Our condition DOES NOT give us license

[Alaric593]

I think my only issue is the arbitrary claim that you must take responsibility before you can point at others failing to do the same. I know where that logic is coming from, I don't believe it actually applies to reality.
If you're not the greatest person, you can still demonize a murderer, to give an extreme example. In fact, please report crime when you see it, don't stop yourself because you haven't sorted yourself out. Don't accept the bad behavior of others towards yourself. Don't accept the bad behavior of others towards others. Call it out. It's easily worth being a hypocrite for. Once the finger gets pointed at you, just have the grace to accept it.

An extreme example of where it doesn't apply doesn't negate the plethora of where it does. There are many tall Chinese people that doesn't change that there is a norm.

 

[Magna]

One other thought on the subject: My mom must have told me a million times when I was a kid: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." At face value, that's good advice for anyone. However, it also led me to live my life by basically keeping my mouth shut. I was conditioned to keep quiet because I was conditioned to believe that much of what I wanted to say or ask was too blunt or inappropriate even if it wasn't my mom's intent to silence me in general. I've missed out on an untold number of interactions in my life as a result and instead have been relegated to the role of being a passive listener rather than an active participant with the subconscious restraint/fear of offending. I think that's wrong. I think it's sad.

I've grown to realize that I'm interested in things that most NTs are not. I've also had the opportunity to make a good number of autistic friends and not once that I can recall in my own personal experience did anyone autistic say to another autistic person: "That question is too personal/too direct/offensive/inappropriate." We are by nature an inquisitive bunch (Yay!) and we're by nature more open to talking about and thinking about things that NTs typically won't or don't (YAY!).

 

[Alaric593]

Our condition does not grant us license to flout clearly-defined ethics, but
it often blinds us to extraneous social conventions.

Fair enough. I was more writing to myself than him. I improperly externalized and internal dialogue for myself.

For that I apologize to everyone

 

[Alaric593]

So I agree with this, but just a bit later...



You insult someone who thinks differently without consecuence for it...

And just later...



Another one making fun of another human being, without any consecuence for it...

Wow, and just a bit later...



Bullying the same person, just to show by example how much do we act responsibly towards others...

So what an interesting show of doing just the contrary of what we claim. Not that I agree with @phantom but I am not going to insult or bully him.

Im not going to act however I want to him without consecuence for it...

May you all have a nice day, by the way...

Fair enough. I improperly externalized and internal dialogue meant for myself. That was my military service coming out. For me, that kind of advice is what has moved me forward in life as I didn't learn this was a thing until a few years ago but still struggled with it regardless and have had my behavior altered in this way many times. Granted, I respected those men a great deal so it's a different relationship dynamic. I don't know who that person is so it wouldn't have the same impact.

 

[Magna]

In regards to the dynamic between two people such as in a relationship or marriage: It's important for a person to be mindful of the other person's feelings. That does include being mindful of what you say. If for example a person is known to be upset by or offended by certain ideas, topics, subjects, etc, then it's important to be respectful of that.

Relationships are a "two-way street". It's also possible for a person to be overly-sensitive. If a person prone to being blunt is in a relationship with a person who is perhaps overly-sensitive...BOTH have work to do; and that's a fact.

 

[Alaric593]

Perhaps insulting people is not the best way to convince them of your thinking.

I do agree with @Alaric593 that autism is not a carte blanche or an excuse to behave like an ass on purpose. However, I also don't think you are going to be successful in dictating to others what their morals should be as ultimately it is up to each individual to decide for themselves. I personally like helping other people and making them feel better about themselves, but that is also because it makes me feel better as well, and I feel a sense of accomplishment when I do so.

If another person genuinely doesn't care about being nice or helpful, and it really doesn't make them feel any better about themselves, then I really can't supply a reason for why they should behave in that way (except "because others will treat you better", but even that sounds nebulous). Perhaps religion would give a reason, but I'm an atheist so I can't really use that arguments with others.

@Atrapa Almas already wrote pretty much what I wanted to say, but I've already written my comment, and it also responds more to the original idea.

Fair enough. This military style of advice is what allowed me to do the many things I have done in my life when I didn't know what this was and where my therapist is shocked I was able to do it.

Sometimes, kid gloves are not the tool needed. But this was an externalization of an internal dialogue to myself and honestly didn't view it as an insult. But the men who gave me this style advice I respected tremendously so it couldn't have the same impact as those situations

 

[Atrapa Almas]

I agree that autism/Aspergers doesn't give a person license to be intentionally uncivil, hurtful, etc. I would argue that the vast majority of autistic people are not inherently hurtful people, however. This brings us to: Intent.

Autistic people are often known to ask direct questions and to ask questions about things that NTs typically don't ask about. If the autistic person intends no harm and no offense but ends up offending anyway, sorry, but that's different than saying something with the goal of offending or hurting someone.

Here are a few questions off the top of my head that illustrate my point:

• To a co-worker or boss: "When are you going to retire?" Imagine the person asking has no ill intent and does not have any underlying reason such as "When are we going to be rid of you?"
• "Why do you wear that perfume?" Imagine the person asking has acute sensitivity to fragrances. Imagine that person genuinely wanting to know why the other person wears the perfume if it has such a strong fragrance. It's ok for NTs to talk about what upsets or offends them at will, but not autistics?
• Being asked if you want to hear the retelling of some seemingly innocuous event the other person experienced and you say: "No. That doesn't interest me at all and frankly I find it disturbing on many levels."

^None of those examples involve the autistic person intending on hurting the other person's feelings. The examples above are different than a person saying something like: "I hate you and I hope you die penniless." < That kind of statement directed toward anyone involves intent to hurt the person's feelings. It's knowingly unkind.

It all comes down to intent. Otherwise should autistic people only speak when spoken to? Should autistic people always ask to be told what to say and what not to say as dictated solely be NT conventions, preferences, behaviors, etc? The world is made up of many different kinds of people.

In a world that's increasingly accepting of and tolerant of fractionally small groups, it's interesting to me that there's still such an opposition by the many to be more aware of the difference in being direct (and not be offended by it) and being intentionally hurtful.

The Intent Vs Consecuences is a very old debate in law. Intent of killing vs killing by accident, as an example.

Both of them are considered in most countries law systems today. So I guess both are important.

 

[Alaric593]

Yes all our opinions are worth exploring, insults dont solve issues, and some here are young people, not yet adult, who are trying to work out how to manage their lives.

I don't understand the assumption that moral obligations are 'dumb', myself. How do you mean? I probably live my whole life doing my best to have a morally based approach to others. It can be your own system, but without it, what's the point of us?

Also, dismissing all ideas of morality as 'dumb' , as if you don't need to make any cogent arguments to say how you got there, isn't something most people would find persuasive. And perhaps it's worth not trying to do so? Given we do know our autism can make us a bit oblivious to some ideas and values. Caring about others is important, I would say.

As another posted, the intent matters, and it wasn't intended as an insult.

It was an externalization of an internal dialogue to myself. He just got in the way in retrospect.

But in the moment, it was the same style of leadership as men with whom I have great respect for and who greatly respected me, used on me to take me to a different level of achievement. I could not have done the things I've done without this style of advice.

One of the many behaviors in the civilian world that irritates me like a cheese grater to the skin is the use of kids gloves for anything and everything.

Because it is my experience that my behavior changed drastically when men I had great respect for and had great respect for me told me to pull my head out of my rectal cavity and be the man they know I can be because they've seen it in action but it's too inconsistent. That I am too good at what I did to be a quitter and to get up front and lead those men with them.

Granted, since I don't know this person personally, it couldn't possibly have the same impact as the relationship dynamic is not analogous.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I agree that autism/Aspergers doesn't give a person license to be intentionally uncivil, hurtful, etc. I would argue that the vast majority of autistic people are not inherently hurtful people, however. This brings us to: Intent.

Autistic people are often known to ask direct questions and to ask questions about things that NTs typically don't ask about. If the autistic person intends no harm and no offense but ends up offending anyway, sorry, but that's different than saying something with the goal of offending or hurting someone.

Here are a few questions off the top of my head that illustrate my point:

• To a co-worker or boss: "When are you going to retire?" Imagine the person asking has no ill intent and does not have any underlying reason such as "When are we going to be rid of you?"
• "Why do you wear that perfume?" Imagine the person asking has acute sensitivity to fragrances. Imagine that person genuinely wanting to know why the other person wears the perfume if it has such a strong fragrance. It's ok for NTs to talk about what upsets or offends them at will, but not autistics?
• Being asked if you want to hear the retelling of some seemingly innocuous event the other person experienced and you say: "No. That doesn't interest me at all and frankly I find it disturbing on many levels."

^None of those examples involve the autistic person intending on hurting the other person's feelings. The examples above are different than a person saying something like: "I hate you and I hope you die penniless." < That kind of statement directed toward anyone involves intent to hurt the person's feelings. It's knowingly unkind.

It all comes down to intent. Otherwise should autistic people only speak when spoken to? Should autistic people always ask to be told what to say and what not to say as dictated solely be NT conventions, preferences, behaviors, etc? The world is made up of many different kinds of people.

In a world that's increasingly accepting of and tolerant of fractionally small groups, it's interesting to me that there's still such an opposition by the many to be more aware of the difference in being direct (and not be offended by it) and being intentionally hurtful.

To tail in on that. What @Magna is describing and highlighting in his examples is the differences between "direct" and "indirect" language. Most people in society speak in "indirect" language and then "read between the lines". They find this style of language to be "polite". When confronted with a person who speaks in direct language,...and then they try to read between the lines,...their mind goes to places that it was never "intended",...and then perceive what was said as course, rude, or offensive. Hence @Magna's concern over intent. Language and interpretation is very nuanced. In my youth I made countless mistakes of using direct language with people who didn't understand I was using direct language,...and having them get really pissed off with me because they misinterpreted the intent.

My advice: I think if you are in a relationship with someone, whether it be a love interest,...or even a close co-worker or team member,...you might want to have that discussion with them up front. "I speak in direct language and I prefer to be spoken in direct language." "I have difficulties interpreting the meaning of indirect language the same way you may have difficulties interpreting direct language." "When in doubt, we clarify things with each other before letting our emotions get the better of us."

 

[Alaric593]

To tail in on that. What @Magna is describing and highlighting in his examples is the differences between "direct" and "indirect" language. Most people in society speak in "indirect" language and then "read between the lines". They find this style of language to be "polite". When confronted with a person who speaks in direct language,...and then they try to read between the lines,...their mind goes to places that it was never "intended",...and then perceive what was said as course, rude, or offensive. Hence @Magna's concern over intent. Language and interpretation is very nuanced. In my youth I made countless mistakes of using direct language with people who didn't understand I was using direct language,...and having them get really pissed off with me because they misinterpreted the intent.

My advice: I think if you are in a relationship with someone, whether it be a love interest,...or even a close co-worker or team member,...you might want to have that discussion with them up front. "I speak in direct language and I prefer to be spoken in direct language." "I have difficulties interpreting the meaning of indirect language the same way you may have difficulties interpreting direct language." "When in doubt, we clarify things with each other before letting our emotions get the better of us."

For sure. I improperly externalized and internal dialogue to myself and it wasn't meant as an insult. Indirect language to me wastes my time because then I have to sit and decipher that which could just be told to me directly. Granted I'm but one island in a sea of many which is ultimately the issue.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

For sure. I improperly externalized and internal dialogue to myself and it wasn't meant as an insult. Indirect language to me wastes my time because then I have to sit and decipher that which could just be told to me directly. Granted I'm but one island in a sea of many which is ultimately the issue,

Welcome to the club.

 

[Alaric593]

I agree that autism/Aspergers doesn't give a person license to be intentionally uncivil, hurtful, etc. I would argue that the vast majority of autistic people are not inherently hurtful people, however. This brings us to: Intent.

Autistic people are often known to ask direct questions and to ask questions about things that NTs typically don't ask about. If the autistic person intends no harm and no offense but ends up offending anyway, sorry, but that's different than saying something with the goal of offending or hurting someone.

Here are a few questions off the top of my head that illustrate my point:

• To a co-worker or boss: "When are you going to retire?" Imagine the person asking has no ill intent and does not have any underlying reason such as "When are we going to be rid of you?"
• "Why do you wear that perfume?" Imagine the person asking has acute sensitivity to fragrances. Imagine that person genuinely wanting to know why the other person wears the perfume if it has such a strong fragrance. It's ok for NTs to talk about what upsets or offends them at will, but not autistics?
• Being asked if you want to hear the retelling of some seemingly innocuous event the other person experienced and you say: "No. That doesn't interest me at all and frankly I find it disturbing on many levels."

^None of those examples involve the autistic person intending on hurting the other person's feelings. The examples above are different than a person saying something like: "I hate you and I hope you die penniless." < That kind of statement directed toward anyone involves intent to hurt the person's feelings. It's knowingly unkind.

It all comes down to intent. Otherwise should autistic people only speak when spoken to? Should autistic people always ask to be told what to say and what not to say as dictated solely be NT conventions, preferences, behaviors, etc? The world is made up of many different kinds of people.

In a world that's increasingly accepting of and tolerant of fractionally small groups, it's interesting to me that there's still such an opposition by the many to be more aware of the difference in being direct (and not be offended by it) and being intentionally hurtful.

Correct. It wasn't meant as an insult. It was a militaristic style of advice as I've seen him morally posture regularly yet he doesn't believe he has any moral agency. I found it unacceptable and something he needed.

But in retrospect, I was communicating with myself, they just got in the way.

 

[Captain Jigglypuff]

I’ve always been pretty polite and kind. If I seem to be rude, it’s usually because I’m currently oblivious to how I am acting and don’t realize that I’m being rude. I also do not like wearing shoes inside my apartment or anyone else’s homes because my grandma grew up under the Japanese occupation of Taiwan and in their culture wearing shoes inside a person’s home is very rude. I rarely act out and if I do there is usually something that had triggered my reaction as I tend to not let small things get to me.

 

[Aspychata]

I an a little shocked that a newbie came to this forum and attacked someone who has been here quite a long time. Then you say you are religious. Religion doesn't give you the right to past judgements on others. You don't know what road they walked, you don't what level of autism they are challenged with. Please stay civil at this forum, we all pride ourself in treating people with respect.

Sometimes l don't understand other members, but l don't take it upon myself to judge them. Being here is a learning experience, some share their knowledge, and some of us, (including me) learn.

 

[Alaric593]

I an a little shocked that a newbie came to this forum and attacked someone who has been here quite a long time. Then you say you are religious. Religion doesn't give you the right to past judgements on others. You don't know what road they walked, you don't what level of autism they are challenged with. Please stay civil at this forum, we all pride ourself in treating people with respect.

Sometimes l don't understand other members, but l don't take it upon myself to judge them. Being here is a learning experience, some share their knowledge, and some of us, (including me) learn.

It wasn't an attack and I've never communicated I was religious. I've communicated my daughter is a follower of Christ without the religion and I was baptized a Baptist and moving toward Orthodoxy. That's entirely different than being religious in and of itself. And I don't see what relevance time in forum has to do with communication in honesty.

 

[Aspychata]

It wasn't an attack and I've never communicated I was religious. I've communicated my daughter is a follower of Christ without the religion and I was baptized a Baptist and moving toward Orthodoxy. That's entirely different than being religious in and of itself.

I am not going to argue with you. You didn't prove anything to me. I ask you to be respectful to others here. If you aren't respectful, the mods will step in.

 

[Darkkin]

Flipside of using autism as an excuse...How many of us use it at a reason we seek validation and have a tendency to be people pleasers?

How many of us set our standards ridiculously high because we think we need to atone for the deficits of our neurotype? With female autistics this is a very common feature. We don't use it as a license for poor behaviour, but as a catalyst for a huge amount of masking. Our behaviour becomes very formal and polite. Stiff to the point of breaking, but it allows us to pass unnoticed.

 

[Judge]

Most of us know the social- even physical consequences of bad behavior even within the most innocuous of social interactions. For which many of us spend a great deal of emotional and physical energy to mask hopefully without incident.

I can't imagine using autistic traits and behaviors as an excuse- ethically or logically. The reality being that most people don't understand such distinctions to begin with. So the idea of being able to get away with something so many don't basically understand seems unrealistic- even absurd.

 

[Alaric593]

Flipside of using autism as an excuse...How many of us use it at a reason we seek validation and have a tendency to be people pleasers?

How many of us set our standards ridiculously high because we think we need to atone for the deficits of our neurotype? With female autistics this is a very common feature. We don't use it as a license for poor behaviour, but as a catalyst for a huge amount of masking. Our behaviour becomes very formal and polite. Stiff to the point of breaking, but it allows us to pass unnoticed.

I understand. I am not a female. I use what tools I have, not what tools females have.

Whomever that was, I felt needed to hear it because it was True but it was also a communication to myself.

We can use kid gloves and spin our wheels to infinity, or we can cut through the bull and get to the heart of the matter and actually solve problems.

That style of advice being used with me has served me incredibly well in my life. It was improper form in retrospect because I realize the civilian world seems to prefer to have their leg peed on and told it's raining rather than getting to the point.

 

[SpiltPaint]

Hey guy, you have been here for 8 days and you are already behaving as if you know everything better and you have all the solutions. It's normal to get to know people a little first, before you talk trash to them and get all high and mighty. So how about you calm down and just be nice for a while? The military did very little to teach you manners, that's unusual. And this is not the military, it's a forum for people with autism. Can you please just stop. It's getting annoying. Who died and made you king of it all.

You've just come in after he's acknowledged and apologised for his words. What is your goal?