Misery Log

[Levitat0r]

Most of my church is quite nerdy and I suspect a few of being ASD. We play video games, go to the bar, and play Cards Against Humanity.

Our church's personality would "exclude" someone who is seeking to dress up, play classical music, and wanting to be formal in order to honor God. That is precisely why multiple churches exist; Paul writes of this in Romans 14.

The challenge in finding a church to experience fellowship in is the same challenge as finding any group of NTs to experience friendship in. Very difficult for ASD. But not impossible.

I actually got into TWD through a church, and of course, everything man does is a mixed bag, but I ultimately found the show to have strong connections with faith.

* "Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60
* "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" John 15:13
* Father Gabriel
* Pretty much all of Revelation

 

[Fino]

A church that excludes anyone is a church living in sin.

 

[Levitat0r]

Sadly, there are people who use others in this manner. I read of a story lately where a lady kept 3 or 4 people hostages and kept their passports, and made them do house chores. Human trafficking does happen. Could the mother be doing this to her daughter? It's a possibility, yes. Just because l don't want to read about it, doesn't mean that it isn't happening. Sadly, there are abusive people everywhere.

She's an abusive control freak who silences her half-mute daughter for discussing music in public, and then threatens people with arrest because her daughter is too disabled to have a mind of her own, yet she's not too disabled to labor daily as her mother's housekeeper. That's not right, and I took the issue to the church and to the authorities, and they can decide whether to correct the parents, or whether there is someone better suited to her care. I hate the idea that there might simply be nobody better to look after her, but it's not my wheelhouse. I did my best, and took the issue to those who ought to be dedicated to it.

 

[Levitat0r]

I'm sorry that churches have been doing this. Ironically, one of the most judgmental groups of people is likely Christians, yet they are perhaps the only group that believes we have been specifically instructed GOD by Himself to not be judgmental. Shame on us.

Calling yourself a Christian does not make you an actual Christian, and a doctor should not be judged for being surrounded by the sick.

'And their scribes and the Pharisees complained against His disciples, saying, “Why do You eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” "Jesus answered and said to them, 'Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.'''
Luke 5:30-31

 

[The Pandector]

@Levitator - It's very bad form to accuse people at a church of being abusive to their children. You're creeping people out and scaring them when you do that. Everyone at church knows that they are sinners and your emotional outbursts about specific people and what you deem to be their specific sins is out of line. Church members are not supposed to judge one another as the Bible makes perfectly clear. They pray for others.

There have been numerous church shootings in the US and churches rightfully are on full alert to avoid it from happening to them. I'm not very religious but I do respect churchgoers' right to worship in peace, without unstable, emotional outbursts from someone who just showed up for a service.

Next time, bring your own guitar. And bear in mind that people attend church to worship God, not to deal with some stranger who wants to use someone else's guitar to play non-secular music at the service.

Yeah. I’ve spent many thousands of hours on or around church stages, even sat in with the musicians several times. Because I am naturally security conscious and also was in leadership, I kept an eye around.

I don’t remember anyone ever grabbing an instrument. In my experience, those instruments are expensive and don’t belong to the church. My instrument was e-drums, fairly indestructible but for the cables, but I would not have allowed a stranger to sit at my kit, certainly not during a meeting, and would have found it somewhere between rude and confrontational if the person persisted after being rebuffed.

Now, people who grab other people’s musical instruments without first getting permission from the owner are liable to get noticed, especially if they are persistent after being schooled in the local etiquette.

As an elder, it would have fallen to me to respond to someone playing non-worship music while congregants were still about. Our worship services were carefully arranged to focus the mind on the Lord, not on a common appreciation of beautiful music. Worship leaders are usually very carefully selected for their ability to keep the music focused, not so much on their ability to enjoy fellowship with roaming musicians.

Be aware that many parents of youthful daughters are constantly vigilant on their behalf. If someone approaches their daughter, they will take a protective stance, at least partly because God teaches them to do so. If all the parent knows of the stranger is that they grabbed a guitar, started playing music and had to be stopped, they are more likely to take a preemptive approach.

I’d point out this. You said you’ve had three very brief encounters with this young lady. She told you she cleans the family home. Unless there’s a lot you didn’t tell us about those conversations, it’s more than a mere leap to accuse her parents of slave labor. It would appear that you know nothing of those people.

If the guy that grabbed the guitar is the same guy accusing a congregant of slave labor, you can expect church leadership to take a defensive position.

What music you personally find appropriate at a church meeting doesn’t matter. Your personal wish to play someone else’s instrument is irrelevant. Your opinion of how that woman’s family divvies out household chores is entirely irrelevant.

While open to the public, church buildings aren’t publicly owned. Congregations are like extended families, and when you walk into that building you are a guest in their home. I submit that, if you walk into your average church and act like a respectful guest, you will garner a much more pleasant reception.

 

[Aspychata]

You can always go to a cafe, and ask if you can play guitar? I saw a lot of performers on Hollywood Blvd. That was a crowded street of locals, tourists, homeless people, and performers. Just because she said she cleans doesn't mean she is overworked, she may just hate to clean.

 

[The Pandector]

A church that excludes anyone is a church living in sin.

A quick read of the New Testament says this is absolutely untrue. In fact, under certain circumstances, excluding a person is demanded of the congregation. To not exclude that person is the sin. “A little leaven leavens the whole loaf.” Solid doctrine, Old and New Testaments.

Having said that, what a pity if they can’t see past sin or confusion to minister to a hurting and lonely person. Had I been at OP’s meeting, I like to think he and I would have been off to the side, having an enjoyable conversation about music and family life, so his next attendance would have been more enjoyable for everyone. And I’d probably be wondering about a mother in our midst dragging a visitor outside for a dressing down.

But, when the loaf is being leavened, it is not within leadership’s discretion to leave the offender in the group. Congregants are instructed to not even eat a meal with that person. FYI, the ultimate purpose is to bring about repentance and then reconciliation.

Tough love, Bible-style.

 

[Fino]

A quick read of the New Testament says this is absolutely untrue. In fact, under certain circumstances, excluding a person is demanded of the congregation. To not exclude that person is the sin. “A little leaven leavens the whole loaf.” Solid doctrine, Old and New Testaments.

Having said that, what a pity if they can’t see past sin or confusion to minister to a hurting and lonely person. Had I been at OP’s meeting, I like to think he and I would have been off to the side, having an enjoyable conversation about music and family life, so his next attendance would have been more enjoyable for everyone. And I’d probably be wondering about a mother in our midst dragging a visitor outside for a dressing down.

But, when the loaf is being leavened, it is not within leadership’s discretion to leave the offender in the group. Congregants are instructed to not even eat a meal with that person. FYI, the ultimate purpose is to bring about repentance and then reconciliation.

Tough love, Bible-style.

I really meant exclusion based on the reasons provided in this thread, not murdering the pastor.

But why did your post suddenly become so much longer when I quoted it?

 

[Levitat0r]

Yeah. I’ve spent many thousands of hours on or around church stages, even sat in with the musicians several times. Because I am naturally security conscious and also was in leadership, I kept an eye around.

I don’t remember anyone ever grabbing an instrument. In my experience, those instruments are expensive and don’t belong to the church. My instrument was e-drums, fairly indestructible but for the cables, but I would not have allowed a stranger to sit at my kit, certainly not during a meeting, and would have found it somewhere between rude and confrontational if the person persisted after being rebuffed.

Now, people who grab other people’s musical instruments without first getting permission from the owner are liable to get noticed, especially if they are persistent after being schooled in the local etiquette.

As an elder, it would have fallen to me to respond to someone playing non-worship music while congregants were still about. Our worship services were carefully arranged to focus the mind on the Lord, not on a common appreciation of beautiful music. Worship leaders are usually very carefully selected for their ability to keep the music focused, not so much on their ability to enjoy fellowship with roaming musicians.

Be aware that many parents of youthful daughters are constantly vigilant on their behalf. If someone approaches their daughter, they will take a protective stance, at least partly because God teaches them to do so. If all the parent knows of the stranger is that they grabbed a guitar, started playing music and had to be stopped, they are more likely to take a preemptive approach.

I’d point out this. You said you’ve had three very brief encounters with this young lady. She told you she cleans the family home. Unless there’s a lot you didn’t tell us about those conversations, it’s more than a mere leap to accuse her parents of slave labor. It would appear that you know nothing of those people.

If the guy that grabbed the guitar is the same guy accusing a congregant of slave labor, you can expect church leadership to take a defensive position.

What music you personally find appropriate at a church meeting doesn’t matter. Your personal wish to play someone else’s instrument is irrelevant. Your opinion of how that woman’s family divvies out household chores is entirely irrelevant.

While open to the public, church buildings aren’t publicly owned. Congregations are like extended families, and when you walk into that building you are a guest in their home. I submit that, if you walk into your average church and act like a respectful guest, you will garner a much more pleasant reception.

I already explained to you what happened and you seem preoccupied with your own version of events, and what happens under alternate circumstances contrary to what I told you. I met that girl previously, and she could not even stop to talk because her parents had sent her out onto the street on foot running financial errands as a courier, and were pressuring her to return immediately. They use that poor woman to clean, they send her into the world alone, as a bank courier, and then they hypocritically claim she's too delicate to converse with. They use her, and they treat her like property.

 

[Levitat0r]

Have you considered that she told you that so she could end the conservation quickly and leave?

Nope, because we had a pleasant time, she welcomed to get a hand, since she was missing one, and then suddenly she had to hurry off because her parents are control freaks, as is corroborated by basically every further detail given; like how they won't let her discuss music, they use her to run bank deposits, they use her as a housekeeper, and they threaten to call the police against people the second time they witness them to speak to her. You're not serious, are you?

 

[Masked Man]

Nope, because we had a pleasant time, she welcomed to get a hand, since she was missing one, and then suddenly she had to hurry off because her parents are control freaks, as is corroborated by basically every further detail given; like how they won't let her discuss music, they use her to run bank deposits, they use her as a housekeeper, and they threaten to call the police against people the second time they witness them to speak to her. You're not serious, are you?

I think, like many NDs, you have a tenuous grasp on reality, miss cues and fill in the blanks with information that is incorrect.

 

[Levitat0r]

I think, like many NDs, you have a tenuous grasp on reality, miss cues and fill in the blanks with information that is incorrect.

I don't have a tenuous grasp of reality because I ran a lot of IT for an international electronics goods operation for around a decade. You're thinking of schizophrenics, not that there's any shortage of them.

 

[The Pandector]

I really meant exclusion based on the reasons provided in this thread, not murdering the pastor.

But why did your post suddenly become so much longer when I quoted it?

Probably because I made the post and then realized it needed more. This happened within seconds of my initial posting and I was not aware you had quoted it. Since I still haven’t read your response, I will do that now.

 

[The Pandector]

I really meant exclusion based on the reasons provided in this thread, not murdering the pastor.

But why did your post suddenly become so much longer when I quoted it?

Okay, no revelation there.

Reread your post, which makes no hint of limiting your flat statement to particular types of reasons. Not trying to pick a scuffle here, but it was a flat assertion of fact, but very incorrect.

Just FYI, murdering church personnel would qualify for disfellowship, but only if there were no repentance or remorse. But the scriptural example is sadly much more common; living in sexual sin with his father’s ex wife.

 

[Levitat0r]

The point is not that I can't find a place to play guitar. The point is that you go to church to connect with people spiritually, however you are able, but they are unfriendly and they are prejudging you.

 

[Levitat0r]

I really meant exclusion based on the reasons provided in this thread, not murdering the pastor.

But why did your post suddenly become so much longer when I quoted it?

I don't know where anyone said anything about murdering the pastor, and maybe it was subsequently deleted or edited out. There was a previous reference to church shootings, as well, which should highlight the manner of hostility and bullying there is in the world; for someone to say that they were mistreated, and for a support forum, of all places, to repeatedly begin imposing the topic of killing and violence. It's a very sad world we live in, but luckily it convicts itself with its own behavior, to anyone who is looking.

 

[The Pandector]

The point is not that I can't find a place to play guitar. The point is that you go to church to connect with people spiritually, however you are able, but they are unfriendly and they are prejudging you.

Again, you attribute their response to unfriendliness and judgmentalism. Maybe you can look at your behavior from the eyes of people who have responsibilities in those areas; that is why I went to the trouble of laying it out for you from an elder, pastor or congregant point of view.

Consider: You take your daughter to church, where a stranger picks up a musician’s instrument and begins playing a song you don’t recognize as worship music. The people in charge have to provide correction, which the stranger is not quick to accept. Then this stranger starts talking to your daughter about music, upon which subject the stranger has already made themselves suspect. Are you surprised the parent objected? Because, I am not.

You say you just want to be friendly. Churches usually like that. But, like I try to communicate, people are not likely to be friendly to someone who comes into their house of worship with the attitude that they get a vote on that community’s rules and standards. Maybe after a few years of attending, the people who are responsible for those matters will begin to trust your vision of what a friendly church looks like. In the meantime, it’s usually best practice to climb down off your horse before entering the building.

You may think this is a judgmental or cruel post, but in fact these are words you need to take to heart if you really do want to find community in a church. As a general rule of friendliness, when you enter a new friend’s house, you watch and listen for house rules; respecting them will be a key to your acceptance going forward.

 

[Fino]

I don't know where anyone said anything about murdering the pastor, and maybe it was subsequently deleted or edited out. There was a previous reference to church shootings, as well, which should highlight the manner of hostility and bullying there is in the world; for someone to say that they were mistreated, and for a support forum, of all places, to repeatedly begin imposing the topic of killing and violence. It's a very sad world we live in, but luckily it convicts itself with its own behavior, to anyone who is looking.

No, I wasn't encouraging violence in any way. It was a response to him saying that it's not true that all people should be accepted. I said I agree that in some cases a person would be removed from the church and gave an example.

 

[Mary Terry]

Try reading what I wrote again, and note that I only began yelling after they humiliated me and threatened me first, and began converging on me in a group of three as if I were Emmett Till. From there, you bring church shootings into the issue, and at that point I think we can close the discussion with the question of which devil that group worships, (when the Bible requires kindness to strangers), and what you have in common with them.

You are totally missing the point. You are creeping people out. When they ask you to leave, then LEAVE. Don't start arguing with them. Don't start accusing them of abusing their disabled children. If you genuinely think that a woman whom you have seen three times is being abused, then report it to law enforcement or whatever branch of the Mexican government deals with abuse of vulnerable adults. Don't attempt to commandeer someone else's musical instrument and become antagonistic when they refuse.

In the USA, public shootings and massacres are an all too frequent situation which urgently need to be discussed, highlighted, and prevented. This topic is relevant to the perceptions of the churchgoers, particularly in the context of your behavior at the church.

 

[Mary Terry]

The point is not that I can't find a place to play guitar. The point is that you go to church to connect with people spiritually, however you are able, but they are unfriendly and they are prejudging you.

Street musicians are common in Mexico. Go sit in the plaza and play your music.