The culture of lying

[Jonn]

As a traditional aspie, I have a problem with lying.
Unfortunately, we seem to be at the pinnacle of deception in my living memory.
Sad but true.

 

[Jumpinbare]

Yes, so many people buying into so many delusions now. I also have difficulty with lying. While still young, I read Samuel Clemons' comment on truth vs lies. It's much easier to just tell the truth - then you don't have to keep all the lies straight. I took it to heart then, and still do. I have learned it is often wise to not just blurt out everything. I learned that judiciously not dispensing sensitive truths is a valuable social skill, but if pressed I'm not going to tell "white lies" if I can avoid it.

 

[Misty Avich]

I've never been able to relate to the Aspie code of "truth is easier/better than lies". While I'm not a fake friend or anything and like to be honest in a respectful loyal sort of way, I'm not the sort to give unwanted truths. Offline it is much harder for me to tell the truth in a lot of situations. I find that lying is often easier.

 

[Xinyta]

Yes. It is an unfortunate turn of events that we now live in a world that accepts lying as the norm. Echo chambers and narcissism create isolation, in the end.

It's a trap I find myself stuck in. And I still haven't broken it. Hopefully this'll change one day soon.

 

[Jonn]

Yes, so many people buying into so many delusions now.

The problem is mainly two-fold, in my mind:

Many people lack critical thinking skills, and many want to be part of a community, embracing blind groupthink as a result.
The hustler knows how to manipulate their marks.

While a mob-mentality is as old as civilisation, the audacious bald-faced lies of these modern times are astonishing.
I have seen blatant lies denying the obvious, easily verifiable reality, believed by clueless groupies, or worse, those who are complicit in disseminating disinformation.

As I have said, in the past, the dearth of critical thinking skills is staggering.

I also have difficulty with lying. While still young, I read Samuel Clemons' comment on truth vs lies. It's much easier to just tell the truth - then you don't have to keep all the lies straight.

That isn't what inspires my value in honesty.
To me, honesty is part of the journey towards credibility, and integrity.

There are people in the community who have time and time again, shown they see no value in honesty.
There comes a point where their credibility is so low, due to so many examples of deceit, I simply ignore anything that is said by them, understanding that some truth can be thrown into the mix via tokenism.

I took it to heart then, and still do. I have learned it is often wise to not just blurt out everything. I learned that judiciously not dispensing sensitive truths is a valuable social skill, but if pressed I'm not going to tell "white lies" if I can avoid it.

There is absolutely time where judicious honesty should be practiced, imo.
I don't like it, but this is not a perfect world, and humanity is extremely flawed, necessitating conscious decision-making into when, or when not to disclose certain information.
Thankfully, for me, that is rare.

I find encountering an obvious pathological liar both disturbing, and fascinating.

 

[vergil96]

and many want to be part of a community, embracing blind groupthink as a result.

This is so annoying!

I find encountering an obvious pathological liar both disturbing, and fascinating.

True, those are curious cases. Some people lie as if it was an addiction, it gives them nothing, it serves no purpose, but telling a truth obvious to everyone would be impossible for them. I encountered people lying about the simplest things, like what they ate, what they did during the weekend when they did the most normal things, what music they listen to.

 

[Misty Avich]

Often Aspies hate judgement but isn't some forms of judgement just truth-telling? I often see things on autism sites that I find are a bit extreme but I still feel I have to say something nice rather than give my honest opinion, even if my honest opinion isn't belittling or bullying or anything.

If anything, had I not told so many truths on the other site, I would never have been banned.

 

[Jonn]

This is so annoying!


True, those are curious cases. Some people lie as if it was an addiction, it gives them nothing, it serves no purpose, but telling a truth obvious to everyone would be impossible for them. I encountered people lieing about the simplest things, like what they ate, what they did during the weekend when they did the most normal things, what music they listen to.

My definition of "Pathological liar" is a little more relaxed than yours.
It invokes a lack of a moral compass by those who are amoral.

"Amorality" is a rather fascinating concept.
There are interesting avenues of investigation available to us, these days.

 

[Jonn]

Amorality is a lack of moral principles or values. It can also mean being indifferent to or incapable of morality.



Examples of amorality

• Describing a movie as having "unashamed amorality"
• Describing someone as "an amoral, selfish person"
• Describing a business competition as "cynical and amoral"
• Describing someone as "amoral politicians"

Synonyms for amoral immoral, ruthless, unconscionable, unethical, and unprincipled.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Amorality

Pathological lying, and amorality, seem to have a direct link.
A moral compass does interfere with a deceptive mindset, after all.
Being free of the burden of maintaining integrity is a great liberator when engaging in deceitful/corrupt practices.

 

[Jonn]

Often Aspies hate judgement but isn't some forms of judgement just truth-telling? I often see things on autism sites that I find are a bit extreme but I still feel I have to say something nice rather than give my honest opinion, even if my honest opinion isn't belittling or bullying or anything.

Elsewhere, you have been severely punished simply for having your own opinion.
I can understand your reticence in open and honest self-expression. <hug>

If anything, had I not told so many truths on the other site, I would never have been banned.

<hug>

 

[Masked Man]

Yes, so many people buying into so many delusions now. I also have difficulty with lying. While still young, I read Samuel Clemons' comment on truth vs lies. It's much easier to just tell the truth - then you don't have to keep all the lies straight. I took it to heart then, and still do. I have learned it is often wise to not just blurt out everything. I learned that judiciously not dispensing sensitive truths is a valuable social skill, but if pressed I'm not going to tell "white lies" if I can avoid it.

I think Aspies have a hard time discerning "lying" from "keeping their opinion to themselves."

As an example: a person doesn't like someone's haircut. Fine. They don't have to say they like it. They can say nothing. Or they can say something neutral "that looks very neatly trimmed."

My personal rule of thumb in a social situation is to keep my mouth shut about my opinion. I'm not the boss and what I think usually does not need to be said.

 

[Jonn]

I think Aspies have a hard time discerning "lying" from "keeping their opinion to themselves."

As an example: a person doesn't like someone's haircut. Fine. They don't have to say they like it. They can say nothing. Or they can say something neutral "that looks very neatly trimmed."

My personal rule of thumb in a social situation is to keep my mouth shut about my opinion. I'm not the boss and what I think usually does not need to be said.

There are "Lies of omission"...
And then there are "Lies of omission..."
It is dependent on one's intention.

 

[Masked Man]

There are "Lies of omission"...
And then there are "Lies of omission..."
It is dependent on one's intention.

I think an example would help. In a social situation, what would you consider a lie

 

[Jonn]

I think an example would help. In a social situation, what would you consider a lie

One type of "lies of omission" involves the intent to deceive.
Another type of "lies of omission" involves the intent to protect.

 

[Misty Avich]

I think for me it's more a case of 'I can't always help myself'. Online it seems even easier to comment without considering the consequences, maybe because you want to be heard and it's easier to be heard when you're behind a screen, even for NTs (although that doesn't excuse rude or upsetting replies). In real life I'm more selective of what I say, but more impulsive with my actions than with my words, while online I'm more impulsive with my words. But that is why I know I have empathy, because my empathy acts as a filter for the impulse to saying nasty trollish things to people online. We've all done it very occasionally as an honest mistake but generally I don't go around abusing people and personally attacking them, simply because I don't like the same happening to myself.

 

[Jonn]

I think for me it's more a case of 'I can't always help myself'. Online it seems even easier to comment without considering the consequences,

I am the direct opposite, even with my ADHD.
I prefer online interaction because it gives me all the time I need to consider my responses.

maybe because you want to be heard and it's easier to be heard when you're behind a screen, even for NTs (although that doesn't excuse rude or upsetting replies). In real life I'm more selective of what I say, but more impulsive with my actions than with my words, while online I'm more impulsive with my words.

Interesting.

 

[Kayla55]

Curious about living a lie....
Would it bother another aspire if huge chunks of their life were borrowed from others lives Nd were not really meaningful to the person except for their fake image they portray to the world.
If one sees somebody else doing stuff and copies, makes huge media spread to publicise and convince others that it's their truth, would that make it real?

 

[Shevek]

I think that the root of this problem is that people don't understand the difference between the home, and its system of morality, and the commons. Within a happy home, there are often many white lies used to meet the needs of people who need shelter from the world's harshness. Santa Claus and the Boogie Man help children behave before they can really understand why they should. Ugly haircuts are declared successful, because there is nothing to be gained by being sad until it grows out. Nothing ever indicates that a woman is fat or ugly. The provider may not be the bio-dad, but rather a sterile cuckold enjoying the parental role.
Outside the home, we have to deal with grown-ups, with roughly equal maturity and perception, but the temptation to extend the realm of designated, rather than proven truth out into a "homeland" brings conflict that can't just be taken outside.

 

[Misty Avich]

I am the direct opposite, even with my ADHD.
I prefer online interaction because it gives me all the time I need to consider my responses.


Interesting.

It is quite ironic that I'm more impulsive when posting online, but I think it might be down to habit and addiction. I feel I have to post what's on my mind. I'm expressive in real life too but in a different sort of way. Online I feel I can "let my hair down" and sometimes get carried away. Maybe posting online is a "fill your boats" thing, and add ADHD impulsives to that, results can become disastrous.

 

[FoxLovinPat]

Bear with me on this as I have quite a bit to say, like two posts worth maybe.. heh.

But I remember learning while growing up that if you lie then you'll lose your credibility and not be believed anymore, and I experienced this myself due to the fact I did lie a bunch.. mostly that I did my homework or studied.
So that when I would tell the truth my father wouldn't believe it and would require proof that I was telling the truth in this instance.
I'm not entirely sure why I lied, best I got is that I would've gotten in big trouble either way but lying bought me some extra time before the inevitable punishment.. basically just until my father got home as he was the punisher of the family.

Anyways where I'm going with this is it seems in recent years that the lesson I learned growing up doesn't seem to apply anymore, as politicians and news has taken to lying a lot more and yet they don't lose credibility.. in fact people believe the lies and deny the truth when it comes up and claim that the truth is actually a lie.
We seem to be living in a time of alternative facts, where a scary amount of people seem to live in an alternative reality from our own where lies are truth and truth are lies.
Used to be that politicians would lose credibility for saying or doing various things but seems that time is long past, and no matter what a politician says or does there'll be a bunch of people who still support and follow them, despite the truth that they're not qualified, or that they're a horrible person. "Nah!" they say, "Those are lies by the opposition!" Think about some of the stuff that's come out about current politicians, and think back to politicians who also had similar things come out about them.. again back then that ruined their chances of being elected, but that's not really a thing anymore apparently.

Moving on from that and onto a side topic I've seen people talk about here in the comments..
I still lie regularly, but now it's more protective lies/witholding the truth for I know if it came out then there'd be hell to pay.. in some cases literally.
The two main examples of this are hiding my relationship and sexuality from my parents, maintaining the ruse around them that I'm still single and just "haven't found the right girl yet". Why? Because my father is homophobic and wouldn't take it very well.. would probably try and get me to dump my current bf because what I'm doing is "sinful".
The other example is that I left the faith, and so I keep up the ruse that I didn't and that I still go to church and believe. The reason why I hide this is because if the truth came out, I'd never hear the end of it on how I need to "turn back to god before it's too late!".

So sometimes we have to lie to protect ourselves or others is what I'm saying.
And also that autistic people can lie, but then again maybe I'm an exception?

Edit: Forgot to include the section on news media lies.
It's actually rather difficult these days to find truthful unbiased news, but I dunno maybe the news has always been this way and it's just gotten worse lately.
Same deal with what I said about not losing credibility, it seems that news groups don't lose credibility and maybe even gain credibility despite spreading lies, disinformation, and misinformation. And like I said with politicians it seems that when their lies are called out and fact checked people just don't believe that's true and believe that's actually a lie.
So ya it's definitely the case that are culture has normalized lying, and it's to the point that the truth is considered lies by some people because they believe the lies more than the truth.

Also sorry for going into politics so much, I didn't name any specific examples and kept it vague end general because I know the policy around here.