Messiah

[Gift2humanity]

There's a difference between someone saying - 'I am that' and someone saying - 'I am open to becoming that which God 1 me to be'. Big differen ce.

I probably should add this though...

Those words from that book, the story that has been with us for so long, having had things removed, altered, changed, often to fit the times people were living in. Many things left out that could have been put back. The Gnostic Gospels, for example. And just like in my ancestral religion, which is all about tradition and the Testament is older, while it has had its use, and was of its time, the fact that it cannot be easily brought into the modern world says a lot about those who still adhere to it so strongly.

Whether I need to ‘be careful’, or anyone else does, isn't really the point of this thread. I'm just a bloke telling you about my experience, so that you might have some idea of things that are going on outside of yours.

And it is for this reason, that while I would never invalidate the truth contained within those books, I don't ascribe to them. When the book is quoted to me as being words I should consider, I just see old English. The fact that people still use ‘ye’ and ‘thou’ and other old words is meant to give it authority. And while there are many who follower the book, many have turned away. Too many negative things have happened during the course of our history in its name. As far as I'm concerned it’s time to close the book. Connect with God directly. No intermediary of any kind is required. No Messiah in sandals on a donkey is coming to save us. The story is designed to inspire us, as all good teachings are. For things to change there has to be something new. A new vibration. Attempting to see something new through the lens of the old will not make sense and cause people to fall back on what they already think to be true.

Except it isn't really true. It is still just belief. It is an interpretation of the words put there by whoever wrote them. They are designed to keep us in line. To control us. To ensure compliance and remain in congregation, so that the church remains wealthy and powerful. We can see how wealthy just by looking at where the Pope lives. We can see the power just by looking at the pain and suffering, the corruption and paedophilia, that has taken place in its name.

So when somebody quotes scripture from something that is corrupted, used by those in authority to control and keep people down, interfere with their natural way, and through fear encourage them to believe else they go to hell, I don’t feel it.

I don't expect people of the book to accept anything that the book doesn't allow them to. Unfortunately that keeps them in the old vibration, and they are partly responsible for holding us back.

There are many waiting for the Messiah, not realising that their idea actually interferes with its realisation for them. Because Messiah is here – where else would it be? And they don't realise it because they are expecting it to look a certain way. The messianic Jews are a big part of this. I could tell you a story about what they were doing with some of the children up in those camps in the Catskills in order to enhance and prepare them for what they thought would encourage Messiah to arrive. A corruption of something they have held onto for such a long time because they cannot let go of the fact that it is a belief and their idea is not intrinsically true.

There's a difference between someone saying - 'I am that' and someone saying - 'I am open to becoming that which God 1 me to be'. Big difference

I see what you mean

I agree the Bible has been messed about with. I believe that There is a lot of dogma in the Christianity that we know today. All of the mystical Still of could have been altered, Jesus would not be very happy with Christianity the way it is taught it is not maths he was meant to teach.

you cannot talk to some Christians and Catholics About deeper truths which Jesus is the time to convey, because they get quite shirty.

A few years ago I came across a Hindu book called the second coming of Christ I didn’t make it through because I’ve got a short attention span but it wasn’t about Jesus coming back to save us from our sins it was about you say find in the Christ within.

 

[Gift2humanity]

Simonsays i will put it this way. I know full well how mankind has used the Bible teachings to their own advantages. Many examples of that throughout history. I saw what they did during the Crusades and Dark Ages. Just how far the Catholic Church went during that time with greed and power. Yes, the Pope is another sign of that.
As we're the' Pharisees and other groups in their time. The Bible itself speaks of such things. It is not blind too it. Jesus many times over confronted them over their corruption and false teachings. Study closely his story and you come to understand why he was born where he was. In the time he was. But, I say this to you. Test the words of the Bible "yourself" privately.
Read it and then decide. As for this buisness of Messiah and getting closer to God. It "cannot" be done with out Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. No more Messiahs are coming. Jesus told others the same in his time on Earth as well.
It takes faith Simonsays. Not an easy thing by any means. I have faith the words are true as written. And that they hold truth even now. Regardless of our "modern" times. Little has changed.

The only crisis that is coming is when we discover the Christ inside of us that was Jesus message.

 

[Gift2humanity]

Not a challenge, a crucial element allowing the conclusion of the story to play out as it needed to. Jesus would've seen its importance.

Like a lesson or an experience he needed to have.

 

[SimonSays]

Like an experience he needed to have.

Yes. Had Jesus reached old age and died peacefully in his sleep. It would be hard to conclude he died for us. But, if he is betrayed, mistreated, put to death in an excruciating way, it can be seen that way. Someone had to make that happen. Judas played his part. Jesus knew the prophesies.

 

[Gift2humanity]

Yes. Had Jesus reached old age and died peacefully in his sleep. It would be hard to conclude he died for us. But, if he is betrayed, mistreated, put to death in an excruciating way, it can be seen that way. Someone had to make that happen. Judas played his part. Jesus knew the prophesies.

Hi @SimonSays
I do not understand this part of the Bible where Christian say Jesus died to save us from our sins.
I know the Christians believe this. Maybe it is a metaphor that Jesus is us and we, or. Karma balance out our sins as Jesus mentions this in his gospels.

 

[SimonSays]

Hi @SimonSays
I do not understand this part of the Bible where Christian say Jesus died to save us from our sins.
I know the Christians believe this. Maybe it is a metaphor that Jesus is us and we, or. Karma balance out our sins as Jesus mentions this in his gospels.

Probably better answered by a Christian. I only mention it to explain the role of Judas. Not really important to the thread,

 

[Gift2humanity]

Probably better answered by a Christian. I only mention it to explain the role of Judas. Not really important to the thread,

The Christians give a wrong version of what Jesus tried to teach.
I think it is a metaphor that Jesus was trying to teachers. I don’t know what that metaphor is.

 

[Wolfsage]

Hi @SimonSays
I do not understand this part of the Bible where Christian say Jesus died to save us from our sins.
I know the Christians believe this. Maybe it is a metaphor that Jesus is us and we, or. Karma balance out our sins as Jesus mentions this in his gospels.

As it is stated. Jesus Christ died for our sins. Then rose from the dead three days later. As he said he would. It was spoken in the prophecys of the old testament. This was done to save us from our sins. It was the only way.

 

[Wolfsage]

Right. But you can't test things in this area. You just believe it because you believe the parts you can and have tested.

Not entirely true. There are ways to test it. As for the second part. I have reason to believe beyond what I have tested. I'm a realist Simonsays. A cynical realist. Faith does not come easily to me. But, I have seen enough and know enough to believe what is written within the Bible is the truth. As it is stated. Even the parts that don't seem possible. Or seem too fantastic to be real.

 

[Gift2humanity]

As it is stated. Jesus Christ died for our sins. Then rose from the dead three days later. As he said he would. It was spoken in the prophecys of the old testament. This was done to save us from our sins. It was the only way.

This is all symbolic. We are God. If Jesus is with the King James Bible who would be horrified. What Jesus meant by saving us from our sins is that we will find the Christ within there is no second coming. The second coming is us finding the Christ within.We pay for our sins with karmic debt. The Bible has been corrupted and alters over the years. It is a metaphor the gospels were a metaphor. We judge ourselves God is within us. Jesus travels and learnt from the great seers and sages in the middle and the far east. He was very humble in that he knew that he had a lot to learn and to pass this on and for his disciples to pass it on.

 

[Wolfsage]

This is all symbolic. We are God. If Jesus is with the King James Bible who would be horrified. What Jesus meant by saving us from our sins is that we will find the Christ within there is no second coming. The second coming is us finding the Christ within.We pay for our sins with karmic debt. The Bible has been corrupted and alters over the years. It is a metaphor the gospels were a metaphor. We judge ourselves God is within us. Jesus travels and learnt from the great seers and sages in the middle and the far east. He was very humble in that he knew that he had a lot to learn and to pass this on and for his disciples to pass it on.

No, it isn't symbolic. And we are "not" God. Read the book of Job . We have the potential to be the "sons" of God.
The gospel speaks the truth. The Bible is truth. A second coming will occur.
As for corruption. I'm well aware of what mankind can do. So I tested and learned what I could. It's words stood up to every test. "Test" the words yourself. Read it fully. But, learn it's truth in life.

 

[SimonSays]

And we are "not" God.

What else could we be? Unless you think God is somehow separate from his own creation?
This IS God. There is nothing that is not God. God is all that is. All is One.

We may not be AWARE we are God, because we are ignorant of God. We are a facet, so that through us God experiences himself as if he were not God, as we make our way to him. But we are still God. And by connecting to 'christ-consciousness/holy spirit' we know it.

A second coming will occur.

Just words. What do they mean if not what I've been talking about?

Just believing/interpreting words in a book doesn't make it true. We can only know ourselves through experience.

 

[Wolfsage]

What else could we be? Unless you think God is somehow separate from his own creation?
This IS God. There is nothing that is not God. God is all that is. All is One.

He is and he isn't. The answer is complicated. But, "we" are not God. The book of Job makes that clear.

Just words. What do they mean if not what I've been talking about?

Just believing/interpreting words in a book doesn't make it true. We can only know ourselves through experience.

Yet, that is part of having faith. God and Jesus both followed the words laid down in scripture to the letter.
Experience counts for some of it. But, mostly it's faith. A second coming will occur as it is written.
If you find this hard to believe. Consider. Atomic weapons were mythical a hundred years ago. Someone had faith in the Science and kept working to make it a reality. In short they had faith in something that didn't exist and science hadn't proven.
This internet didn't exist twenty five years ago. Someone believed it was possible. Until it was proven by Science. Fiction became reality because someone believed it could.

 

[SimonSays]

But, "we" are not God.

That's where we differ.

 

[SimonSays]

God and Jesus both followed the words laid down in scripture to the letter

God followed the words laid down in scripture? That doesn't make sense.

But, mostly it's faith.

That is true. If you believe completely, it will feel real for you.

A second coming will occur as it is written.

How do you know? Because it is written? It is also written...“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die". Do you think this ought to happen?

What about..."If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death". Will you put these people to death? After all, you must believe it is right to as every word is true.

Or maybe you don't believe these particular things. Which means you can pick and choose the bits you follow and those you decide not to. Right?

Hmmm...

 

[SimonSays]

@Wolfsage

I don't mean to pick on you, as I do respect someone who genuinely has faith. I'm certainly not trying to make you 'see reason'. Faith is beyond reason. But I must point out certain things, because you make certain statements. I get it, as this is your faith, and I really appreciate you responding at all, especially as few others have.

There are many things in the new testament that are good and right and true. And the bible has done its job to keep a lot of people on the path, but just like with my own ancestral religion, whose traditions are still practiced just like they were, and who hold just as tightly to them lest they should cause a major change, don't realise that their very rigidity stops things from evolving in a way that would benefit the faith not destroy it. It is the fear of losing what they have that keeps them from realising this. And the world remains ever in conflict, as brothers of the book grow up hating rather than loving.

Judaism brought the law
Christianity the love
Islam reveals the surrender

This trinity can unite into one complete faith. All is one. Something new will come from that. It is time.

 

[Gift2humanity]

That's where we differ.

@Wolfsage
God is consciousness-electromagnetic electrical energy=everything.
Things just look, feel, sound different because they vibrate/oscilate at different frequencies.
Sciencey, but this helped me bridge that mysterious gap between science and religion and call it spirituality, along with good old mathematics, to quote the intro of a pst-trance track "mathematics is the language of the universe" just look at how mathematically the lengths of our bones calculate into each other, the mathematical structure of plants, minerals and rocks, all mathematical.
All creation which is god, yet at the same time, created by god, who is us, when we create art pieces, repair broken things.
He/She/It can still be prayed to, still worshipped, nothing to stop people going to serene churches to sit and pray and be with Him and merge with him if they are vibrating at a high enough frequency.

 

[Gift2humanity]

@SimonSaysGod followed the words laid down in scripture? That doesn't make sense.
Scripture was written a few thousand years ago, starting with Genesis, God is the cosmos, has always been, no beginning and no end, just like a circle or figure 8 on it's side.
That is true. If you believe completely, it will feel real for you.
I have beliefs not everyone shares/agrees with that feel real (right now) for me, however I do not know all there is to know, and must exercise humility if someone tells me something I do not yet know, yet makes sense to me.
How do you know? Because it is written? It is also written...“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die". Do you think this ought to happen?
I believe, and no one has to agree with this, that the Second Coming of Christ does not mean Jesus will walk this earth again. What Yogananda told me when I had the attention span to read that part of his book "The Second Coming of Christ" was that it means to find the Christ Consciousness inside of us, as an individual, that is when Christ will come again, as and when we each find that state of mind. Although Yogananda was a Hindu, yet another Religion, (I'm not religious) it has scientific and mathematical and earthly info that makes sense to me, plus I like the fact that the Hindus welcome all creeds and religions into their temples, whereas Christians would not be so keen to see a Hindu in their churches.
What about..."If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death". Will you put these people to death? After all, you must believe it is right to as every word is true.
Funny, co-incidence (even though I am not convinced there is such a thing as a co-incidence) just the other night, I had a Facebook conversation about this or a similar bible quote. (sorry I cannot remember the verse or bible book) and I interpreted it to mean homosexuality. To me, intimate sexual relationships are about love, and if there is pure love on both sides, it does not matter to me if the relationship is homosexual or heterosexual. The Catholics seemed to think it "un-natural". Homosexuals cannot pro-create, but they CAN have loving respectful relationships. I find Bible scripture harder to read than Hindu Scripture, so I am sorry if I have totally got the wrong end of the stick.
Or maybe you don't believe these particular things. Which means you can pick and choose the bits you follow and those you decide not to. Right?

Hmmm...
I hope you both @Wolfsage and @SimonSays don't mind me chiming in with my bit. I like these discussions, maybe I can learn from them.

 

[Gift2humanity]

Yes. Had Jesus reached old age and died peacefully in his sleep. It would be hard to conclude he died for us. But, if he is betrayed, mistreated, put to death in an excruciating way, it can be seen that way. Someone had to make that happen. Judas played his part. Jesus knew the prophesies.

@SimonSays
I am not convinced Jesus "rose from the dead" I am no mythologist, as I did not grok the symbolism that child readers automatically grok when they read folktales and fairytales.
I think there was some allegory in the "Jesus saved us from our sins" I think, possibly, that this was an allegory to us to say that we can save ourselves from our sins by right action, though and deed.
Jesus came back from his travels (which no one taught me about in Catholic school, they told me he helped his Dad Joseph, he was too special for that) and spread the word which he learnt from people he considered wiser than he.
He had the intuition and discernment to go to the right places, to see the right people, the humility to learn and he came back to Galilee to spread the word, which was when the persecution and mockery and ultimate betrayal and crucifixion happened. He was prepared to be killed in order to share these gifts he learnt from ancient seers and sages. Then lastly, he had the maturity to say "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when nailed to the cross.
Another odd couple of facts, sort of relevant, Jesus' birth 25th December is weirdly close to Winter Solstice, and Easter is always falls on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the Spring equinox (had to cheat and get the Easter info from google, but I knew it had some bearing on the Spring Equinox) That is to say, these special days follow nature, which is God, Creation.

 

[Gift2humanity]

@SimonSays
Hope you don't mind my sixpence worth.
I have a Christian friend, we have to agree to disagree on many things, lest we go round in circles which neither of us want and we both respect that each have differing views, which is a shame as I used to jive with his old views before he became a Christian. I sound anti-Christian, I just feel it can be dogmatic in places but feel uncomfortable saying that to him as his faith is a comfort and who am I to "put rocks and thorns into his bed".

Faith is beyond reason.

Although I lost my faith and regained it on illicit substances while alone in my home, science and maths helped me strengthen my faith after taking these substances and with the mathematical instruction of taking fungal medicine (after a naughty chemical)
I'll have to re-write this fantasy novel I tore up during a meltdown some time, written spontaneously with a bearded purple haired man called Zodor in. I won't bore you here.
It was about faith though, I cannot remember what clicked so I got it back, normal waking consciousness just didn't cut it for me, sadly, but I still have some faith and could do with more.

But I must point out certain things, because you make certain statements. I get it, as this is your faith, and I really appreciate you responding at all, especially as few others have.

I would love to be able to read the bible like my Christian friend (our interpretation would be different, I probably would get stuck on the flowery language) and think as deeply as you, I only come on here to explore my own angle on it and possibly learn where I go wrong, or new things that haven't occurred to me, and of course to polish my ego and share what I know, just in the small chance that it teaches just one person.

There are many things in the new testament that are good and right and true.

From what I read about the gospels, Yogis and others have helped me make sense of bits of them I never would have in my 20's, 30's 40's.

And the bible has done its job to keep a lot of people on the path, but just like with my own ancestral religion, whose traditions are still practiced just like they were, and who hold just as tightly to them lest they should cause a major change, don't realise that their very rigidity stops things from evolving in a way that would benefit the faith not destroy it. It is the fear of losing what they have that keeps them from realising this. And the world remains ever in conflict, as brothers of the book grow up hating rather than loving.

Yeah, Northern Ireland troubles, what would Jesus think of those, not to mention the suicide toll from them which was greater than the death toll.
Same with Islam. Middle East Oil etc, Israel, Mossad and so on. I'm not well up on world politics but that's the bones of the trouble caused through religions fighting against each other.

Judaism brought the law
Christianity the love
Islam reveals the surrender

I never heard this, where is it from? something more for more to learn.

This trinity can unite into one complete faith. All is one. Something new will come from that. It is time.

I see the trinity in Christian terms, only because I have grown up catholic and only read on what Swami's and Yogi's and Levi Dowling wrote in his aquarian gospel, so I have much to learn.