Meanings and intentions misunderstood

[wadorama]

I often fall into the trap of thinking that if I put something in writing, they'll surely read everything. But, alas, they skip over anything that would take time and effort to absorb. It's almost worse than speaking to them, because at least if you are face to face and are trying to get a point across, as a last resort, you can just keep repeating the same thing over and over until they finally have to acknowledge it. If you send them an email or some other form of written communication, it is so awkward to repeat something that has been ignored, because you are then worried that you will offend them by implying they were too stupid to read what you wrote the first time, which is, of course, a quite accurate assessment of the situation.

Sometimes I get more satisfaction out of talking to my cats; after all, they very rarely start talking about something completely unrelated or come up with some feeble illogical argument against what I was talking about.

oh blah blah blah and now to me. ;o)

I get that the adults are talking here, but are these communication mismatches really unique to NT versus non? The inclination to validate one's own ideas by selectively (or completely) ignoring those of others while waiting for the chance to speak seems universal to me. Are you saying that those on the spectrum are actually better at hiding this desire than those that aren't? I usually lean toward data gathering over being heard but not always. Call me a pacifist (guilty) but shades of gray perhaps? Admittedly that would make for a lamer conversation.

 

[Fitzo]

oh blah blah blah and now to me. ;o)

I get that the adults are talking here, but are these communication mismatches really unique to NT versus non? The inclination to validate one's own ideas by selectively (or completely) ignoring those of others while waiting for the chance to speak seems universal to me. Are you saying that those on the spectrum are actually better at hiding this desire than those that aren't? I usually lean toward data gathering over being heard but not always. Call me a pacifist (guilty) but shades of gray perhaps? Admittedly that would make for a lamer conversation.

I agree this is certainly not an NT versus non phenomenon.
When I started the thread I wasn't meaning to imply that it was. (There you go....misunderstood yet again!)
However I think that maybe Aspies try harder to understand and be understood for the simple reason we spend our lives being misunderstood and misunderstanding others.
When I was at Uni I studied communication and was horrified to learn that as little as 7% of what you say may
be understood by the other party.
That being the case it's hardly surprising there is constant misunderstanding.
It's one of the reasons I really dislike talking on the phone unless it's with someone I know very well. Without the visual clues like body language, facial expression, hand gestures etc. it can be a minefield of misunderstanding!

 

[the_tortoise]

I'm not sure whether other people have covered this topic, so apologies if they have.

Over the course if my Iife there have been many occasions where I have found it difficult to convey my message to others without misunderstanding.... sometimes with quite far reaching and catastrophic consequences.
Consequently I always try extra hard to be very clear with my language and sometimes use metaphors to further illustrate my meaning. Despite this people still seem to not get what I'm trying to say and go off on a completely different tangent of their own. I can't even describe how angry and frustrated this can make me, but continued to blame myself for not being clear enough or not picking up early enough that they weren't getting it.
I had yet another instance of this today.
In replaying in my mind what had been said, I came to the conclusion that I really had been quite clear, but somehow they still managed to go off track.
So my question is this.
Do you think people really hear (or read) what you're actually saying... or... do they ASSUME they know what you're trying to say so automatically stop actively listening and start thinking about what THEY'RE going to say?
Not that it will change anything of course, but I'm curious to know other people's thoughts on this.

Similar thing happens to me....the catastrophic consequences and all.....

The worst part of it, for me, is that by the time it becomes catastrophic, the misunderstanding has gone so long unnoticed and been brought forward into so many other things that it's often impossible to even unravel -- to figure out where the misunderstanding started, or what exactly the misunderstanding even is. (I see something has gone wrong in how I've been understood, that me and the other person are not on the same page -- possibly not even in the same book or the same section of the library -- and maybe I have a vague general sense of it but can't figure out the specifics).

I think that language always requires interpretation, that there is no such thing as perfect clarity in communication because of that .... meaning is often lost. I think meaning is lost more often between me and otherrs because I have some lingering language issues and also because my way of thinking is so different to theirs. (It's like with the theory of mind thing, the more different you are from someone the harder it is to understand their perspective.....if you're more different from the majority than most people, you'll have a harder time of it more often....actually I suppose it's linked up to the theory of mind thing, because for language to be effective requires shared understanding of what words mean, not just individually in the abstract but strung together and used in context.)

I think people often do listen to me and try to understand, and just don't succeed. They may be actively listening to everything, but they connect the wrong things to each other or their interpretations are just wildly incorrect. (I also do use words in strange ways sometimes and struggle with clarity and brevity....so in my case I think it's also because of this -- either partly or entirely, depending on the instance.)

Only sometimes do I think that people have basically decided what I'm thinking and going to say before even hearing me out -- or don't even care and just want to say something to me. (I don't count in this category the people that get impatient or misread me while trying to understand and interrupt me to finish my sentences -- incorrectly -- in an attempt to help or move the interaction along.....I put them in the first category of people who are listening and trying to understand.)

 

[Mia]

What I couldn't guarantee is how the shelter dog would respond or react.
(Not until I've observed and trained him anyway )

Perhaps my husband is right?
Perhaps my belief in my abilities and what I've learned to date in understanding specific dog behaviour and training is delivered as arrogance and not confidence.?

No, I agree with what you've indicated. The initial behavioral response of two dogs meeting in a stressful environment (like a shelter) is not indicative of long-term behavior. It shows only in it's response, perhaps curiosity and rarely dislike.

Add to that the noise and scents at the shelter, your own dog's nervousness from the travel and perhaps this meeting between two dogs might be the same as a dog sniffing another dog during a walk. Usually these initial reactions are short term, not suggestive of actual long-term behavior.

In a calmer environment, the results would be different. Territorial behavior, whether related to family members, space, toys, food, would eventually be shown with the shelter animal. When it's more comfortable and at ease. And that takes a great deal of time depending on the animal.

You were not being arrogant Gracey, you're obviously someone who understands the behavior. Usually when I'm called arrogant, it's as a result of another person's insecurity and/or lack of any real experience or information in these matters.

 

[Fitzo]

No, I agree with what you've indicated. The initial behavioral response of two dogs meeting in a stressful environment (like a shelter) is not indicative of long-term behavior. It shows only in it's response, perhaps intense curiosity and sometimes intense dislike.

Add to that the noise and scents at the shelter, your own dog's nervousness from the travel and perhaps this meeting between two dogs might be the same as a dog sniffing another dog during a walk. Usually these initial reactions are short term, not suggestive of actual long-term behavior.

In a calmer environment, the results would be different. Territorial behavior, whether related to family members, space, toys, food, would eventually be shown with the shelter animal. When it's more comfortable and at ease. And that takes a great deal of time depending on the animal.

You were not being arrogant Gracey, you're obviously someone who understands the behavior. Usually when I'm called arrogant, it's as a result of another person's insecurity and/or lack of any real experience or information in these matters.

I'm really not interested in getting into an argument here but people who spend their time around many different dogs a lot of the time tend to be a bit better at spotting behavior than people who mostly only spend time with their own.
Second whenever we had a meet up with potential new pack mates we took them to a quiet, separate area where there were not noises, other people or similar distractions. The meeting was done in stages over a period of 15 to 20 minutes and while not an infallible system is the best available under the circumstances. This procedure is followed to try and minimize any potential tensions between the two dogs, not only for the adoptee but also the original dog. As I've already mentioned a lot of these dogs have already had a tough life and the shelter's priority is to avoid further suffering.
And just to be absolutely clear I never said anyone was arrogant. That was the opinion of the man who lives with her.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

I'm really not interested in getting into an argument here but people who spend their time around many different dogs a lot of the time tend to be a bit better at spotting behavior than people who mostly only spend time with their own.
Second whenever we had a meet up with potential new pack mates we took them to a quiet, separate area where there were not noises, other people or similar distractions. The meeting was done in stages over a period of 15 to 20 minutes and while not an infallible system is the best available under the circumstances. This procedure is followed to try and minimize any potential tensions between the two dogs, not only for the adoptee but also the original dog. As I've already mentioned a lot of these dogs have already had a tough life and the shelter's priority is to avoid further suffering.
And just to absolutely clear I never said anyone was arrogant. That was the opinion of the man who lives with her.

Percy the fishmonger is arrogant, which is why we don't go there, did I tell you...

 

[Mia]

And just to absolutely clear I never said anyone was arrogant.

I realize that it was not you who mentioned arrogance.

Still tend to disagree with your premise. I spot behavior extremely well in dogs, with a lifetime of experience at it. I've worked at shelters and taken care of many different kinds of dogs as well, including fostering.

It may seem as if that initial meeting is an indicator, but it's not really. Two dogs meeting in a neutral place full of the scent of others, will not be an indicator of long-term behavior. It is a meeting between two dogs along with expectant humans, somewhat controlling the situation. The dogs themselves know this and they know what to do.

It's the behavior that occurs when the dog realizes that they have a home, and what's expected of them. Dogs who have been abused by others, will often 'hold off' with any extreme behavior, but when threatened in some 'familiar' way they will overreact out of fear and even habit. To protect themselves, they may attack another companion animal. Or become aggressive with humans, or cower in fear, or shake or hide. This kind of reaction will occur indiscriminately, in a stressful or new situation or place, or when the sofa is moved. When the animal is more relaxed and feeling better it may occur then, as it will have triggers yet unknown.

It's rarely something that can be observed in the visits you describe. Yet I realize that the shelter has little choice, they have to re-home the animals, as there is always another animal who may need the space. Think that what you do is a good thing, but it some cases it simply not adequate for some abused animals. When the behavior shows up later.

 

[OlLiE]

you: the thought of your message > your own history > your choice of words > speaking the words
the listener: hears words > his own history > his interpretation of your words > emotional deviation from the rational content

so there are two points when both party's 'essence' as a person colours the delivery and reception of the words used to transmit the original message

i've learned that it's not only a question of being logically correct in your message,
you have to also be aware of how your own personality/history colours your choice of words,
and what the hangups are of the person you are talking to and what your choice of words may do to taint his understanding of your words by emotion

it's exhausting, no guarantee of succes,
i just avoid talking to people