Socializing through music: does being in choir, a band, or roadie help socialize?

[AsheSkyler]

Right now, it might not matter, as I go for surgery to remove kidney stones in a week and a half.

Owwwww... O_O

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Owwwww... O_O

Oops, sorry, were you replying to me?

If so--Minister (aka rector, and vicar) is part-time, unhealthy, and a doting grandmother herself. She has a vacation and a sabbatical this year, and is acquiring a therapy dog. I don't think she realizes that she's advertising a power vacuum at the top. Like many who are good at pastoral care, she's not necessarily a good administrator. She'd love me to start up an adult education group, but I'm not feeling comfortable about it.

 

[AsheSkyler]

If so--Minister (aka rector, and vicar) is part-time, unhealthy, and a doting grandmother herself. She has a vacation and a sabbatical this year, and is acquiring a therapy dog. I don't think she realizes that she's advertising a power vacuum at the top. Like many who are good at pastoral care, she's not necessarily a good administrator. She'd love me to start up an adult education group, but I'm not feeling comfortable about it.

Maybe she'll end up advertising it in a good way and have a few good members step up and fill the void?

Oops, sorry, were you replying to me?

Nah, I was cringing over Meistersinger's upcoming surgery.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Maybe she'll end up advertising it in a good way and have a few good members step up and fill the void?

Well, it would work that way in a congregationalist-style church, but the point of the episcopate is a hierarchical structure. As aspie, I depend on that, because church goers are a very conventional bunch and can be cliquish as well. That's handled by responsiveness to the body being balanced by the porous authority of local lay leadership and the conferred authority on a rector/vicar/minister/priest (choose your term; technically the woman I'm talking about is a vicar, because she is an ordained priest but the organization she runs isn't self-supporting.)

(If this sounds like the checks and balances of American government, it won't surprise you to learn that the US government was actually designed by Anglicans making peace with Quakers, Puritans, Deists, and Catholics. Working desperately hard to, among other things, not refight the English Civil War.)

It's the ordained person in charge who has the last say, even though culturally they work really, really hard at bringing the congregants around to saying it first.

So what?

If "a few good members" step up, one of the central elements of episcopacy tips hard in the direction of protestantism. That's not who we are as a church culture. And it's also not as safe to be aspie when the conventional people take over. All the disadvantages of an aspie vastly outnumbered by neurotypicals who have surrendered some elements of critical thinking as well.

Thanks for giving me some space to lay this out. This is my soul's own wound this week.

 

[wyverary]

Orchestras, for me, not so much, as even though you might get acquainted with your section (and, if you are principal chair, the other principals), it's still a group of 40-60 people...

Chamber music was different for me. There's no one to lead, so there's a connection you have to develop with the other players. You spend time conversing with everyone, making the performance synergistic and full of life. It may not necessarily be friendship (though that certainly happened occasionally with me!) but no doubt it's intimate.

 

[AsheSkyler]

Well, it would work that way in a congregationalist-style church, but the point of the episcopate is a hierarchical structure. As aspie, I depend on that, because church goers are a very conventional bunch and can be cliquish as well. That's handled by responsiveness to the body being balanced by the porous authority of local lay leadership and the conferred authority on a rector/vicar/minister/priest (choose your term; technically the woman I'm talking about is a vicar, because she is an ordained priest but the organization she runs isn't self-supporting.)

(If this sounds like the checks and balances of American government, it won't surprise you to learn that the US government was actually designed by Anglicans making peace with Quakers, Puritans, Deists, and Catholics. Working desperately hard to, among other things, not refight the English Civil War.)

It's the ordained person in charge who has the last say, even though culturally they work really, really hard at bringing the congregants around to saying it first.

So what?

If "a few good members" step up, one of the central elements of episcopacy tips hard in the direction of protestantism. That's not who we are as a church culture. And it's also not as safe to be aspie when the conventional people take over. All the disadvantages of an aspie vastly outnumbered by neurotypicals who have surrendered some elements of critical thinking as well.

Thanks for giving me some space to lay this out. This is my soul's own wound this week.

You're quite welcome, and feel free to PM any other stuff if we run the risk of derailing the thread. I have very little experience with Catholic or Anglican churches, so it's fascinating to read.
Protestants are definitely a lot less formal, comparatively. "Hey, ya want the job?" "Yeah, sure." Except for preachers, they get voted in by the church. I think maybe there does have to be some voting for the rest of the staff, but that's usually held on conference night and meetings.

 

[Meistersinger]

You're quite welcome, and feel free to PM any other stuff if we run the risk of derailing the thread. I have very little experience with Catholic or Anglican churches, so it's fascinating to read.
Protestants are definitely a lot less formal, comparatively. "Hey, ya want the job?" "Yeah, sure." Except for preachers, they get voted in by the church. I think maybe there does have to be some voting for the rest of the staff, but that's usually held on conference night and meetings.

Not all protest churches are purely held to episcopal polity. Lutherans, depending on whether you belong to a Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, or Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod/Evangelical Lutheran Synod congregation vary widely in polity. ELCA, is sort of episcopal polity, as they have a bishop in each of their synods, but the local congregations are pretty much molded in congregational polity. LC-MS and WELS/ELS are definitely congregational in polity. In addition, each congregation calls whoever is on the call list from the synod or district for a pastor. Unlike some of the other mainline denominations, like the United Methodists, the United Church of Christ, and the Presbyterians, who move their pastors around every 3 to 5 years, Lutheran pastors tend to stay in one congregation or charge for more than 5 years. I know of several pastors that have stayed in one congregation for their entire career. The only ways a Lutheran pastor leaves a congregation is if he or she puts their name on the available for call list at the national, synodical or district level, and accepts a new call, or resigns in disgrace (the Catholics are not the only ones the pedophiles in the priesthood.)

 

[AsheSkyler]

Not all protest churches are purely held to episcopal polity. Lutherans, depending on whether you belong to a Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, or Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod/Evangelical Lutheran Synod congregation vary widely in polity. ELCA, is sort of episcopal polity, as they have a bishop in each of their synods, but the local congregations are pretty much molded in congregational polity. LC-MS and WELS/ELS are definitely congregational in polity. In addition, each congregation calls whoever is on the call list from the synod or district for a pastor. Unlike some of the other mainline denominations, like the United Methodists, the United Church of Christ, and the Presbyterians, who move their pastors around every 3 to 5 years, Lutheran pastors tend to stay in one congregation or charge for more than 5 years. I know of several pastors that have stayed in one congregation for their entire career. The only ways a Lutheran pastor leaves a congregation is if he or she puts their name on the available for call list at the national, synodical or district level, and accepts a new call, or resigns in disgrace (the Catholics are not the only ones the pedophiles in the priesthood.)

Aye, most pastors with the Baptist follow much the same pattern of about 3-5 years before they feel called to go elsewhere. A few will hang in there longer, like one from my hometown that's been there a good ten years or so. We had a preacher that stuck it out for 52 years, until the day he died. Everybody loved him, he adored the church, and nobody wanted to vote him out or see him go. Then his successor bailed after a couple of years and quit preaching altogether, since one of the Baptist rules is that you cannot be divorced. And he was getting divorced.
I've had to dodge a deacon before. I think pedophilia is just common and churches only attract attention because they tend to be so vocally against sex all the time.

 

[JuniperBug]

I started choir through school in second grade, and also went to special music camps for choirs in the summers. I was in the top choirs and after school choirs of middle school, then was accepted into the chamber choir of my high school, of which became the president. I was chosen for All State there and, after that, was recruited into the chamber choir and music program of a local college.

(I didn't realize how braggy that sounded until I typed it...but it's one of my few accomplishments and I'm proud, so I'm choosing to leave it. If it makes anyone feel better, I didn't graduate with music; I changed majors)

Anyway, the point is, choir has always been at the forefront of my life until now (post college) so I definitely took it for granted. Without choir, I wouldn't have been working with people everyday. I wouldn't have gone to gifted summer programs or state competitions with hundreds of peers. I would have worked quietly in school and stayed home in summer. I definitely wouldn't have been the president of anything or had a reason to get myself noticed and recruited into college.

So I owe choir a lot and, besides my luck in getting noticed for talent, just being in choir itself I believe was invaluable in illustrating the power of people working together. Singing with others requires hard work, cooperation, patience, willingness to help and A LOT OF TRUST. I found my voice in choir and I made friends with talented and dedicated people. I'd recommend it to anyone.

 

[Datura]

I have played in bands, on and off, most of my life.

I find music is a tremendous social catalyst. It literally brings people together. Many sub cultures, religions, and political movements organize around. You could argue that all art has this effect, but I think music does so more than the others.

Personally; music has brought me closer to my fammily and resulted in some lasting friendships. In high school and as a young adult my bands were practically the only social life I had. I had difficulty approaching people, but with the pretense of being part of a band those social barriers disappeared.

As an adult I find it is much more difficult to form a band. Like minded musicians are geographically dispirate and tend to have conflicting schedules. Add to this the fact that my musical tastes are a bit unusual and that just makes matters more difficult.

I do play in a rock cover band right now, but outside of the band itself it really doesn't enhance my social life. I have very little in common with the people we play for. Their idea of a good time is getting drunk and stoned, mine is playing board games and having deep discussions. When I am not on stage at a gig I really don't know what to do with myself.

I suppose I need to start making music for my type of person. The type of person who dances freely, alone in a crowd, then heads to the sidelines to have a thoughtful discussion. Is there a place for such people?

 

[Naturalist]

I've liked the idea of playing music with others, because I love going to small-setting live acoustic performances (often coffeehouse jam sessions) and watching the band members interact with one another. But my experience of playing with others has not been very positive.

In grade school I was in the choir, and although I am tolerably skilled as a singer I didn't like the practice of trying to make one's voice blend with all the others. It felt unnatural not to maximize certain vocal techniques like vibrato where they felt comfortable or appropriate.

In middle school my mom wanted me to socialize more so she encouraged me to join the band. I played clarinet but I kept getting in trouble because the folding chairs were uncomfortable and so I slouched or let my knees go apart rather than together and to the side, and the nun in charge was always scolding me for being lazy and immodest. Plus, if I lost my place in the music I never gained the knack of skipping a measure or two and picking up again. The high school had a marching band but I cannot imagine trying to coordinate marching with playing an instrument. I have a very difficult time walking when all I am doing is walking

I have played the violin for many years now on my own and am especially good at improvisation, I can play for many many minutes on end and my husband will ask what I am playing but it is all just made up. I am less good with existing tunes, even ones which I have practiced a lot. For a while I was going to jam sessions but I spent most of the session sitting there lost, plus a man at one of them lectured me that I would never be able to play anything if I didn't take any formal lessons, which was clearly untrue since I could already play many things...just not at the same tempo or in the same key as the others.

Now I am happy to play on my own, while I enjoy watching the interactions other musicians have with the members of their band. Music in groups just seems to be another instance of social fail for me.

 

[GFHandel]

I am an ardent chorister and for me singing in a choir definitely helps in socializing. The closest acquaintances I have made during last 2 years on my university are people from my choir. Sometimes, after a choir rehearsal we go to a nearby cafe for an informal meeting. Now students have holidays and the choir doesn't organise rehearsals, so I search for a different choir, because I miss the choral singing.

 

[Beverly]

I work in the music industry and, used to be in a band. When it was a small, not very famous band it was hard because we did all of the gig arrangements and set up ourselves. We had to book venues, plan routes, plan the entire tour ourselves and, even though that was only in three states, it was hard when I couldn't control every detail of the tour and each stage setup.

Later I got in with a more popular band, still not a superstar band but, we did tour the 48 lower states. We had a stage crew but still had to arrange the tour ourselves so, that was a bit easier because I had more input on how the tour would go and, what venues made sense for us.

Finally I made it into a superstar class band, a band that payed worldwide stadium tours. We had a full crew from tour managers to stage hands, publicist, the PR team, wardrobe people, set designers, makeup artists, craft (on location food service catering) even a maid for the tour bus. Each of us had two personal body guards, and there were five more guards that also served a security during concerts and, as our personal concierge service when we weren't on stage. Then I could relax, someone else was responsible for everything, all I had to do was play, sing and, dance and, ask for whatever I wanted or needed.

Music is its own language and, musicians and and songwriters tend to talk of little else when we get together. We have a common interest and, shared expertise so, in that respect it does make socializing easier. Even when we are not talking about music, we have a lot of experiences in common and that make it easier to relate to and understand each other.

In general, I pass as near, if not completely NT among fellow musicians but, where I had difficulty was when we had do a meet and greet with fans, or had to do a casual, semi unscripted interview. Then I was never certain of what or how mush to say. Like many of us, I learned to portray myself as shy, soft spoken and just give short, basic answers. Not because I didn't know more details but, because it was better to err on the side of not saying enough than to say too much.

I am not shy, wary of strangers more than an NT would be but, I am not shy about speaking my mind. Other often don't like it, but that isn't going to get me to shut up. They can listen or leave, it makes no difference either way to me. Unless it for professional reasons, I'm not going to hold my tongue or, lie simply to appear polite.

On stage, with the microphone on, with cameras pointed at me, any other musician is a fabulous performer, looks perfect, writes great songs and, I like the style of music they play. In private, some of them have no stage presence, can't dance, play music I can't stand and, write garbage but, I know better than to say that publicly, that would be career suicide.

I think the training from PR people and publicists is why there are famous Aspies whom we don't know are Aspies, or even Autistic.

I would say that music allows us to communicate more easily, if music is one of out talents but, if we make a career of it, it also teaches us to hide our ASD much more than we would have otherwise.

 

[Datura]

Beverly; as a frustrated musician I find the stories of your career fascinating. I have a strong desire to get my act together and start creating original music again. One attitude I constantly run up against, however, is that I am not the rocker "type". I don't smoke, drink alcohol, or do any drugs aside from caffeine and tourine in the form of soft drinks. I am naturally shy and reserved, despite my sometimes wild appearance. I also feel uncomfortable at parties and would much rather be playing a board game or reading a book than doing what other people consider fun. Can one get away with being a nerdy, bookish rocker?

When I was a teenager I played in a political punk band. This was the closest I ever came to experiencing fame. Going about the city I would sometimes find myself accosted by younger teenage girls who had seen us perform. This was always awkward for me. Though I would love to have my music appreciated by a wide audience the notion of being recognized on the street (or worse yet, unable to safely walk about on my own) is abhorrent to me. It would be nice if one could simply be famous on stage and anonymous when they stepped off.

 

[wyverary]

I don't smoke, drink alcohol, or do any drugs aside from caffeine and tourine in the form of soft drinks.

Tom Waits, Neil Young, and Frank Zappa are a few exceptions to this stereotype that I can think of. Tom Waits used to be an addict, but once he got off the booze his music only got more experimental and strange and interesting. Zappa was vehemently against drug use, and in my opinion he was one of the most ingenious, inventive, and talented rockers of the 20th century. So I wouldn't hold that up as a standard for being "famous" or "inventive"... After all, as brilliant as one is, the 27 Club is one of which I would prefer not to be a member.

 

[Datura]

After all, as brilliant as one is, the 27 Club is one of which I would prefer not to be a member.

I'm 30, so I've outlived a lot of the greats already. It makes me worry that I may be too old to start a serious career.
*shakes head* But I can't think that way.

 

[wyverary]

I'm 30, so I've outlived a lot of the greats already. It makes me worry that I may be too old to start a serious career.
*shakes head* But I can't think that way.

Amanda Palmer once famously said in response to "What should my Plan B be?" that "You shouldn't have a Plan B". I disagree entirely with that statement, but at the same time I think one should give their entire being and soul into what they love, even if it doesn't wind up being their primary career. One should be able to do what they love, but being able to eat is not exactly optional, in my humble opinion.

Bear in mind, I say this coming from the world of the arts. There was a time when I would have loved seeking a career as an orchestral musician. There are various reason my hopes were dashed, but among them was my learning that the world of performance is intensely competitive and I just don't have the mental or emotional fortitude to endure that. But if you do? Give it your all! If you're doing what you love, and can still afford to eat three meals a day, then I would consider that an unbridled success, fame and fortune be damned.

 

[Cerulean]

I was in a band for awhile a year or so ago, and while yes it technically helped it also made some things worse. Like when you say you play people will want to just jam with you (I hate improv and avoid at all costs), or suggest adding you to their band sometimes (more new people and unpredictable jamming, no thanks). It did help with some confidence stuff and being uncomfortable being the center of attention. I don't know if I had stage fright before but I don't think I do anymore now.

 

[Beverly]

Beverly; as a frustrated musician I find the stories of your career fascinating. I have a strong desire to get my act together and start creating original music again. One attitude I constantly run up against, however, is that I am not the rocker "type". I don't smoke, drink alcohol, or do any drugs aside from caffeine and tourine in the form of soft drinks. I am naturally shy and reserved, despite my sometimes wild appearance. I also feel uncomfortable at parties and would much rather be playing a board game or reading a book than doing what other people consider fun. Can one get away with being a nerdy, bookish rocker?

When I was a teenager I played in a political punk band. This was the closest I ever came to experiencing fame. Going about the city I would sometimes find myself accosted by younger teenage girls who had seen us perform. This was always awkward for me. Though I would love to have my music appreciated by a wide audience the notion of being recognized on the street (or worse yet, unable to safely walk about on my own) is abhorrent to me. It would be nice if one could simply be famous on stage and anonymous when they stepped off.

As Cerulean mentions, when you say that you write or play music be prepared to jam, or have a working session. Here's one that the band responsible has not had removed yet. First a working session, the the song it became. This is very impromptu and may not make much sense, it's also loud and off key at points. This is how it's done and, if you want a career playing or writing music, you have to get used to this sort of thing and, learn to join in such session and have fun with it.

Working Session

Same song in it's finished state

You absolutely do not have to get into the SDR&R (ses, drugs, rock n' roll) scene to be accepted in the industry. Publicity teams actually would rather you didn't, keeping that out of the press is a monumental task, especially if you get arrested or, caught on a cell phone video doing something illegal. Bands and fellow musicians don't care so long as you don't make a big deal about it. Refuse whatever is offered politely and, keep your mouth shut about it if they use drugs. They will actually respect you more if you don't do anything illegal, even if they do it themselves.

If you want to launch a career in music, you have to be ready to face rejection time and time again. There are 100 "no" for every single "yes" in this industry. You have to persistent and, determined to make it as a songwriter and/or performer. You can't let any fear of talking to the powerful people that can make or break your career show.

Any career in music is going to start small, local performers, a band playing bars for tips, talent nights, free concerts in the park. Then you move up to Theaters, paid, but low paying gigs, still pretty much local, with a few regional (neighboring state) gigs. After that, assuming you made your mark there, it national, your music will begin to be heard on radios, and, you'll pay arenas in your own country. Next comes world tour arenas. You are touring the world but, it's still arenas and, the only pay yo get is the profit left over after expenses from ticket sales, not the best but it's an upper middle class income at this point.

Finally that magic day happens, you are on stage, in a sold out stadium. Ten thousand or more fans, all screaming, chanting, begging you to perform for them. Your band commands $500,000.00 to 1 million dollars to even agree to play the venue and, sponsors gladly pay it. You get all of that plus the profits left from ticket sales, which are tremendous now (One seat can cost $1,000.) You do that for as long as you can, then you step off the stage and find a quiet place to enjoy the last 20 or 30 years of your life.

If you do it, like me you will know the toll it took on your body, you know you won't live to see a nursing home. I'm 49 and, I will be amazed if I see age 70. I expect I have 20 years left, maximum and, probably less but, I'm going to relax, write my songs and, enjoy what's left of my life in peace and relative quiet. (Unless I get an offer I can't refuse, then I may die on stage as a few before me have.)

 

[Datura]

That jam session was delightful.
As silly as it was, I could also tell it was really productive.
And it's true, jamming is a messy process (perhaps how it got its name?) but it is a great way to form ideas as a group. It is much like being in the lab, trying different things to see what works and what doesn't. You will make mistakes, but you learn from them and present your audience with your best results.
There is a jam session I did with my band a while ago. I have it recorded on a cell phone. It's a really simple hard rock tune, but the energy is infectious. I should make that the first thing I record as I rise from the proverbial ashes of depression.