Question for non-Christians...

[Greatshield17]

The wierd thing is prayer vigils have produced tangible results

Its not reproducible, it cannot be either quantified nor qualified, but sometimes(more than odds would let it)
,[Sometimes something happens scare you half way back, and thensome.]when the event seems supernatural, it is humbling and sometimes frightening.

Primitive ppl are more superstiscious(i have never been able to spell this word)

It really does happen, divine intervention

Can you share some examples of that?

Also when you say “prayer vigils” do you mean like public gatherings for non-liturgical prayers, like a Catholic Rosary rally? “Vigil” has a specific meaning in the Catholic Faith, but I forget what it is at the moment.

 

[SimonSays]

Saint Therese of Lisieux had an explanation for this, I forget what it was but it might have borne some similarity with what you said.

Perhaps you will be able to remember or find out. I'd like to know what her explanation might be.

 

[Greatshield17]

This is true. Until they are told they are heathens and 'encouraged' to reform their ways by those who believe only they know the one true path to God. The indigenous natural simplicity replaced by unnecessary dogmatic complexity, and historically, often forcibly.

Science, through the idea of quantum entanglement, understands that nothing is separate. Thoughts are powerful. Observing something changes the outcome.

Meditating, praying… connects us. And believing in why it is being done makes a difference otherwise there's little point to it.

We discover the truth when we are ready to find it, and in a way that makes individual sense to us. Or, we can connect to something well-established so that we don't need to look or even think, only believe, which can work, unless it becomes corrupted, which it seems to always do on some level. That's the trouble with something trying to be divine by well-intentioned humans in divine clothing. It is not the word of God, just man's interpretation of it.

Actually, almost all religions have some “dogmatic complexity” somewhere, usually in the form of liturgy and ritual purity. (I actually did a blog post here, that shows an interesting way in which that worked out in Catholic history: Do Catholics "worship" Mary?: An Ancient Perspective)

The most simple religions I can think of, apart from Deism and Pantheism; are Protestant Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Jainism, all dogmatic proselytizing religions (the Four Noble Truths is a dogmatic belief) and even they certain strict rituals, like the Buddhist Tea Ceremony. Indigenous religions also have complex dogmas, (albeit de facto not de jure dogmas) liturgies and ritual rules, my local indigenous people actually once had an annual fishing season and there were strict ritual rules regarding that fishing season, such as no women coming near the fishing area.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Can you share some examples of that?

Also when you say “prayer vigils” do you mean like public gatherings for non-liturgical prayers, like a Catholic Rosary rally? “Vigil” has a specific meaning in the Catholic Faith, but I forget what it is at the moment.

Typically in catholic look for archaic definitions as a clue to usage, vigil was once the prayers for the dead at a wake,ie we stood vigil for brother max.
I have never even heard of a rosary rally didnt even know that catholics did anything but go to mass, light candles and do confession. And saints, and the breviary(is that catholic?) What i saw was from another path, protestant fundamentalist, also auld kine ways (witchcraft) both were miraculously effective in healing, relied on groupthink, had ceremony, ritual and props as part of it. It works though, sometimes.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

In magic[auld kine] we seek repitition of thought in the afflicted, as a currative. The special tea you drink as a _____ in a werking will strengthen you as it is well made, herbology is root of medicine, its also a trust bond, like acceptance. Beads n feathers, spell craft, smudge(smoke, like incense) are woven together as a performance art(kinda) in magic there are never any witnesses, its not allowed, not in my path, but many roads lead to rome. The trappings are hooks for me to patch your _____with. At root is the concept of cast out the evil, strengthen the whole person(patient) rely on memory to alter the path thru the multiverse to a new reality, where there is no malady/injury/illness.

Xian fundamentalist prayer circles are much different, very strange to see and often most joyous. It is like filling a thimble by pouring out a kettle. Prolonged, vocal, emo biased, passionate. They sing and pray and do the speak in tongues and laying on of hands, it doesnt often happen in fair witness, like a members only thing. They repeat many times this meeting too. Fundies proscribe nicotene, alcohol, caffiene and rec drugs(all) as un godly, so is often a proof of credential(really real born again), clean and sober is. They really discriminate against all wickedness as improper. Its actually tru it crosses over to other paths, also imp to rem is no cursing ever. Swear words are lit the names of Infernal Powers and to name Those Who Shall Not Be Named is to invite or invoke thier company. Sadly xians often made into liars and hypocrites by this impossible standard. If there is a secret sinner the prayers fail.

Noe in the fundies they say "born again" this means many things its a converted person basically, but born agains are no allowed to drink, smoke, get high, fork outside of marriage, etc. Its super important to them.
The next part they call the baptism of the holy spirit. This is like an acolyte level kinda. So then come the extraordinary abilities called char. These are fleeting, at the behest of the divine powers
The super powers belong to god, divinos theosophica gets complex, plus its sacred too ,
so may not be ok to speak of.

The holy spirit indwelling is the righteous man(no sin) guided by divinos(vision, speak in tongues translation,) to pray for this person to heal. So the change in divine magic comes from the divine, the spell worker has to be pure, as do others involved. I mean no offense calling it such is a classification of mto, and other things. Magic or lit of maguus or of magi means of the learned man, or of the temple ways, or of the wise.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Mto is magesti trifecta ordinalis. Plz forgive my hortible latin skills. The divinos magestri(prayer warrior) is a magix user but dont say to them, they get mad. Its bigotry really, old fued. To work magic i must believe so it comes and goes, likewise there is an ebb and flow of faith itself, bothe in the patient(victim) of the prayer and the ppl praying.

The sad part is that the fundies have one part and the witches have the other and you have to have both to make it werk.
Typ xians are predjudiced against casting a greater pentagram to work inside of. Is because of creepy american metal music , some horid cultish nonsense from the 80s i forget the name the band makes my gorge rise.

the starwheel has nothing to do with the forces of darkness, it is a pattern you weave together like making a basket. The target/victim/patient is in the middle. Its to put the world apart, or take the fish out of water, without a greater circle cast there is always feedback, its like electricity. So some of us maintain the circle, and thats all we do. The magus/priest operates within the rings(water, salt, ashes).its about consecration you would say, without the place made holy the angels cannot come. Its them you need, they do the work.....

 

[Skittlebisquit]

This is from rose publications, i thot u mite like to see it. Rose is a catholic co. I think, they make curriculae and posters for faith based teaching,ie sunday school.

Oops cant post it, copywright violation, look up fruit of the spirit on wwwrose-publishingdotcom

 

[Greatshield17]

Perhaps you will be able to remember or find out. I'd like to know what her explanation might be.

Found it, there’s actually an interesting story behind it, this actually took place after Saint Therese’s death.

During St. Therese of Lisieux’s life in the Carmelite Monastery, she dreamed of being a missionary and she particularly wanted to serve at the missions Hanoi, Vietnam. After her death, she got her wish, she appeared to a man in that very part of Vietnam, his name was Marcel Nguyễn Tân Văn. During her apparitions to Văn, she helped him with his own vocation of becoming a religious brother. During one apparition, St. Therese was teaching Văn, not just about prayer, but also meditation and mental prayer, which is sort of a meditative conversation with God; Văn asked St. Therese why he should tell God everything, doesn’t God already know everything? and St. Therese responded:

“Yes, He knows! But He pretends like He doesn’t know, He wants to hear it from you, He loves to listen to you!”​

 

[Aspychata]

If somebody says they are praying for me, l thank them. It can be a way of saying l care with a religious post-it-note. If you just say l am meditating for you, that sounds weird. But if you are trying to convert me then l tend to get miffed, like don't use my misfortune to try to convert me.

 

[Penumbra]

When someone let's me know they're praying for me, I ignore them. That's their deal. I dislike religion and I won't waste my time on it.

 

[Greatshield17]

Typically in catholic look for archaic definitions as a clue to usage, vigil was once the prayers for the dead at a wake,ie we stood vigil for brother max.
I have never even heard of a rosary rally didnt even know that catholics did anything but go to mass, light candles and do confession. And saints, and the breviary(is that catholic?) What i saw was from another path, protestant fundamentalist, also auld kine ways (witchcraft) both were miraculously effective in healing, relied on groupthink, had ceremony, ritual and props as part of it. It works though, sometimes.

I just discovered that Rosary rallies may have been invented by Saint Louis de Montfort, the great Marian Saint and man who perfected the practice of Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary; which I, myself am actually in the middle of doing right now. Apparently at one French town, a man approached him and complained about immoral activities that tended to occur his town square every evening; St. Louis de Montfort recommended that him, his family and friends, gather together in the town square and start saying the Rosary around that time every evening, and that’s how Rosary rallies in public at least, started; I think the practice of indoor gatherings to say the Rosary preceded that.

In regards to miraculous healings, the Rosary, Mass and other prayers and even sacramentals can cause healings. However there is also the Sacrament of Extreme Unction, part of the Church’s last rites; the administration of that sacrament can cause people to be healed from maladies that would’ve otherwise resulted in certain death. However, an interesting thing about this sacrament is that if someone is healed from a fatal malady, the Church would actually not consider that a miracle de jure but rather, sudden preternatural healings of that variety are actually considered merely an ordinary effect of that sacrament that sometimes occur.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Such a rich culture, and a beautiful heritage. Do they always say the same (?)litany(?) When they count the beads? Our ppl use them too, but not formal like that. We use beads to count the sayings of something, typically an affirmation
This one is one of my favs i dont know who wrote it
There is only one light. That light is God's light that light is perfect that light is my light now

Alternately with the word life used in place of light so
There is only one life. that life is God's life. That life is perfect. That life is my life now

This one causes really significant changes in my awareness. As an affirmation it would be repeated many times , which for me, right now is about 77 times

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I think i have catholic studybooks, not sure. Is this catholic? Its a two volume set, they were a "blem" covers didnt fit right. They were supposed to get thrown out, but they got rescued, from the trash bin.
It has a five year calendar in the back goes up to 2020

 

[Skittlebisquit]

The isbn for the set is1-886873-12-7

 

[Skittlebisquit]

I found it, this is from the Breviary, it's a quote that's attributed to thèrèse of lisieux,
Considering the mystical body of the church I had not recognized myself in any of the members... or rather I desire to see myself in them all. Charity gave me the key to my vocation. I understood that if the church had a body composed of different members the most necessary and the most noble of all could not be lacking to it and so I understood that the church had a heart and that this heart was burning with love. I understood it was love alone that made the church's members Act that if love ever became extinct Apostles would not preach the gospels and martyrs would not shed their blood.
I understood that love comprised all vocations that love was everything that it embraced all times and places..
In a word that it was eternal. Then in the excess of my Delirious Joy I cried out o Jesus, my love, my vocation, At Last I have found it my vocation is love.

From story of a soul,p 194
I used the auto dictate, so sorry no proper punctuation. Such a pretty thing to say

 

[SimonSays]

“Yes, He knows! But He pretends like He doesn’t know, He wants to hear it from you, He loves to listen to you!”

There's something nice about this answer. Reassuring. Personifying God as a parental father figure wanting to hear from his children. It's a nice image.

God, being all that is, can of course be this too. In my ancient tradition, we are not taught to see God this way. No images, no ideas are to be held. It doesn't stop people seeing God this way though because it isn't easy to see God any other way.

I have definitely felt the loving support of a divine father/mother when I've needed it, and sometimes it serves me very well to relate to God this way. But this idea does not stay with me. It is too simplistic. It was designed for the masses. For those uneducated and illiterate. Just like there are many levels of education, so there is with God too. And once those levels have been experienced, there is no longer any need for the ones that came before. People tend to stay on the level they feel most comfortable at. Nothing wrong with that. But it is not the whole truth, and as truth matters, eventually there will be a need to transcend it. In your vernacular, God wants us to come to him, to find him, to know him for who he is. To go beyond imagination. To go beyond interpretation. To go beyond dogma.

While it is easier to follow a well-trodden path at the beginning of a journey, perhaps essential to even begin the journey at all, to make new discoveries, one has to step off the path, find a new way, make a new path, that others may even follow, until they make their own way towards God, that does not have to contain anyone else's idea of what that should look like.

We are not all called to do that. Most are just looking for certainty, and the feeling of security that comes from belonging to something that others are also doing in the same way. Life is hard enough just dealing with every day things to do anything else. It is not necessary to understand the mechanism of the universe in order to know God.

I do wonder what Jesus would have made of what the church became in his name. He did not come here to create a new religion, although I'm sure it was always inevitable when you are essentially superseding what was already there. The trouble is what was already there never left, in fact it dug itself in deeper, and in many ways interferes with what came after. There needs to be a unification, with Islam; a trinity of law, love, and surrender. Instead of separation, division, and conflict.

While God may love to listen to us pray, understanding there is no judgement or dictator-like decision-making, but a reflection based on the vibration of the prayer, not the subject matter. So that when you ask God to do something that you believe will make things better, you must understand that if you are asking from a place of wanting something to change that you do not like, this is what gets reflected back. Which helps to explain why people think their prayers have not been answered.

So prayer works, but there is still a need to understand the deeper reality behind it, but to do that you would have to see God differently.

 

[Greatshield17]

Such a rich culture, and a beautiful heritage. Do they always say the same (?)litany(?) When they count the beads? Our ppl use them too, but not formal like that. We use beads to count the sayings of something, typically an affirmation
This one is one of my favs i dont know who wrote it
There is only one light. That light is God's light that light is perfect that light is my light now

Alternately with the word life used in place of light so
There is only one life. that life is God's life. That life is perfect. That life is my life now

This one causes really significant changes in my awareness. As an affirmation it would be repeated many times , which for me, right now is about 77 times

I found it, this is from the Breviary, it's a quote that's attributed to thèrèse of lisieux,
Considering the mystical body of the church I had not recognized myself in any of the members... or rather I desire to see myself in them all. Charity gave me the key to my vocation. I understood that if the church had a body composed of different members the most necessary and the most noble of all could not be lacking to it and so I understood that the church had a heart and that this heart was burning with love. I understood it was love alone that made the church's members Act that if love ever became extinct Apostles would not preach the gospels and martyrs would not shed their blood.
I understood that love comprised all vocations that love was everything that it embraced all times and places..
In a word that it was eternal. Then in the excess of my Delirious Joy I cried out o Jesus, my love, my vocation, At Last I have found it my vocation is love.

From story of a soul,p 194
I used the auto dictate, so sorry no proper punctuation. Such a pretty thing to say

The breviary and the Rosary actually have a connected history together; the breviary is a collection of prayers and psalms that make up the Divine Office, or Liturgy of the Hours of the Catholic Priesthood. The Divine Office came from the Old Covenant Jewish Priesthood and the prayers they said in the Temple, thus the Divine Office is a continuation of those prayers into the New Covenant Catholic Priesthood, as well as the Eastern Orthodox priesthoods and High Church Anglican and Lutheran ministers. The key part of the Divine Office was the Psalms, which came directly from the Biblical Book of Psalms.

In the Latin Vulgate Bible, there are 150 Psalms in the Book of Psalms, from this came the pious practice of saying the Our Father 150 times in reference to those 150 Psalms, this was done first using pebbles and then beads; what were known as “Paternoster beads.” (from Pater noster, “Our Father” in Latin) The practice of saying the Hail Mary 150 times also arose, this was an early version of the Rosary, but the Rosary itself didn’t appear until much later. In the 12th Century, in the French region of Occitania, there arose a heresy called Albigensianism, also known Catharism which could roughly be translated as “Puritanism;” it was a form of Gnosticism and holds the Gnostic dualist belief that all things spiritual are good and “pure,” while all things physical are “impure” and evil. In an effort to combat this heresy, St. Dominic travelled to the area to preach the True Gospel. But when St. Dominic got there, he found that his preaching wasn’t having a very good effect and few people turning back to the Catholic Faith, desperate, he began engaging in heavy-duty fasts and acts of prayer and penance in the hopes of gaining some spiritual advantage over the Albigensians; then one day, while preaching at a Church in Prouille, France, the Blessed Mother appeared to St. Dominic, I don’t remember the exact words She said to Her but it was something along the lines of,

“dear son, know that the best to win souls for God is to recite my Angelic Psalter.”

She then gave St. Dominic the Rosary. The Rosary consist of 150 Beads on which the Hail Mary is said on each and every bead. These beads are divided by larger into 15 sets of 10 beads called “decades;” on the larger beads, the Our Father is recited at the beginning of each decade and the Glory Be prayer at the end. (Though the Glory Be prayer, may have been added later.) There is also a “tail” of three more Hail Mary beads, and two larger Our Father, and Glory Be beads on either side them. While praying a decade of the Rosary one meditates on the life of Christs, these 15 meditations are known as “Mysteries” and these Mysteries are divided into three sets, the Joyful Mysteries, the Sorrowful Mysteries, and the Glorious Mysteries; this is why most Rosaries have only five decades and not all 15. These Mysteries emphasized the physical life of Christ and thus were perfect for combating the Albigensian teachings of the physical world being evil. I’d go into more details on these Mysteries but it’s really late here so I’ll save that for tomorrow, as well discus the Luminous Mysteries, and other prayers that had been added.

 

[Skittlebisquit]

Thank you you are a very.patient teacher

 

[Greatshield17]

There needs to be a unification, with Islam; a trinity of law, love, and surrender. Instead of separation, division, and conflict.

Are you a Muslim? A Sufi Muslim? Some of the things you said in your post does sound like some things I have heard about Sufism. It is an interesting form of Islam.

 

[SimonSays]

Are you a Muslim? A Sufi Muslim? Some of the things you said in your post does sound like some things I have heard about Sufism. It is an interesting form of Islam.

I'm not.

The trinity I refer to, if it wasn't obvious is...Judaism (law), Christianity (love), and Islam (surrender). All are needed to function as a whole. Each represents one part. Let them be One.