NT traits being more recent in homo sapiens evolution

[Hypnalis]

don't support the "autistic people are non-contributing members of society" theory, and don't think it's fair to say that autistic people would inherently not survive natural selection.

@Luca
That's not what I said.

The OP suggests that in evolutionary terms, Autistic traits are older, and NT traits are newer.
There's no hard evidence either way of course, so it can be discussed, but there's no "demonstrably correct answer".

We can ask some questions though, like:
* Were NT social skills part of Homos Sapiens from the start, 300 000 years ago, or did they develop later (e.g. 100K years ago)?
This would require significant evolutionary change in Homo Sapiens - it isn't just epigenetics (variation due to variable gene expression).

* Did Homo Erectus (the mid-to-later forms) have NT-style social skills, or were ASD traits more common?
They had stone tools, fire, and had the ability to kill large animals (they were an Apex predator).
Note that there was definitely evolution in Homo Erectus over their 2 million years of existence.
:
The OP's suggestions require that earlier forms of Homo had more autistic traits, and fewer NT traits. And that the autistics traits we observe today (including in ourselves) are a genetic remnant from a time/context when they were more useful than NT social skills.

This is clearly possible.

The obvious alternative is also possible.

In neither case does it make any difference that some people with autistic traits get along perfectly well in the modern world, and others (e.g. ASD3: "Requires Very Substantial Support") get along less well.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Very good understanding of my OP, thanks.

There is just one detail:

the autistics traits we observe today (including in ourselves) are a genetic remnant from a time/context when they were more useful than NT social skills.

The NT traits were better traits from evolution perspective. They just were not there before for humans. There was no competition of traits. Its not just social stuff like talking about the weather.

We can have conversations with other apes about the world, about friendship and children. They can also cheat and lie.

What they cant do is to trust and thus work with individuals they dont know. They are specific and hiper realistic. They lack figurative thinking like.... Autists to some degree.

The concept of money, the shared ethics, religions, nationalism, justice, human rights... Those are the tools needed to make a ape group cooperate in millions of individuals.

No accient human group could cooperate in the millions, no other ape can do it. Apes are designed to work with family and friends in the hundreds.

It is very well explained in the book:

https://www.amazon.com.mx/Sapiens-H...wicXNhIjoiMC41MCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ==&sr=8-2
So they are not looking for avanced tools, but looking to the human numbers. To evidences of commerce between different tribes. Evidence of mega cooperative projects like piramids, religions, etc. They are looking to social and political stuff.

Here is a small resume of that section of the book, just in case:

https://fs.blog/why-humans-dominate-earth/

 

[Knower of nothing]

I was under the assumption our technological advances and social ""stability"" (good enough to not die out) comes from the fact we have BOTH. Not one or the other. A spectrum that goes deep even within the broad classification of NT or ND. To experiment but be rigid. To discover but be conservative. To be social and trusting and skeptical and manipulative. Intelligent, logical, paranoid, presumptuous, aggressive, kind, sadistic, curious, the bleeding heart, precise, clumsy, endearing, charming, intimidating. In these larger groups, many mindsets come together like a many-armed beast of legend, capable of feats and horrors unimaginable. Which is older? I think while what's common may change or have changed, it feels to me it has to have all been there from the start. Maybe uncovering more extreme cases as the population rose.
Someone needs to invent the idea. Someone needs to design it. Someone needs to put it into practice. Someone needs to use it. Someone needs to regulate it.
Sometimes that's one person. Sometimes that takes 5 different mindsets. And that's just in the exploratory advancement side.

 

[JackAdams]

I was under the assumption our technological advances and social ""stability"" (good enough to not die out) comes from the fact we have BOTH. Not one or the other. A spectrum that goes deep even within the broad classification of NT or ND. To experiment but be rigid. To discover but be conservative. To be social and trusting and skeptical and manipulative. Intelligent, logical, paranoid, presumptuous, aggressive, kind, sadistic, curious, the bleeding heart, precise, clumsy, endearing, charming, intimidating. In these larger groups, many mindsets come together like a many-armed beast of legend, capable of feats and horrors unimaginable. Which is older? I think while what's common may change or have changed, it feels to me it has to have all been there from the start. Maybe uncovering more extreme cases as the population rose.
Someone needs to invent the idea. Someone needs to design it. Someone needs to put it into practice. Someone needs to use it. Someone needs to regulate it.
Sometimes that's one person. Sometimes that takes 5 different mindsets. And that's just in the exploratory advancement side.

What you are getting at is that both NT and ND fit cohesively into a society. Which I agree. I prefer Asperger's and social human as terms instead of ND / NT.

In the traditional caste system of European society there was priest, warrior, and working castes.

To me "neurodivergent" Asperger's represents the priest caste of these societies. While the warrior and working castes were neurotypical social humans.

 

[Outdated]

To me "neurodivergent" Asperger's represents the priest caste of these societies. While the warrior and working castes were neurotypical social humans.

The same was true within Australian Aboriginal societies, with neurally divergent men becoming Gadaicha. A slightly different role to a European priest, they worshiped the land and the local ecosystems and would let the people know when they were outbreeding their environment. They were also assassins with no compunction about killing those who refused to comply.

 

[tree]

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