ND-ND marriage, anything I have not tried?

[Stuttermabolur]

I think it is possible that you are just not compatible. I think you have already put a lot of patience and work into this while he isn't. Whether it's innate or whether he chooses not to ultimately doesn't matter. He doesn't see a problem while you do, and that's ultimately the reason he isn't changing his behaviour I suspect. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I doubt things will get "better" for you if you have already tried everything and he doesn't see a problem.

 

[yogabanana]

Maybe you are right @Neonatal RRT
I have thought all this time the issue is him not "grokking" the situation in a way he can make sense of it.
He relates a lot to Hephaestus, misfit underappreciated that understands machines better than people.

I have thought that he does not get it, or gets overwhelmed and can't remember what he's been taught, and then has too much defensiveness/shame issues to admit what is happening in appropriate timing for the situation to be resolved well. Like he's too embarrassed to admit he can't remember our zip code so he just puts down the wrong one instead of ask for help finding the correct info. Or embarrassed that he made a promise then didn't keep it, so he finds some way to make me the problem instead of just being accountable.

But maybe you are right - he understands just fine but isn't interested in doing the work to meet my needs better.

Having that intellectual curiosity would help so much. I am crying right now hearing you describe your dynamic because that is what I've wanted with my spouse. I don't expect mind reading (and think it is dangerous even for NT people to expect or assume they can mind read others) but I want to matter enough that you ask me what I am experiencing.

Either I do not matter enough to have this well-meaning inquiry happen, or he doesn't realize how poorly he assesses the situation and quickly applies one of several negative assumptions/judgments that place the blame for negative outcomes solely at my feet, or he is too ashamed to admit that he can't grok me like that. Idk. Occasionally he attempts questioning but it feels more like interrogation to find flaws in my logic so he can be right than truly wanting to understand my experience. And that's lame, because it's not a **** debate on C-SPAN.

 

[yogabanana]

I think it is possible that you are just not compatible. I think you have already put a lot of patience and work into this while he isn't. Whether it's innate or whether he chooses not to ultimately doesn't matter. He doesn't see a problem while you do, and that's ultimately the reason he isn't changing his behaviour I suspect. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I doubt things will get "better" for you if you have already tried everything and he doesn't see a problem.

He sees a problem, sure. He tells the couples therapist he realizes some of his contribution to the situation.
I just think he believes that it's mostly me, and has always been mostly me. In the moment he is so defensive that he cannot see what he is doing to make things crappy. For YEARS he had me convinced it really was all mostly my fault and that really did a number on my mental health.

I have told him repeatedly you cannot control me only yourself and blaming things on me isn't going to make them better so if you want our marriage to be a good one you have to focus on changing yourself. I have tried to follow that advice myself. I'm human so it's not perfect.

He is afraid to really look at himself. It is like pulling teeth to get any sign of self-awareness from him about those moments when it is obvious to both of us that he is the main source of things not working properly. He often handles his shame the way a narcissist handles their shame. But he agreed to pursue therapy for that, and at first therapy seemed to be helping but lately not so much.

I can know all sorts of things about why it is like it is, or suspect things that I might not be right about. At the end of the day, the problem is in the action and lack thereof and having an explanation for why the action isn't where I need it to be doesn't make me need it less.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

Maybe you are right @Neonatal RRT
I have thought all this time the issue is him not "grokking" the situation in a way he can make sense of it.
He relates a lot to Hephaestus, misfit underappreciated that understands machines better than people.

I have thought that he does not get it, or gets overwhelmed and can't remember what he's been taught, and then has too much defensiveness/shame issues to admit what is happening in appropriate timing for the situation to be resolved well. Like he's too embarrassed to admit he can't remember our zip code so he just puts down the wrong one instead of ask for help finding the correct info. Or embarrassed that he made a promise then didn't keep it, so he finds some way to make me the problem instead of just being accountable.

But maybe you are right - he understands just fine but isn't interested in doing the work to meet my needs better.

Having that intellectual curiosity would help so much. I am crying right now hearing you describe your dynamic because that is what I've wanted with my spouse. I don't expect mind reading (and think it is dangerous even for NT people to expect or assume they can mind read others) but I want to matter enough that you ask me what I am experiencing.

Either I do not matter enough to have this well-meaning inquiry happen, or he doesn't realize how poorly he assesses the situation and quickly applies one of several negative assumptions/judgments that place the blame for negative outcomes solely at my feet, or he is too ashamed to admit that he can't grok me like that. Idk. Occasionally he attempts questioning but it feels more like interrogation to find flaws in my logic so he can be right than truly wanting to understand my experience. And that's lame, because it's not a **** debate on C-SPAN.

Personally, I am thinking if you two looked at things from a "team" approach,...understand and be self aware of each other's strengths and weaknesses. As one might say,..."Sometimes it takes two to create one good person." I have my strengths, she has hers,...we know what they are,...and we play off of them for the betterment of us as a married couple in life. We have fairly well defined roles,...at no point do we see each other as "equals" per se, but rather quite different,...and we take advantage of it. I know, if you step back from the emotions of the situation,...the both of you,...and just look at things from a teams approach you might find some value in defining your roles and making the relationship work. You do what you do well, he does what he does well. With that, do understand and have some grace in the fact that when he has to do something for you, or you have to do something for him,...the methods and techniques are not going to be the same,...and that's OK,...the task is completed,...be thankful and move on.

If he is struggling with specific things,...he has to accept it. If you are struggling with things,...you have to accept it. You have to have this attitude,...to quote a line from the movie "Toby Maguire",..."You complete me." Define your roles, take advantage of each others strengths,...and as far as weaknesses,...admit and understand them,...and never use them as a "dig" on the other person.

As far as the "mind reading" thing,...seriously,...neither one of you should be foolish enough to suggest anything like that. ASK,...and be direct,...and don't phrase a request in a form of a question (out of politeness),...just make the request. Don't play petty mind games.

 

[Aspychata]

I think we come to relationships with our wishlist. However the other person may not make that happen due to whatever reasons. We become frustrated because we think we are doing what they want so why don't they reciprocate? Some partners just truly don't want to meet us half-way, so that just throws the whole relationship in our face, and makes us question the value of it. You sound like you are sitting in quagmire soup and nothing is happening. You could possibly come up with a very simple list and get him to work on one thing at a time. I think some of us come from a anxiety base at all times. If we think you are suddenly changing the rules of the relationship, we may resist or act like we just don't hear you, because we aren't going to change the status quo. Some of us are down right stubborn. So change one thing at a time slowly, and make sure to give positive reinforcement so that is a pleasurable change. Otherwise you have to perhaps take a temporary separation so you can decide what you will and won't do.

 

[yogabanana]

Personally, I am thinking if you two looked at things from a "team" approach,...understand and be self aware of each other's strengths and weaknesses. As one might say,..."Sometimes it takes two to create one good person." I have my strengths, she has hers,...we know what they are,...and we play off of them for the betterment of us as a married couple in life. We have fairly well defined roles,...at no point do we see each other as "equals" per se, but rather quite different,...and we take advantage of it. I know, if you step back from the emotions of the situation,...the both of you,...and just look at things from a teams approach you might find some value in defining your roles and making the relationship work. You do what you do well, he does what he does well. With that, do understand and have some grace in the fact that when he has to do something for you, or you have to do something for him,...the methods and techniques are not going to be the same,...and that's OK,...the task is completed,...be thankful and move on.

If he is struggling with specific things,...he has to accept it. If you are struggling with things,...you have to accept it. You have to have this attitude,...to quote a line from the movie "Toby Maguire",..."You complete me." Define your roles, take advantage of each others strengths,...and as far as weaknesses,...admit and understand them,...and never use them as a "dig" on the other person.

As far as the "mind reading" thing,...seriously,...neither one of you should be foolish enough to suggest anything like that. ASK,...and be direct,...and don't phrase a request in a form of a question (out of politeness),...just make the request. Don't play petty mind games.

Yes I agree it should be us vs the problem. I believe that we generally do ok with that, especially for anything that isn't yogabanana's emotional needs. We also joke that between the two of us we make a single whole person.

Normal role stuff makes sense, the structure and predictability soothe me. He does well with structure but it has to be enforced from the outside for a while before it is self-sustaining.

I am not sure how to have designated roles for something like relational communication, validation, etc. Especially since it is NOT recommended to fall into prompt dependency. So I am the expert on relational communication, but I cannot have that role by myself, if it necessitates mutual sharing of emotions and specific ways of communicating. And it is ill advisable to do what ends up happening naturally, to constantly tell the partner in the moment what behavior is needed/expected. This creates a bad dynamic that both parties dislike according to the research.

Since I am also autistic, I loathe mind games and would never play games intentionally. He and I both misattribute each other's behavior as games at times, though.

 

[yogabanana]

You could possibly come up with a very simple list and get him to work on one thing at a time. I think some of us come from a anxiety base at all times.... So change one thing at a time slowly, and make sure to give positive reinforcement so that is a pleasurable change. Otherwise you have to perhaps take a temporary separation so you can decide what you will and won't do.

Whew I gotta say my initial feeling reading this was one of anger. I have autism too. I am barely hanging on with my executive functioning since I am using my EF skills all day at work then also for an entire family, all the planning and organizing for the home etc. I sound "high(er) functioning maybe but it's coming at a HUGE cost and I do not get any understanding or sympathy for being chronically on the verge of a breakdown to keep life functioning.

I don't think it is fair that he gets this level of accommodation while I have to just be a super patient teacher for weeks/months/years. Who accommodates me? Who bends over backwards to read forum conversations, blogs, articles and books to better understand me? Who sits down with me and proactively makes a contract or written plan with a hierarchy of desired changes and ensures they only offer positive feedback? I guess an ABA therapist does that. How can he be my partner if I am his ABA therapist? Should it not be his own responsibility to take on that work?

I guess part of your point is probably yes, it should be his own responsibility, but if he isn't already trying to do that then I can work to change things through my own efforts or give up/withdraw and reassess. Yeah?

 

[Aspychata]

@Thinx made an excellent point. It gets down to what two people are working towards or not working towards and stay within the confines of what's expected. But also don't be afraid to have boundaries.

 

[Aspychata]

Whew I gotta say my initial feeling reading this was one of anger. I have autism too. I am barely hanging on with my executive functioning since I am using my EF skills all day at work then also for an entire family, all the planning and organizing for the home etc. I sound "high(er) functioning maybe but it's coming at a HUGE cost and I do not get any understanding or sympathy for being chronically on the verge of a breakdown to keep life functioning.

I don't think it is fair that he gets this level of accommodation while I have to just be a super patient teacher for weeks/months/years. Who accommodates me? Who bends over backwards to read forum conversations, blogs, articles and books to better understand me? Who sits down with me and proactively makes a contract or written plan with a hierarchy of desired changes and ensures they only offer positive feedback? I guess an ABA therapist does that. How can he be my partner if I am his ABA therapist? Should it not be his own responsibility to take on that work?

I guess part of your point is probably yes, it should be his own responsibility, but if he isn't already trying to do that then I can work to change things through my own efforts or give up/withdraw and reassess. Yeah?

Sorry. My roof blew off last nite. I am operating with half a brain last nite. Yes, you are correct. Do you really want to accommodate? I just think men sometimes go through autism differently then we do as females. Please accept my sincere apologies. My role in relationships has always been some of the more understanding one? Is that a nice way to say it? But lately l have been learning and maturing finally. In the morning, the neighbor across the street, his palm tree flung itself across the road and the green part landed on my lawn, very tall tree. So my brain was already messed up in the morning. Lol

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

So what communication style are you recommending?

This post is still just drop-in, but there's a half-answer to this.

BTW please don't just try this today. And it doesn't have to be done all at once.
Be patient, plan, prepare, practice.

1. Your husband doesn't understand the core topic (your emotional needs) and refuses to, or honestly can't, learn. IMO explaining, teaching etc are literally a waste of time. Possibly having a negative effect.

But your needs are not a matter for negotiation or for evasion (on his part).

Tell him in the simplest and most direct possible terms what your needs are and what he must to do to meet them.
For example: you will not negotiate on or beg for support when you're stressed out. He checks for signals, asks what's wrong or what to do, and he must deliver.

Note: When you do this: You're not asking. You're not negotiating. You're not explaining. All three provide a "hook" for evasion.

2. Your writing seems to be largely structured in a "stream of consciousness" style. This is for a relaxed discussion over a glass of wine Specifically, it doesn't seem to be right for your husband, at least for this kind of discussion. And it's definitely not the best way to get someone to do what you want.
Note that I'm not guessing here - I've been to classes for stuff like this, and used to have books on it.
This is from when I worked in an IT sales organization. I couldn't teach it, but I've used it as part of my work.

When you tell someone what they have to do , it's a polite version of giving an order.

You need a clear structure, only the necessary facts and ideas, simple short active sentences (I need X, I expect Y from you), leave no chinks in the structure - words like "prefer", "please", "perhaps" should be avoided - ideally completely.
It still has to be polite (e.g. "expect" rather than "require" above) but do not allow any weaknesses in the pitch for the sake of politeness. Content first, then "detune" it for softer objectives.

Note: There exist people who can pull off a complex version of this without prep. but not many. And you don't need that either.
Get the content right, work a bit on the words (content-centric, then make it as nice as you can while remaining "on point", then a run through (I know some techniques for doing this solo).
Last step is to prepare for likely pushback or disruption. It's not hard with a tight pitch.

BTW - there are people who are good at disruption. The final defensive step is essential.
(I had a simple example of this a few days ago - I'll see if I can find it later).

 

[yogabanana]

Sorry. My roof blew off last nite. I am operating with half a brain last nite. Yes, you are correct. Do you really want to accommodate? I just think men sometimes go through autism differently then we do as females. Please accept my sincere apologies.

OMG I am so sorry about your roof! How terrible. I hope your insurance will process the situation very quickly and smoothly.

Nothing to apologize for. You're sharing your feedback and suggestions which is what I requested.

I'm not angry with you and I apologize if that was what you heard me saying as that is not what I meant to be saying.

I'm angry at society and brain differences for forcing women to be in the role of primary relationship manager. I'm angry that there is this expectation or obligation to parent my husband but then I have to turn around and want sex with him too. (He's a wonderful lover and when I feel like my needs are being respected I love our sex life.)

I'm angry at the male social conditioning that feeds pieces of this problem, probably even among autists though I've not read much on that.

Like society thinks men should be stoic so we raise them not knowing how to process their emotions effectively. "Suppress, flee when flooded or convert to anger" appears to be the only socially acceptable options. Then if they end up in a relationship with a woman that does value emotional connection, they are stunted or stubborn or feel incompetent and run away from that feeling (since they are taught that isn't allowed from men either) which means run away from her and her needs since her request triggers that feeling he doesn't like.

Sorry this is a special interest for me, how boys are raised in relation to their emotional world etc. I have read a lot on this topic by experts in the field, including clinical studies as well as anecdotes from working about this dynamic in their cishet relationships.

It is just frustrating. Men and women already have a big gap to bridge and society just makes it bigger. Then women initiate most divorces and men don't even realize how much they rely on the female for social connections and general emotional hygiene til she is gone. But male pride, ego, competency expectations, fear of weakness etc prevent the man in that scenario from seeking to address those gaps in many cases.

So I have that baseline understanding and I could otherwise guide my husband towards being more self aware and internally connected so he can meet my needs better more naturally. Per Kenneth Roberson, this is the way. (Cannot find exact article but basically he challenges the idea that intervening for an autist in their relational experiences is accomplished by teaching missing skills and just reinforcing them ad infinitum. HE thinks a better approach is to help that person be more internally aware, connected to who they are on multiple levels and improvement in the areas of common complaint tends to come naturally from that.

My partner resists or doesn't explain why he's going slow/not doing a thing, I get frustrated and then of course I'm not the ideal person to help him talk about squishy stuff at that point. He does get very long periods of time where I am being safe to express those things, but he doesn't remember the times he does trust and the results of that. I try to make big neon lights around it - "hey you came to me quickly to apologize and showed me you were listening, and the conversation ended because I got what I wanted vs us spending 3 days in gridlock. Kinda cool huh?" Or pointing out times he is more open with me in the moment and the positive results of that.

Doesn't stick I guess.

Unfortunately one of my persistent autistic traits is a need for lots of information so I know what to expect. If you are acting things out, not talking about them, and then also don't explain later what is happening and why (and not expecting me to "just get it", I really need everything explicit) I will be an anxious mess, unable to predict anything, therefore not feeling safe. He is not a fan of my behavior when I feel unsafe, nor am I, but I cannot accommodate him entirely while my own needs are not met. He may never give me full consistency but he can learn to explain when he is deviating from a pattern what is the reason, or even saying "you're right I'm showing up differently but I'm not sure why, if I figure it out and feel like it's information you should have, then I will come tell you." Or "I'm not entirely sure if you are right that I am acting differently. I'm going to need a few minutes to figure that out. I will come find you once I understand what's happening better." Like just existing with that type of communication happening regularly would settle me down a lot.

Ugh now I feel bad talking about relationship issues with someone that lost their whole roof. I'm so sorry.

 

[Aspychata]

It's great you cleared that off your chest. It's obviously been built up for some time. Conditioning is a pain in the backside. But men do have limitations when it comes to communicating. Not sure how much is conditioning, and how much is just biological differences which sometimes we can overcome. It has to be frustrating for men to not really see where we come from also. It has been proven that woman come from more of a feeling based approach then men do. So how can we truly expect them to meet us evenly on the playing field?

But it's great you are finally getting a chance to express your frustrations and nobody judges you here. Welcome to the forum. Great to have a another perspective here and see it expressed so clearly for men to read also.

 

[yogabanana]

@yogabanana

So what communication style are you recommending?

This post is still just drop-in, but there's a half-answer to this.

BTW please don't just try this today. And it doesn't have to be done all at once.
Be patient, plan, prepare, practice.

1. Your husband doesn't understand the core topic (your emotional needs) and refuses to, or honestly can't, learn. IMO explaining, teaching etc are literally a waste of time. Possibly having a negative effect.

But your needs are not a matter for negotiation or for evasion (on his part).

Tell him in the simplest and most direct possible terms what your needs are and what he must to do to meet them.
For example: you will not negotiate on or beg for support when you're stressed out. He checks for signals, asks what's wrong or what to do, and he must deliver.

Note: When you do this: You're not asking. You're not negotiating. You're not explaining. All three provide a "hook" for evasion.

2. Your writing seems to be largely structured in a "stream of consciousness" style. This is for a relaxed discussion over a glass of wine Specifically, it doesn't seem to be right for your husband, at least for this kind of discussion. And it's definitely not the best way to get someone to do what you want.
Note that I'm not guessing here - I've been to classes for stuff like this, and used to have books on it.
This is from when I worked in an IT sales organization. I couldn't teach it, but I've used it as part of my work.

When you tell someone what they have to do , it's a polite version of giving an order.

You need a clear structure, only the necessary facts and ideas, simple short active sentences (I need X, I expect Y from you), leave no chinks in the structure - words like "prefer", "please", "perhaps" should be avoided - ideally completely.
It still has to be polite (e.g. "expect" rather than "require" above) but do not allow any weaknesses in the pitch for the sake of politeness. Content first, then "detune" it for softer objectives.

Note: There exist people who can pull off a complex version of this without prep. but not many. And you don't need that either.
Get the content right, work a bit on the words (content-centric, then make it as nice as you can while remaining "on point", then a run through (I know some techniques for doing this solo).
Last step is to prepare for likely pushback or disruption. It's not hard with a tight pitch.

BTW - there are people who are good at disruption. The final defensive step is essential.
(I had a simple example of this a few days ago - I'll see if I can find it later).

Sounds like you are recommending how they do it in the military. BLUF - Bottom Line Up Front
That is an accommodation that I would be willing to make. I think as I talk, as you noticed, stereotypical female verbal processing style of processing, so I am not really sure how to arrive at that information without talking. Maybe I can just make an audio recording talking to myself and see if I can arrive at the bottom line that way.

He also says that he has tried this - I identify a need and how to meet it. He thinks he is delivering but I do not receive it as if he has met the need. He thinks that means I am not a credible authority on my own needs, or that I am basically playing games and didn't really want the thing to work. I tell him something is not working in the implementation. When he expresses these complaints he is vague without specific examples so I usually cannot give better info on what implementation issues exist.

He thinks I am trying to control him by making him jump through hoops, only to end up somewhere where I am satisfied but only temporarily. He says this is not true but his actions communicate an expectation that one successful effort to meet my needs in one area of our shared life should extend globally to all areas and he should not have to field any further requests for like a couple of weeks or something.

I'll have to put some thought into your idea. I actually composed a text for him a couple of weeks ago with a simple list of my needs. He did not read it until I found out he had not read it and got upset. If he will not read the information it cannot be acted upon, but I will keep expecting that he has read it then be doubly upset that he just ignored the feedback. Not sure how to fix that.

I do understand my need to say so much is part of the issue. I have cut it down in day to day communication. I have a hard time being concise in these escalated scenarios since I feel so unheard, it is logical to me that more words improves the chance of him hearing me. Because he does not say "I heard you but I don't care" or "I hear you but I don't understand how to do that" or "I hear you but I am overwhelmed and cannot respond effectively now" or "I hear you but I am feeling too much self-criticism to continue" or just anything along those lines. Or repeating back his understanding of what my words are. Without any of that it is hard to know if he is listening. So I end up repeating myself like I am doing in this thread

 

[Aspychata]

I read that some of us are internal thinkers, and some of us are external thinkers. Maybe you and him have two have different styles. And if he has delayed emotional processing, external thinking style won't really register.

 

[Aspychata]

Maybe you are right @Neonatal RRT
I have thought all this time the issue is him not "grokking" the situation in a way he can make sense of it.
He relates a lot to Hephaestus, misfit underappreciated that understands machines better than people.

I have thought that he does not get it, or gets overwhelmed and can't remember what he's been taught, and then has too much defensiveness/shame issues to admit what is happening in appropriate timing for the situation to be resolved well. Like he's too embarrassed to admit he can't remember our zip code so he just puts down the wrong one instead of ask for help finding the correct info. Or embarrassed that he made a promise then didn't keep it, so he finds some way to make me the problem instead of just being accountable.

But maybe you are right - he understands just fine but isn't interested in doing the work to meet my needs better.

Having that intellectual curiosity would help so much. I am crying right now hearing you describe your dynamic because that is what I've wanted with my spouse. I don't expect mind reading (and think it is dangerous even for NT people to expect or assume they can mind read others) but I want to matter enough that you ask me what I am experiencing.

Either I do not matter enough to have this well-meaning inquiry happen, or he doesn't realize how poorly he assesses the situation and quickly applies one of several negative assumptions/judgments that place the blame for negative outcomes solely at my feet, or he is too ashamed to admit that he can't grok me like that. Idk. Occasionally he attempts questioning but it feels more like interrogation to find flaws in my logic so he can be right than truly wanting to understand my experience. And that's lame, because it's not a **** debate on C-SPAN.

Validation. It's a tough theme, for us on the spectrum to express, to ask for, and for another ND person to actually reciprocate. If they don't reciprocate, then we blame ourself.
Have you two grown apart? Is there an underlying issue in your relationship currently?

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

I came back to copy something for you from a thread that assem to have been deleted
The thread was no loss, but the examples were on how to deal with trolls, and may have been useful.

Here's a short reply to your post #33.


Your guy is playing you. Your normal communication style makes it easy even for an amateur.
There are names for his BS delivery on promises: "half-assing it" is one. "Weaponized incompetence" is better.

You don't make allowances or talk those out. You call BS directly and not overly politely.

BTW - I'm strongly against throwing threats around, but you need to prepare more than just your pitch.
You need to obtain power in the relationship. But don't say anything about it. Never signal your moves.

Only when you're 100% ready to immediately execute the action, you can use it the threat.
But at that point, you're less likely to want to use it - the ability to act will make you strong.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I am not sure how to have designated roles for something like relational communication, validation, etc. Especially since it is NOT recommended to fall into prompt dependency. So I am the expert on relational communication, but I cannot have that role by myself, if it necessitates mutual sharing of emotions and specific ways of communicating. And it is ill advisable to do what ends up happening naturally, to constantly tell the partner in the moment what behavior is needed/expected. This creates a bad dynamic that both parties dislike according to the research.

You are correct. Perhaps I wasn't clear. My wife and I do not have roles when it comes to communication, empathy, and emotional reciprocity. Having said that, I do not modulate my emotions well,...either ON or OFF,...and it is rather disrupting and embarrassing for me,...so my default is to be rather neutral in terms of my expression of emotion. I feel all sorts of emotions,...sometimes deeply,...but I also struggle with the identification of them, sometimes taking me minutes, hours, days to process. As a result,...within the moment, it's best for me that I appear rather "stoic" and not react, rather than reacting to something inappropriately. However, sometimes my lack of reaction also appears inappropriate,...so, I am at a disadvantage no matter how I respond,...or not.

My wife and I have learned that we MUST discuss things,...even emotional things,...without emotion. We can agree to disagree,...that's fine,...but absolutely NO emotional arguments. I will try to shut the other person down,...saying anything to get myself out of the situation,...and if I am pushed further, I will become quiet, even mute,...and if pushed further, I become physically violent. If you can't say what you want to say in a calm, relaxed, logical manner,...don't say anything at all to me,...let it go until you can. Luckily, my wife and I are at a point where we know the rules of engagement.

 

[Aspychata]

You are correct. Perhaps I wasn't clear. My wife and I do not have roles when it comes to communication, empathy, and emotional reciprocity. Having said that, I do not modulate my emotions well,...either ON or OFF,...and it is rather disrupting and embarrassing for me,...so my default is to be rather neutral in terms of my expression of emotion. I feel all sorts of emotions,...sometimes deeply,...but I also struggle with the identification of them, sometimes taking me minutes, hours, days to process. As a result,...within the moment, it's best for me that I appear rather "stoic" and not react, rather than reacting to something inappropriately. However, sometimes my lack of reaction also appears inappropriate,...so, I am at a disadvantage no matter how I respond,...or not.

My wife and I have learned that we MUST discuss things,...even emotional things,...without emotion. We can agree to disagree,...that's fine,...but absolutely NO emotional arguments. I will try to shut the other person down,...saying anything to get myself out of the situation,...and if I am pushed further, I will become quiet, even mute,...and if pushed further, I become physically violent. If you can't say what you want to say in a calm, relaxed, logical manner,...don't say anything at all to me,...let it go until you can. Luckily, my wife and I are at a point where we know the rules of engagement.

Thank you for taking the time to describe this. I am also trying to understand the male perspective, and you made this crystal clear, it's sorta of what l think but needed it said. Thank you to the OP for this post. @Neonatal RRT Maybe you should write a book on this.

I know someone who has the same shutdown valve, and l couldn't understand it. No emotional tone is allowed otherwise full walls go up before l blink, and then l am left blaming myself when it's just a normal protective response for the other. Congrats on your marriage. It's refreshing to hear that couples can work this out as long as the rules are followed.

 

[yogabanana]

I read that some of us are internal thinkers, and some of us are external thinkers. Maybe you and him have two have different styles. And if he has delayed emotional processing, external thinking style won't really register

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

It's great you cleared that off your chest. It's obviously been built up for some time. Conditioning is a pain in the backside. But men do have limitations when it comes to communicating. Not sure how much is conditioning, and how much is just biological differences which sometimes we can overcome. It has to be frustrating for men to not really see where we come from also. It has been proven that woman come from more of a feeling based approach then men do. So how can we truly expect them to meet us evenly on the playing field?

But it's great you are finally getting a chance to express your frustrations and nobody judges you here. Welcome to the forum. Great to have a another perspective here and see it expressed so clearly for men to read also.

Thank you. I read an article that said women are more comfortable with emotions, able to tolerate moderate intensity of emotion better than men, due partly to biology and partly because women "allow themselves to feel more." Like we get more practice so we build those muscles to tolerate the emotion. Men generally suppress, distract, minimize, avoid, because the emotion is not comfortable so it remains easily overwhelming. The author was suggesting that men can learn to tolerate emotion better and strengthen these muscles the same way.

I also know from other research that studies have proven boys are generally MORE emotionally sensitive than girls. They are socialized to hide this. But they actually feel more than we do. This is part of why infant boys will break eye contact faster than infant girls will - they feel more so they are more easily overwhelmed.

We also have a difference in the corpus callosum which, if I understand correctly, makes it easier for emotions to be translated into words because we as women can shift back and forth between hemispheres more easily than men. My husband says he can either feel something or talk about it/analyze it but cannot do both at once. Obviously I can LOL. I wonder if that is an expression of the corpus callosum difference.

Lol special interest anyone ... How nice to info dump in a safe space where it's also relevant to the topic at hand!

 

[Aspychata]

My girlfriend says men should come with manuals.