Looking for advice on boundary issues

[GypsyMoth]

What a great reply, @Gerontius! Hope you're ok with my passing it along.

 

[Gerontius]

What a great reply, @Gerontius! Hope you're ok with my passing it along.

Usually I can barely remember what I've written, so go on ahead with it--feel free to share, alter, do whatever. No worries.

 

[GypsyMoth]

There's always a fine line between Executive Dysfunction and "Weaponized Incompetence".

And some Aspies are inclined to do, or not do, things for which the consequences are severe, to the point of obvious and significant negative effects on their own lives.

IMO step one is a BS test.

The easy way to remember the testing principle: abusers who become enraged and smash stuff up somehow never smash their own things /lol.

The BS test is just to see if the kid takes care of things that matter to him. Your friend will know the answer already. The test is to contextualize it for her.

Important: the next step isn't to take away the few things that matter to him. He already has control through denial, inaction and refusal, and he won't let that go. So a "head-banging competition is out - push him and he'll happily go without washing (himself or the laundry) forever.

Your friend should plan an adult interaction.

Or, if she has been enabling him, you should plan one with her first.

BTW, "statistically" it's not unlikely she is contributing, but there's no data in your OP so I have no idea one way or the other. But if you look around here you'll see plenty of examples of "learned helplessness". That's another "fine line" that could have been be integrated into my first sentence. It's not easy to address, but nor is it impossible.

Learned helplessness ought to be banned. I do not like it when the victim card is played--it's bad for the family members being emotionally blackmailed, and it's bad for the person placing themselves in the role of victim. It's an awful form of self-abuse through which they terrorize those around them. (Clearly, I have some experience with family members like that.)

Rather, he's taking this in the manner of it being a badge of honor! (And he does take good care of his things. Just not his laundry, his personal hygiene, or her personal space when asked to respect it. I'm going to tell her about your BS test. Thanks!)

Surely you're right that she's contributing, somehow. We just haven't figured out how. (I don't think I'd know 'enabling' behavior if I saw it. I have no experience raising children.) About her, she is a fairly cut-and-dried person and has deemed his behavior to be waaay out of bounds. She's fed up--livid fed up. But nothing she's doing to deal with the situation is working. If anything, he's grown more obstinate!

I've been listening to her frustration grow over the past few months and have also come to realize she is very conscientious about how she uses her authority. She might raise her voice but she would never misuse it. I've thought of suggesting that she might invite in an adult he respects from outside of the family to intervene and who could serve as an accountability partner for him. I'll pass your reply along and will ask if there's someone she knows who might play such a role for him, both as an interventionist and as an accountability partner.

 

[MildredHubble]

Perhaps a way of resolving part of the problem would be to do something like this...

As far as the chores go, for a time, perhaps his mother could say "ok, let's do the laundry and have a talk." So you are kinda associating something he feels the need to do (talking at length) and something he's reluctantly doing (laundry).

Maybe (as far as is possible) when he begins to talk say, "let's have a chat and do some chores..."

Essentially I'm thinking if he needs to get into what I describe as a verbal avalanche, by making "talk time" also "chores time" it may minimise the talking and maximize the chores.

I hope that makes some sense.

Maybe for a time they can do the chores together while he talks and slowly his mother can make an excuse to go do something else progressively earlier each time and hopefully leave him too it eventually.

Like a bit of psychological slight of hand?

 

[Gerontius]

Perhaps a way of resolving part of the problem would be to do something like this...

As far as the chores go, for a time, perhaps his mother could say "ok, let's do the laundry and have a talk." So you are kinda associating something he feels the need to do (talking at length) and something he's reluctantly doing (laundry).

Maybe (as far as is possible) when he begins to talk say, "let's have a chat and do some chores..."

Essentially I'm thinking if he needs to get into what I describe as a verbal avalanche, by making "talk time" also "chores time" it may minimise the talking and maximize the chores.

I hope that makes some sense.

Maybe for a time they can do the chores together while he talks and slowly his mother can make an excuse to go do something else progressively earlier each time and hopefully leave him too it eventually.

Like a bit of psychological slight of hand?

That's incredibly creative. Talking is a necessity. I can trace a ton of my problems to a deep loneliness. So--I take and go talk to random people.
The kid could probably do well with this, and his mother can use this time to teach him appropriate conversation (as in, not monopolizing!)

 

[Crossbreed]

Learned helplessness ought to be banned. I do not like it when the victim card is played--it's bad for the family members being emotionally blackmailed, and it's bad for the person placing themselves in the role of victim. It's an awful form of self-abuse through which they terrorize those around them. (Clearly, I have some experience with family members like that.)

I have held off in offering leverage-type advice until the question of severity has been answered. NT tactics should generally work for 1s, but less likely for 2s.

In my ASD2 son's case, it really is not "weaponized incompetence." He really does have executive dysfunction even when it comes to causation/natural consequences, even more so toward human-imposed consequences.

When he was young, we would take away a privilege when he did something he was not supposed to, but he would treat that as us being mean rather than the expected consequences of his misdeed. He was effectively incorrigible apart from us physically interfering with his bad actions.

If he bumped into a fixed object (like the stair post), he would smack it for having the audacity to strike him "unprovoked." His ASD3 sister has a better sense of simple causation than he does.

 

[GypsyMoth]

Essentially I'm thinking if he needs to get into what I describe as a verbal avalanche, by making "talk time" also "chores time" it may minimise the talking and maximize the chores.
...
Like a bit of psychological slight of hand?

Great suggestion--thanks! I'll pass it along!

 

[GypsyMoth]

I have held off in offering leverage-type advice until the question of severity has been answered. NT tactics should generally work for 1s, but less likely for 2s.

I asked and his diagnosis as a child was Asberger's, but a few years ago when she took him to be retested the therapist said he doesn't have it anymore. Like, seriously??? Turns out he had just taken a psychology course and spent the whole time talking theory. He's exceptionally verbal--he just can't connect that talk to living! I think the therapist got schnookered & saw what he wanted to see, and completely disregarded the reality of what this kid's daily life can be like & the agony he has suffered at school and the job he was quickly dismissed from.

I chaperone a youth group he belonged to and I can tell you that his whole perception of the way the world is, is not as it is for most young people his age. He's got a wonderful personality and he's a super sweet kid. But when I supervised him, I literally had to make a verbal checklist and handhold him through the checklist for every activity. Which I was for the most part fine with--much to the relief of other, more frustrated adults when we were all tired out from the heat and high humidity we found ourselves all working in. (I just took his complaints as things I wanted to say but had much too much tact to say so!)

A few years later, when I found myself having to do the same exact thing for my uncle when I helped him move, it occurred to me that this was too similar to my young friend's condition & started (again) reading up on autism. I was quite confident that I was not on the spectrum when this all began.

I have no idea what NT tactics are. But I've begun reading up on ND relationship skills this week so maybe I'll start a new post on that this weekend.

In my ASD2 son's case, it really is not "weaponized incompetence." He really does have executive dysfunction even when it comes to causation/natural consequences, even more so toward human-imposed consequences.

Yes--whatever it's called in getting from an idea to a completed action, my young friend really struggles with that. He always has, ever since I first knew him. I know a little about executive function--enough to know why my house looks like it does with all the stress I've been under--but not enough for it to be useful in this case. I'll add this to my read-up-on list for the weekend.

When he was young, we would take away a privilege when he did something he was not supposed to, but he would treat that as us being mean rather than the expected consequences of his misdeed. He was effectively incorrigible apart from us physically interfering with his bad actions.

If he bumped into a fixed object (like the stair post), he would smack it for having the audacity to strike him "unprovoked." His ASD3 sister has a better sense of simple causation than he does.

That must have been tough to deal with. You said, "when he was young." Was he able to grow and adapt a healthier perspective of cause and effect over time?

My friend's son 'gets' causation. He just doesn't engage in enough causation (i.e., laundering his laundry) to have a good effect on the laundry besides adding to its odor. I just hope he drops the "well people have to take me for who I am!" gig with regard to poor hygiene. It's really not helpful.

I have been thinking of making a point by example. I will PM you tomorrow (for the sake of peace in our house I've been cutting my internet use short)--I'd love to hear what your thoughts might be on this.

 

[Crossbreed]

I asked and his diagnosis as a child was Asberger's, but a few years ago when she took him to be retested the therapist said he doesn't have it anymore. Like, seriously???

Outside of autism-competent services, autism (particularly ASD1) is a political football whose detractors accuse of over-diagnosis. It is quite common for such a diagnosis to be rescinded due to political & economic pressure. ASD1 is not pharmaceutically lucrative; there is no medicine for it, only for the the severe co-morbids accompanying ASD2 & 3.

Even with that dispute, there are some practical indicators that you can look for.

1. Does he now (or has he ever) receive SSI for disability? That requires a diagnosis, but not all 1s qualify.
2. Did they pay him directly when he turned 18? They won't with a 2 or 3.
3. Was he in special education in high school? All 2s & 3s end up in special ed.
4. If not special ed., did he end up in a 504 plan or gifted class? The school psychologist might have more to say about ASD1 in his case. ASD1s typically perform better on non-verbal (vs. verbal) IQ tests.

I have no idea what NT tactics are.

Basically, conventional negotiations. If you meet these conditions, I will do this in return...

If you take a shower/do laundry/pick up your room/etc. before a certain time, I am willing to do you the favor of driving you to an event that I have no obligation to do so...

NTs & ASD1s can get that.

You said, "when he was young." Was he able to grow and adapt a healthier perspective of cause and effect over time?

Not at all. He is clueless about how his bad decisions are the source of his constant financial & social woes. But since he has a rep payee, his shelter is assured. He has EBT, too, but he is not above selling his food so purchased to get the latest video game...

The one thing that has lightened up is that I am no longer his landlord. I would not allow certain music, movies & media in my home, even as an adult. That is not my problem in his home.

 

[Crossbreed]

Was he able to grow and adapt a healthier perspective of cause and effect over time?

He willingly accepts credit or personal loans (for recreational purchases) with absolutely no forethought of how he might pay them back.
He will beg an item from a neighbor for money or trade later and then decide that he did not want to part with the promised item after all, and then wonder why that neighbor suddenly became angry --and stingy-- with him...! Or offer his food in trade only to decide that it was illegal to do so, after the fact. He would then complain to me that his neighbor keeps demanding his food... When I or his rep payee would rebuke him, he would attempt to play one of us against the other, but we both see through that, now.

Those are from executive dysfunction combined with OCD making empty promises.

When I brokered deals between him and his brothers, I always required some form of collateral from him.

 

[GypsyMoth]

A follow-up to my friend's predicament. She decided to approach it as a time management issue.

So she set aside a time when her son could talk as much as he wanted. She said, she told him when she'd get off of work and when she would be on the treadmill, and that if he wanted to talk to her at length, he could. So when that hour rolled around, she turned the treadmill on mute and, sure enough, he came down, too, and she walked while he chattered on about his day's activities.

It worked out pretty well.

Doesn't mean this is solved, but for that hour it was.

 

[GypsyMoth]

By the way, she greatly appreciated everyone's comments. I still can't get her to sign up here, but that's ok. She knows way more people than I'll ever, and besides, as she's on the computer all day for work, I can't blame her when she turns the thing off, it's off.

 

[Crossbreed]

@GypsyMoth, you said that he had a diagnosis but it was recently rescinded. Was that recent enough that he can approach another counselor for a second opinion?

If he really is ASD, it will be harder on both mom & son if they do not have access to support services. Even more so if he is a 2 or 3.

 

[GypsyMoth]

@GypsyMoth, you said that he had a diagnosis but it was recently rescinded. Was that recent enough that he can approach another counselor for a second opinion?

If he really is ASD, it will be harder on both mom & son if they do not have access to support services. Even more so if he is a 2 or 3.

Yeah, I don't know if it was rescinded so much as the state-appointed diagnostician didn't find evidence for it. (Me, dryly: he chose not to see what was right in front of him. I know I come off 'normal', his mom, maybe--to a point, but him, uh-uh. Everyone notices that he's different. In our small community, it kind of precedes him.)

The program he is in, I believe he's still on his school's IEP. (Did I get that right?) He's in his twenties but they focus on job training at this point and he's learning a trade.

I did get clarification on his diagnosis, it is Asberger's (before 2013). I think too much time has passed for a second opinion--they were dealing with his dad's death around that time so I think it probably fell by the wayside for that reason. The therapist should have avoided talking theory with him and asked life skills questions. Or asked him about poison ivy. I hear he once gave a three-hour lecture to his fellow classmates on everything there is to know about poison ivy--and would have kept on going, too, if a teacher hadn't stepped in.

She's seeking a second opinion right now about some of the medications he's been on and intends on getting him into some counseling to help him with some coping changes, but his diagnosis doesn't qualify him for SSI until it's updated to the current DSM rating--or so I understand it. I have a feeling she's thinking he won't need support services in the long run, but so far he has not been able to hold a job outside of his job training program. It is something that worries her.

 

[Crossbreed]

That IEP is important. It is prior evidence of his condition. Even if he proves ineligible for SSI, a positive diagnosis will help him to get or continue in voc rehab. (Before my diagnosis, our state employment service thought that I was just being obtuse. I felt like a failure, too.)

See my blog on locating an austism-competent counselor in the USA,
https://autlanders.blogspot.com/2019/07/finding-support-resources-in-usa.html

 

[Hypnalis]

@GypsyMoth

Just checking in for status:

Has your friend:
(a) Considered the aspects in which her own behavior is enabling (probably indirectly) her son's?
(b) Starting thinking about the possibility (fact IMO) that her son is (perhaps not consciously) "playing" her?

In case you're wondering - yes, those are nearly the same thing

Think about the permanent delays on doing simple things (IIRC it's washing clothes & showering):

In common with most children and young adults:
(1) He doesn't want to do those things. But nor do a lot of adults.
(2) He doesn't accurately balance the long-term "costs and benefits" of doing, or not doing, those things
(3) He defers starting on those activities, because of (1), and because he can

He only differs from 90% of males at his level of emotional maturity in that he never starts them.
This is normal behavior for much younger children, but at his age it's an issue.

My personal mental model for this is that's it's a kind of "negotiated blackmail". If he can get away with something he will do as he likes. BTW that particular terminology ("blackmail") only seems to work for me, so as a communication tool it's not much use, but it might resonate with another adult Aspie.

The problem is that your friend's son is unconsciously but almost completely indifferent to the consequences of his actions/inactions on his mother's feelings and for the negative influences he has on her life. You can't feel guilty when you don't understand you're behaving badly.

Of course there's no easy solution.
Pushing him out of the nest and hoping he'll fly only works for birds. And the kinds of simple sanctions that work with most annoying teenage boys (i.e. 99% of them can't be used in a case like this.

But inaction enables avoidant Aspies to wait much longer than necessary to enter "the real world". There's a significant downside to this (there are many examples here), so it should be addressed by society, his guardians, or both.

My suggestion remains "an adult conversation". For now though, I don't think it's useful for me to try to expand on that.

 

[Crossbreed]

That IEP is important. It is prior evidence of his condition.

@GypsyMoth,
Further reading on IEPs says that only ASD2s & 3s get IEPs.
ASD1s get 504 plans, instead.

(Your co-workers should be able to confirm this.)

His mom should re-present his case to autism-competent counselors and give them access to his IEP records.

(A disability attorney should be able to act on them, too.)