
Trying to force one reverses the natural direction: it's a weird, generally unproductive dominance game.
If your ex is a Narc, he's interpret it as a weakness.

If you want to annoy him, set up a situation where he has no choice, than ask him politely to do what you need ... but in an absolutely neutral way. Don't signal anything. Be as nice about it as you can - ideally deliver it as though you were forced.
He'll never forget it

Thank you. I was acting on the science of kids needing both parents - even after he hit the eldest four years ago -and he spoke about needing more communication and reinforcing that we co-parent effectively and then he pulled this trick. I'm afraid I cannot bear to see him after this, it's brought back all the awful stuff from the marriage. He is definitely a covert narc and I have to protect myself as well as the children. He will only do something again and you are right that my sons learn about their father's nature. They have learnt a lot already but I am worried they will end up in relationships as co-dependents. Although I left him so they've seen that boundary enforced. Something that has come out of all this is that their father has been making snide remarks about me for a long time. Really subtle stuff it seems. One example is 'it only takes one person to want a divorce' and 'yep, that's your mother' and calling me 'she' instead of my name or title as mum. He did that with his ex wife and ex girlfriend as well - subtly made out they were the problem........ never a nice thing said like 'she was a good mum' or anything. Can't believe I didn't see those huge red flags but hey ho.

 

[Hypnalis]

@GinaGee

Some direct advice for now (the "memorable experience" addendum to my previous post was indirect advice with a similar purpose)

1. Play a long game. The first step of that is to take no action, nor deviate from your normal behavior, until you have a plan.
2. Do not (unless it has an objective purpose) signal your intentions or plans. Including via your kids. "Showing your hand" will always put you in a weaker position. If you're not good at doing this, work on it.
3. Don't use his techniques with your kids. Not even by criticizing what he does with them. Kids can't read adults accurately, but they understand a lot, and they'll remember some of it. The one who played nice during the difficult/complicated times will benefit from that.

And go back and read the scenario at the end of my previous post. Not because it's easy to do - you may never get the opportunity. But because that kind of thing stings far more, and for much longer, than harsh words.

I can't be sure about your ex of course, but in general, the "Dark Triad" have no better nature to appeal to, and are incapable of taking criticism seriously. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk of course - but (2) above is there for a reason.

You have a relationship with your ex whether you like it or not. But it's something like a business relationship, where both sides have different objectives, but they also something in common that benefits them both, though not necessarily in the same way. So I'm suggesting you rethink this:

I'm afraid I cannot bear to see him after this, it's brought back all the awful stuff from the marriage.

Don't display your feelings to anyone in the Dark Triad. They use any information they get to their own advantage.
And they will deliberately make other people uncomfortable if it suits them. But don't hide either - it signals weakness. "Calm and objective" interactions signal strength.

Search for "Don't JADE".
Not all of the online advice is perfect, but the principle is sound and most of the advice is on point.
It's the exception where someone looking for information/knowledge can (up to a point anyway) select the best source.

 

[Boogs]

Hi @GinaGee, maybe this is only appropriate with respect to me in that I can't claim to represent a typical view (a recurrent theme on this site? ) but I'm pretty much unable to deliberately engage my emotions in my communications, and indeed the way my mind works, so I have to treat things as fairly dissociated and simply a question of verifiable evidence and conclusions rationally and logically drawn from that.

I'm not saying I disbelieve anything said that doesn't fit that model, but more that it's the only way I can come up with anything I'll understand and accept as possibly valid.
So when you explain about some of your husband's negative behaviour, I don't have the other side to it to be able to compare, fact check, analyse, etc etc. This has no assumed conclusion beyond the fact I can't make a valid conclusion based on fact and logic.

I believe that although I may be a bit extreme in this fashion, it's a relevant factor for most people (whether they know it or not) in making good conclusions. Every relationship has two sides (assuming it's a monogamous relationship I guess? ) and while both sides may not be acting in good faith in all areas, these things are very complex, and so much is intuitively available to you (past experience in your relationship with him) that isn't to us.

In other words we can give our opinions as autistic people, but they are a reflection of your opinions (not the same as yours, but based on yours). Even if we can assume your comments are all totally accurate (although everyone's memory is inaccurate so can't be 100% relied on ever) and his are not made in good faith, we'd still need to hear his side to try and judge him from it. Even if it was all lies, those lies still tell a story, contain information.

None of the above is meant as criticism either of your comments or yourself, but rather to explain that you need to give our opinions a pinch of salt and we can be as flawed in our thinking as anyone else!

As I see it (in my ill-formed opinion! ) you may be best to approach it from a point of view of doing the best for your sons, and in so doing try to focus on things that don't need an opinion but rather can work on the facts of the matter, so as to try to put something in place to diminish any negative aspects (that includes your own wellbeing too as you need to be in a good state of mind to do your best for your sons) on a practical basis. I'm not sure that trying to understand autism is a helpful path forward in this particular situation and trying to be practical may be more useful and beneficial for you and your sons and will provide more practical options to choose from.

That's not to say having a general appreciation of some aspects of autism may not help, e.g. knowing someone is having a meltdown (for example) and why will allow for a better solution to whatever the underlying problem may be - putting more pressure on someone in that state won't help either of you regardless of fault or blame or anything like that, although it didn't sound like he does suffer greatly from overt symptoms (but then the infuriating thing is autism can make it hard to see things for what they are (is it a meltdown at all? it's not always obvious either way)).

 

[GinaGee]

Hi @GinaGee, maybe this is only appropriate with respect to me in that I can't claim to represent a typical view (a recurrent theme on this site? ) but I'm pretty much unable to deliberately engage my emotions in my communications, and indeed the way my mind works, so I have to treat things as fairly dissociated and simply a question of verifiable evidence and conclusions rationally and logically drawn from that.

I'm not saying I disbelieve anything said that doesn't fit that model, but more that it's the only way I can come up with anything I'll understand and accept as possibly valid.
So when you explain about some of your husband's negative behaviour, I don't have the other side to it to be able to compare, fact check, analyse, etc etc. This has no assumed conclusion beyond the fact I can't make a valid conclusion based on fact and logic.

I believe that although I may be a bit extreme in this fashion, it's a relevant factor for most people (whether they know it or not) in making good conclusions. Every relationship has two sides (assuming it's a monogamous relationship I guess? ) and while both sides may not be acting in good faith in all areas, these things are very complex, and so much is intuitively available to you (past experience in your relationship with him) that isn't to us.

In other words we can give our opinions as autistic people, but they are a reflection of your opinions (not the same as yours, but based on yours). Even if we can assume your comments are all totally accurate (although everyone's memory is inaccurate so can't be 100% relied on ever) and his are not made in good faith, we'd still need to hear his side to try and judge him from it. Even if it was all lies, those lies still tell a story, contain information.

None of the above is meant as criticism either of your comments or yourself, but rather to explain that you need to give our opinions a pinch of salt and we can be as flawed in our thinking as anyone else!

As I see it (in my ill-formed opinion! ) you may be best to approach it from a point of view of doing the best for your sons, and in so doing try to focus on things that don't need an opinion but rather can work on the facts of the matter, so as to try to put something in place to diminish any negative aspects (that includes your own wellbeing too as you need to be in a good state of mind to do your best for your sons) on a practical basis. I'm not sure that trying to understand autism is a helpful path forward in this particular situation and trying to be practical may be more useful and beneficial for you and your sons and will provide more practical options to choose from.

That's not to say having a general appreciation of some aspects of autism may not help, e.g. knowing someone is having a meltdown (for example) and why will allow for a better solution to whatever the underlying problem may be - putting more pressure on someone in that state won't help either of you regardless of fault or blame or anything like that, although it didn't sound like he does suffer greatly from overt symptoms (but then the infuriating thing is autism can make it hard to see things for what they are (is it a meltdown at all? it's not always obvious either way)).

Thank you. I think I get stuck wondering whether stuff that is happening is really real. It takes time for things to sink in with me when people do negative things. Being practical is a good way forward and I like the term 'no excuse for bad behaviour', it puts a healthier boundary up rather than wondering is someone this or that.

 

[GinaGee]

Hi @GinaGee, maybe this is only appropriate with respect to me in that I can't claim to represent a typical view (a recurrent theme on this site? ) but I'm pretty much unable to deliberately engage my emotions in my communications, and indeed the way my mind works, so I have to treat things as fairly dissociated and simply a question of verifiable evidence and conclusions rationally and logically drawn from that.

I'm not saying I disbelieve anything said that doesn't fit that model, but more that it's the only way I can come up with anything I'll understand and accept as possibly valid.
So when you explain about some of your husband's negative behaviour, I don't have the other side to it to be able to compare, fact check, analyse, etc etc. This has no assumed conclusion beyond the fact I can't make a valid conclusion based on fact and logic.

I believe that although I may be a bit extreme in this fashion, it's a relevant factor for most people (whether they know it or not) in making good conclusions. Every relationship has two sides (assuming it's a monogamous relationship I guess? ) and while both sides may not be acting in good faith in all areas, these things are very complex, and so much is intuitively available to you (past experience in your relationship with him) that isn't to us.

In other words we can give our opinions as autistic people, but they are a reflection of your opinions (not the same as yours, but based on yours). Even if we can assume your comments are all totally accurate (although everyone's memory is inaccurate so can't be 100% relied on ever) and his are not made in good faith, we'd still need to hear his side to try and judge him from it. Even if it was all lies, those lies still tell a story, contain information.

None of the above is meant as criticism either of your comments or yourself, but rather to explain that you need to give our opinions a pinch of salt and we can be as flawed in our thinking as anyone else!

As I see it (in my ill-formed opinion! ) you may be best to approach it from a point of view of doing the best for your sons, and in so doing try to focus on things that don't need an opinion but rather can work on the facts of the matter, so as to try to put something in place to diminish any negative aspects (that includes your own wellbeing too as you need to be in a good state of mind to do your best for your sons) on a practical basis. I'm not sure that trying to understand autism is a helpful path forward in this particular situation and trying to be practical may be more useful and beneficial for you and your sons and will provide more practical options to choose from.

That's not to say having a general appreciation of some aspects of autism may not help, e.g. knowing someone is having a meltdown (for example) and why will allow for a better solution to whatever the underlying problem may be - putting more pressure on someone in that state won't help either of you regardless of fault or blame or anything like that, although it didn't sound like he does suffer greatly from overt symptoms (but then the infuriating thing is autism can make it hard to see things for what they are (is it a meltdown at all? it's not always obvious either way)).

Thank you. I appreciate your points.

 

[GinaGee]

@GinaGee

Some direct advice for now (the "memorable experience" addendum to my previous post was indirect advice with a similar purpose)

1. Play a long game. The first step of that is to take no action, nor deviate from your normal behavior, until you have a plan.
2. Do not (unless it has an objective purpose) signal your intentions or plans. Including via your kids. "Showing your hand" will always put you in a weaker position. If you're not good at doing this, work on it.
3. Don't use his techniques with your kids. Not even by criticizing what he does with them. Kids can't read adults accurately, but they understand a lot, and they'll remember some of it. The one who played nice during the difficult/complicated times will benefit from that.

And go back and read the scenario at the end of my previous post. Not because it's easy to do - you may never get the opportunity. But because that kind of thing stings far more, and for much longer, than harsh words.

I can't be sure about your ex of course, but in general, the "Dark Triad" have no better nature to appeal to, and are incapable of taking criticism seriously. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk of course - but (2) above is there for a reason.

You have a relationship with your ex whether you like it or not. But it's something like a business relationship, where both sides have different objectives, but they also something in common that benefits them both, though not necessarily in the same way. So I'm suggesting you rethink this:



Don't display your feelings to anyone in the Dark Triad. They use any information they get to their own advantage.
And they will deliberately make other people uncomfortable if it suits them. But don't hide either - it signals weakness. "Calm and objective" interactions signal strength.

Search for "Don't JADE".
Not all of the online advice is perfect, but the principle is sound and most of the advice is on point.
It's the exception where someone looking for information/knowledge can (up to a point anyway) select the best source.

This is excellent advice, thank you. Most appreciated. I wish I had found Don't JADE earlier! I have just e-mailed that to my sons as it is good life advice regardless of my reason for posting.

 

[Hypnalis]

This is excellent advice, thank you. Most appreciated. I wish I had found Don't JADE earlier! I have just e-mailed that to my sons as it is good life advice regardless of my reason for posting.

Agree. It's good general advice, works well against corrosive people, and is fairly easy to apply.

You need to develop assertiveness skills to use it against a "Dark Triad" member, but that's also well worth the effort.

A 16-year-old can use this up to a point, but even at that age they still have trouble staying calm, regulating their emotions, knowing when to stop talking, knowing when and how to disengage, etc.
You might be able to practice it with him.

With the younger one, aim lower: It's enough if he can clearly and calmly state his needs, and defend them politely but firmly against mild opposition.

We can talk more about this later if you like, because it won't be easy for either of your kids (only 2?).
They can't "win" against an adult Narc, so they need to learn how to "lose" (disengage peacefully) in a way that lets them hand the issue off to you later.

Also (I have to say this - it's not indicative of an unusual level of caution on my part) please don't weaponize this.

You can find the techniques for it on the web, but it's not ok for an adult to use their mutual children as "soldiers" against a previous partner. Even if the other partner is doing it.

For you though: adult-to-adult, applying this principle with a modest level of skill is much more effective at discomforting a Narc than emotionally-charged, high volume expressions of dissatisfaction