Research Shows Three Distinct Thought Styles In People With Autism

[Fino]

This thing about categorizing at the loss of information is probably very important to how biological creatures can function without going into “does not compute” mode and computers can’t so easily

Like, for example, maybe a domesticated Labrador retriever comes across a wild wolverine. Dog is bigger than the wolverine, so maybe he initially isn’t concerned about the wolverine being a threat, but wolverine has sharp teeth and is aggressive and moves fast and is a serious threat to the dog. If the dog fails to recognize things like sharp teeth and ferocious instincts and this creature is quick, the dog might be in real trouble. Dog has to categorize things like sharp teeth and speed and aggressive behavior in very simple terms and then decide to run away based on very simple categorizations if he doesn’t want to get his/her ass kicked

Or, say as humans, when ever we enter an unfamiliar setting and something looks like a chair and it’s in a place where chairs typically are, we just don’t even think and sit down on the chair. This is because we have over time built a category of “chair” and don’t waste time with endlessly examining each detail of some chair like thing.

Or, like the thing you said “the more categorizing the less reality, since with every label information is lost” is absolutely true, but this categorization thing seems to be absolutely essential to how humans can manage to function. It tends to have horrible side effects, such as racism and whatever else or, at the same time intolerance from the left from generalizing about what rural white people are like and so on. But humans can’t exist without this thing or they’ll become just as useless as a computer stuck in a “does not compute loop”. Like gestimating and overgeneralizing and having intuitions about things and so on are just necessary

Then, in a way, it seems like some autistics are a bit more like computers in being very literal, but therefore in being less inconsistent. Like things about how to approach a girl aren’t completely rational direct things. You can’t go up to a girl and say that I am reasonably intelligent and fairly muscular and I have reasonable income potential and expect this to work. Even autistic men grasp these things more naturally than computers do without some pretty sophisticated algorithms. One has to through crazy numbers of sophisticated categorizations and assumptions and so on just to solve how to go impress a girl, and it sort of does seem to boil down to simplifying the world at the loss of complete accuracy.

Or like there are crazy other things that biological creatures do that seem to go along the lines of like a natural game theory instinct or something, which is also really based upon things along the lines of categorizing

But this isn't a thread about chairs, it's about arbitrary distinctions in thought styles.

 

[Jumpback]

But this isn't a thread about chairs, it's about arbitrary distinctions in thought styles.

I know, but I was trying to respond to your specific statement in some long winded way

Some people just enjoy categorizing. And, of course, the more categorizing the less reality, since with every label information is lost.

Like my guess is that humans just kind of know what a kitchen plate is because they have built up all sorts of categorizing short cuts. Like an artificially intelligent robot might get confused and stack a frisbee in with the dishes because it has similar dimensions and it would be suitable to eat things off of.

 

[Pistachio]

I can't really do "types", I never seem to fit into any type model. I've gone for years trying to fit into for example, a right type or left type, and I just never seem to fit in all of them, it's frustrating.

As for those thought types, I don't have memory like a picture, and i can't memorize things by rote, but I'm not sure that I pick up patterns very well either. Or not the intended pattern anyway. But I do need to understand the reason about what I should do, not exactly a story, but something to get it in my brain since I don't just have fabulous memory. I would never survive in the military I guess, being commanded to do something without explanation.

I've recently thought that whenever there's a type that I don't really fit, there must be some other secret option that they're not suggesting, and I should just do what I want and throw out the expert's system after all.

 

[Jumpback]

I can't really do "types", I never seem to fit into any type model. I've gone for years trying to fit into for example, a right type or left type, and I just never seem to fit in all of them, it's frustrating.

As for those thought types, I don't have memory like a picture, and i can't memorize things by rote, but I'm not sure that I pick up patterns very well either. Or not the intended pattern anyway. But I do need to understand the reason about what I should do, not exactly a story, but something to get it in my brain since I don't just have fabulous memory. I would never survive in the military I guess, being commanded to do something without explanation.

I've recently thought that whenever there's a type that I don't really fit, there must be some other secret option that they're not suggesting, and I should just do what I want and throw out the expert's system after all.

*Just a bunch of things that occurred to me, please just ignore if it does not relate to you*

But with some people with crazy abilities, their abilities often come at the expense of other things. Like see maybe Kim Peek who "Rain Man" was based on. This guy needed around the clock care

Like I identify just a little tiny bit with savant syndrome and think that I can do certain things that others find hard, but people don't seem to realize that I really cannot seem to be able to be organized or cook like others can because I would need to locate ingredients and pots and pans and time things and so on. I am not just saying this, these things are really hard for me.

Like there was something in one of these personality types where high functioning autistics are less succeptable to the "framing effect." Which might possibly mean like if society in general is being influenced by conservative messages they might automatically assume a black person is guilty of something, or if society in general was influenced by liberal messages they might automatically assume a black guy is innocent. I did an experiment with such things in my research psychology class and it's crazy just how different people react when just a couple details are changed. Like maybe even ones skill might be just not being so succeptable to such things?

But, anyway, it might sound great to have some weird ability, but male computer geeks or whatever that can do crazy things sort of really do have issues with how to talk to girls and so on.

 

[Kalinychta]

I know, but I was trying to respond to your specific statement in some long winded way

Like my guess is that humans just kind of know what a kitchen plate is because they have built up all sorts of categorizing short cuts. Like an artificially intelligent robot might get confused and stack a frisbee in with the dishes because it has similar dimensions and it would be suitable to eat things off of.

So re: the chair thing: would the associative thinker see a chair but an analytical thinker would see the parts of the chair? Or vice versa? I’m super duper confused by the difference between the two.

 

[Jumpback]

So re: the chair thing: would the associative thinker see a chair but an analytical thinker would see the parts of the chair? Or vice versa? I’m super duper confused by the difference between the two.

My assumption would be the first thing you said is right. Like I identify more with associative, and I know that I tend to take just a few details and create all kinds of complex assumptions and probably categories and create like an intuitive guessing combination between all of them. Like I tend to make mistakes because I miss the details.

Where more of an analytical thinker might not make the same mistakes I make, like maybe I missed that a chair looking thing is actually an unusual plant stand and I just made a whole bunch of assumptions based on missing the details. But then an analytical thinker might be more plodding in the way they approach everything and take longer to find relationships between things.

But I might be misunderstanding something and these categories might not even have any scientific validity at all, or maybe I am just completely full of BS

 

[Jumpback]

I apologize if I have talked too much and messed up the conversation and gotten things off on some weird tangent

But this is kind of the problem why I so desperately want to whatever I do to be defined exactly. I tend to come up with all kinds of weird ideas that seem to sometimes be a mix of really great highly perceptive things and complete idiocy and I don't know which is which. I'd like to be around more centered normal people, but it would help to have some way to explain why I can be so odd both to myself and to other people. It's like I fit within autism spectrum, but almost because I don't fit anywhere else.

 

[cnn]

Back in the days when I was studying engineering, there was this Calculus class. For one of the problem, my solution was correct, but the result was irrelevant and I would end up 0, so I asked them to show me my mistake. 3 assistants spent 45 minutes and could not prove that I was wrong, so I got half the points.

There is no problem with associative thinking, the problem is getting lost in your own mind. I also think in web of visions, like a mind map, but I have to be analytical to find my way back to the reality and to be honest getting lost in your own mind is quite indulging. I am afraid that one day I will just let myself drift into the open space : )

Very interesting. I have the amazing ability to get to the right answer with the wrong backup in math. Like your answer is right, but your proof wrong so l have to mark it wrong. ( Because you copied somebody- NOT).
True logical thinking gets you in trouble because people start to not want to hangout with you. You have mask logical thinking with emotions. Is this the same associative thinking? I think of solutions like my life depends on it somehow. Maybe it's associative thinking with a OCD slant.

 

[Jumpback]

There is no problem with associative thinking, the problem is getting lost in your own mind. I also think in web of visions, like a mind map, but I have to be analytical to find my way back to the reality and to be honest getting lost in your own mind is quite indulging. I am afraid that one day I will just let myself drift into the open space : )

It’s really a challenge for me not to start doing this associative thinking thing all the time, especially when I am up against something real world that is more stressful for me than it is for others. I wish I could find a way to have a career doing this.

 

[cnn]

It’s really a challenge for me not to start doing this associative thinking thing all the time, especially when I am up against something real world that is more stressful for me than it is for others. I wish I could find a way to have a career doing this.

Unstructured Problem/ Solution careers are a good option to start with; Researcher, Consultant, Journalist, Writer, recently Youtube are good ways to start with. It depends on the quality of your output.

 

[rollerskate]

Wooooooow. Thank you so much for this. I seriously cannot thank you enough for it because I have been repeatedly misdiagnosed as bipolar because when I describe the way I think, all they seem to pull from it is racing thoughts, even though I don't HAVE racing thoughts. Everything branches out and it all connects and I see it all so much at once... it's too much... I dissociate, or I have a total nervous breakdown. I've learned it's really important to take breaks for mindfulness meditation, and to take a break as soon as I start feeling uncomfortable with my environment. Which basically means find somewhere private and quiet and dark where I can rock. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't care any more. Giving in to my craziness seems far healthier and helpful to me than trying to "act normal" all the time does. Normal is so exhausting.

 

[rollerskate]

Pattern thinker hack to becoming more verbal: Find the patterns in words and speech. No one will ever understand you again without some serious effort on your part to make sense to them, but you will MASTER language arts, lol.

 

[Aspychata]

Wooooooow. Thank you so much for this. I seriously cannot thank you enough for it because I have been repeatedly misdiagnosed as bipolar because when I describe the way I think, all they seem to pull from it is racing thoughts, even though I don't HAVE racing thoughts. Everything branches out and it all connects and I see it all so much at once... it's too much... I dissociate, or I have a total nervous breakdown. I've learned it's really important to take breaks for mindfulness meditation, and to take a break as soon as I start feeling uncomfortable with my environment. Which basically means find somewhere private and quiet and dark where I can rock. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't care any more. Giving in to my craziness seems far healthier and helpful to me than trying to "act normal" all the time does. Normal is so exhausting.

Yes, yes, yes. For some of us, our mind is sprinting to patterns of actions, thoughts. We are never at rest until we get it. I finally got that and stepped back from that thinking by telling myself you don't need to know what the outcome of this job, relationship is. Just take it one day at a time. Because that's not NT thinking. Do not obsess on things that are inherently undetermined due to the ambiguous parameters that are a constant. Like l said in another post, it's almost OCD thinking but l have finally stepped back. It was more pronounced in my earlier years. I think maturity really helps in this regard.

 

[rollerskate]

Yes, yes, yes. For some of us, our mind is sprinting to patterns of actions, thoughts. We are never at rest until we get it. I finally got that and stepped back from that thinking by telling myself you don't need to know what the outcome of this job, relationship is. Just take it one day at a time. Because that's not NT thinking. Do not obsess on things that are inherently undetermined due to the ambiguous parameters that are a constant. Like l said in another post, it's almost OCD thinking but l have finally stepped back. It was more pronounced in my earlier years. I think maturity really helps in this regard.

Maturity does help, but mindfulness meditation helps even more (in my case). 2E so that OCD thinking you mentioned is.... intense. Especially when I "sense" a pattern I can't fully identify and explain yet. This is where the disconnect happens, because I always end up telling them that this sometimes feels like I'm about to explode because I'm soaking up every scrap of info I can about that pattern, and my thoughts are doing that branching thing and I can't keep up WITH MY OWN BRAIN sometimes. This usually devolves into a meltdown if I don't find a way to address it.

Mindfulness meditation - learning to clear my thoughts and just focus on the present moment and surroundings - has been helping a ton. Also I have an alarm that reminds me every few hours to "stay calm," which just means that when it goes off, I do a mindfulness check (because I have issues identifying anxiety etc). If my body isn't feeling "right," I drop what I'm doing as soon as I can to do a mindfulness and breathing exercise. The breathing gives me a pattern to focus on OTHER than the really complicated one that is frying me.

I imagine the way I feel is probably much like Newton felt when he tried to explain his understanding of gravity. He knew it was real, understood it, felt it in his bones. But explaining it... ? Taking ALL that understanding in... ?

I also try to slow myself down a lot and censor my information flow (like avoiding upsetting world news, which immediately launches my "save the world" program which means me obsessing, sleuthing, trying to find all the probabilities, calculate the average chance of each, figure out which ones are the most likely to happen, and if they're bad, I won't be rid of THAT anxiety until it's passed). I'm trying to ask for more time to make decisions, too, instead of "just picking one" because I feel rushed to decide. I like to consider all the possibilities and which ones are more likely to be successful with everything I do. This sounds great until you get to know me and realize when I say that, I'm not just talking about important stuff. See how long it takes me to pick the flavor of ice cream-by I want.

I really am so grateful for this article though now that I finished reading it. It explained a lot. The whole top-down vs. bottom-up thing blew my mind. I thought I was top-down because I never understand the step-by-step guides, so I'll find a way to learn it from a completed project, intermediate study materials, etc. My big thing is I have to understand how it works before I can do anything with it. Those stupid step guides usually try to have you do some stupid exercises that incorporate these individual concepts one by one, like they're isolated, and they're usually NOT. Plus there's typically NO to LITTLE explanation of WTF you are doing. Right now I'm specifically thinking of programming language materials. They'll walk you through a hello world script, but I've got to learn all the syntax and how it "reasons" first for that project to actually help me learn. I've got an overall general pattern in logic, organization, and syntax pinned down. Many modern languages are starting to deviate from those standards, though, and set their own. Don't even talk to me about SQL.

 

[Aspychata]

Definitely we can take rumination to a whole new level as spectrum peeps. Pattern sluthing is more entertainment value at this point. But l have notice people step back and be surprised how l logically guided them to an answer that makes sense. We definitely have hardwiredmotherboards that just zoom ahead without the emotional wiring that didn't come with our system. It's like a awkward add-on that eventually we use because nobody will like us otherwise. I have understanding, l have empathy but l try my best to use this to help my understanding of a world that strikes me as imperfect and precarious.

 

[rollerskate]

Just male computer geeks? (semi-offended, but trusting you didn't mean it that way or are not aware that female computer geeks face MUCH bigger social issues just for being a minority within a minority)

Same here, and that's the problem with 2E. People tend to assume we're capable of everything including things they're not capable of. But in reality, we're capable of a lot of things they're not capable of.... but we're also incapable of a lot of things they are capable of and take for granted. Like, I am fantastic at whipping up my own gourmet style recipes, because of my sensory and outside the box creativity. But first, I have to get past functional issues, like horrible timing and memory. And if I try to follow someone else's recipe, I'll often screw up on following the instructions precisely unless I understand how everything works in the recipe to create the final product. I have to literally understand things to comply and work with them.

*Just a bunch of things that occurred to me, please just ignore if it does not relate to you*

But with some people with crazy abilities, their abilities often come at the expense of other things. Like see maybe Kim Peek who "Rain Man" was based on. This guy needed around the clock care

Like I identify just a little tiny bit with savant syndrome and think that I can do certain things that others find hard, but people don't seem to realize that I really cannot seem to be able to be organized or cook like others can because I would need to locate ingredients and pots and pans and time things and so on. I am not just saying this, these things are really hard for me.

Like there was something in one of these personality types where high functioning autistics are less succeptable to the "framing effect." Which might possibly mean like if society in general is being influenced by conservative messages they might automatically assume a black person is guilty of something, or if society in general was influenced by liberal messages they might automatically assume a black guy is innocent. I did an experiment with such things in my research psychology class and it's crazy just how different people react when just a couple details are changed. Like maybe even ones skill might be just not being so succeptable to such things?

But, anyway, it might sound great to have some weird ability, but male computer geeks or whatever that can do crazy things sort of really do have issues with how to talk to girls and so on.

 

[Aspychata]

Just male computer geeks? (semi-offended, but trusting you didn't mean it that way or are not aware that female computer geeks face MUCH bigger social issues just for being a minority within a minority)

Same here, and that's the problem with 2E. People tend to assume we're capable of everything including things they're not capable of. But in reality, we're capable of a lot of things they're not capable of.... but we're also incapable of a lot of things they are capable of and take for granted. Like, I am fantastic at whipping up my own gourmet style recipes, because of my sensory and outside the box creativity. But first, I have to get past functional issues, like horrible timing and memory. And if I try to follow someone else's recipe, I'll often screw up on following the instructions precisely unless I understand how everything works in the recipe to create the final product. I have to literally understand things to comply and work with them.

I have a female motherboard painted magenta.

I have always felt life may have been easier as a guy and use to give this some serious thought in my 20's.

 

[rollerskate]

Same, lol.

I have always felt life may have been easier as a guy and use to give this some serious thought in my 20's.