The culture of lying

[Jonn]

Pathological liar​

A liar who lies incessantly to get their way and does so with little awareness. Some experts define a pathological liar as one who has lied five or more times a day, for six months or longer.

• Pathological lying is viewed as a coping mechanism developed in early childhood and is often associated with some other types of mental health disorders like antisocial personality disorder. It could be that they lie to avoid something traumatic that happened in their lives, such as abuse, or the condition may be genetic.
• When it comes to pathological liars, it is observed that people who have antisocial personality disorder (APD) and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) indulge in lying.
• A pathological liar is often goal-oriented (i.e., focused, one tells lies to get their way).
• They have very little regard or respect for the rights and feelings of others.
• They are often considered manipulative and cunning.
• They create extravagant stories that may be maintained or tweaked over time, and they often believe their lies or have a weak grip on reality.
• Unlike compulsive liars, pathological liars are nearly impossible to catch in the act. These people are excellent liars because they lie constantly and make stories up unnecessarily, and often, it becomes extremely difficult to distinguish the truth from false statements.
• Pathological liars know how to be confident while lying and use their pathological lying trait as a defense mechanism (e.g. they fix their gaze upon you rather than looking away).
• Some of the symptoms of a pathological liar are: they lie to gain something, exaggerate things, and they keep on changing their stories, living in a false sense of "reality." If confronted, they act defensive and never admit that they are liars. Lastly, pathological liars hold no value for truth.

 

[Jonn]

Compulsive liar​

A liar who lies out of habit.

• Compulsive liars bend the truth about everything, large or small. For a compulsive liar, telling the truth is very awkward and uncomfortable, while lying feels right.
• Lying compulsively is a habit usually thought to develop in early childhood, due to being placed in an environment where lying is necessary and routine.
• A lot of them find it easy to avoid confrontations with the truth, hence they stick to lying.
• Compulsive liars may or may not experience a mental disorder. Usually, it is observed that people with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), bipolar disorder, and borderline personality disorder resort to lying compulsively.
• Compulsive liars are not overly manipulative and cunning (see, Pathological Liar), rather they simply lie out of habit, which is an automatic response that is hard to break and one that takes its toll on a relationship.
• Compulsive liars lie for several reasons. However, it may always be easy to find out if they are lying, because their stories usually do not add up.
• They are also obvious and display classic lying behaviors, such as avoiding eye contact, breaking out into a sweat, and tripping over their words or rambling.
• They often lie for no clear reason, and sometimes, for no real benefit, they make lies up more spontaneously, don't do much thinking, and prefer to tell the sorts of lies that they think people want to hear.
• They know the difference between reality and lies.
• They are more likely to admit to lying when confronted, though this might not stop them from continuing to lie.

 

[Jonn]

What is the connection between lying and a lack of morality?

AI Overview
Learn more

Lying can be seen as a violation of trust and a disregard for truth, which are foundational elements of morality and ethical behavior, therefore, lying is often associated with a lack of morality.


Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Lying as a Violation of Trust:
  Morality often emphasizes honesty and integrity, and lying directly contradicts these values by intentionally deceiving others.

• 
  
• Lying and Moral Disengagement:
  When people lie, they often engage in moral disengagement, justifying their actions to themselves and potentially to others, which can lead to a further erosion of moral principles.
  
  
• 
  
• Lying and the Erosion of Social Fabric:
  Lying can damage relationships and undermine social trust, which are crucial for the functioning of a society.
  
  
• 
  
• Lying and Autonomy:
  When someone lies, they are potentially infringing on the autonomy of others by preventing them from making informed decisions based on the truth.
  
  
• 
  
• Moral Frameworks and Lying:
  Different moral frameworks (e.g., deontology, utilitarianism) may have varying perspectives on the permissibility of lying, but most recognize it as a moral issue.
  
  
• 
  
• Examples of Lying and Lack of Morality:
  Consider lying to avoid responsibility, lying to gain an unfair advantage, or lying to manipulate others; these actions often reflect a disregard for ethical principles

Google Search

 

[Jonn]

I'm a liar now, unless I use all words 100% literally.

NeoNatal brought up the insightful observation, that not all ppl on the autistic spectrum are black & white, literal thinkers.
Both he, and I, seem to be on the "grey scale", here.

 

[Misty Avich]

I'm not the sort to tell lies that will hurt people. My partner loves me because of my honesty, but like everyone else I am capable of lying if I feel I need to or if there's a reason, etc. Or maybe because I just don't feel like explaining the full story so I just bend the truth a little, which I don't really class as lying as such. When you get to know me personally I use less white lies if at all. But when just posting on a forum where I make several posts a day sometimes my current circumstances can fluctuate depending on how I'm feeling at the time and the context given in a conversation or a thread.

A bit like if a person who lives in Scotland may say he's British in some contexts but not in others. But it isn't a big lie that is hurting anyone, the only time it can be a big deal is if you lie about your ethnicity on an application form or something, if that sort of information is essential.

 

[Misty Avich]

NeoNatal brought up the insightful observation, that not all ppl on the autistic spectrum are black & white, literal thinkers.
Both he, and I, seem to be on the "grey scale", here.

Yes, I'm certainly not a black and white literal thinker, although sometimes I may come across like that. It all comes down to the context of a situation. A bit like I find myself approaching most situations with social maturity, then all of a sudden I might approach a situation like a whirlwind and come across as "immature". But I think every argument always leads to at least one party calling the other "childish" even when they're not being childish. It's just a way to get the last word, a bit like words like "that's offensive" and "you're a racist".

It reminds me of an argument I once witnessed in a grocery store. A customer was arguing with a cashier, and the cashier was approaching the situation calmly and professionally and just within the company policy, but because the customer didn't like it she ended up calling the cashier "immature and childish", probably because she knew she'd lost the fight. I don't think either of them were being childish though, especially not the cashier, but not the customer either for that matter. The customer might have been having a bad day, or maybe she might have emotional regulation issues, or maybe to her the company policy might have seemed unfair.
But calling each other childish is just crap. Can't adults have emotions? Can't adults stand up for ourselves? Can't adults make mistakes sometimes?

 

[Misty Avich]

Also it's odd how Aspies on forums like this often talk about NTs being the liars that just lie all the time, but if an Aspie lies we're suddenly bad people.

Not referring to Jonn by the way, just speaking in general.

 

[Jonn]

I'm not the sort to tell lies that will hurt people. My partner loves me because of my honesty, but like everyone else I am capable of lying if I feel I need to

I would NEVER lie, under any circumstances.
If the FSB were to ask me to rat cat out people, I would do it in a heartbeat.
I am being facetious here.

There are situations where lying is the moral thing to do.

or if there's a reason, etc. Or maybe because I just don't feel like explaining the full story so I just bend the truth a little, which I don't really class as lying as such. When you get to know me personally I use less white lies if at all. But when just posting on a forum where I make several posts a day sometimes my current circumstances can fluctuate depending on how I'm feeling at the time and the context given in a conversation or a thread.

Context is important.
I have observed that those on the spectrum often have difficulty with identifying context.
I used to be one of them.
At times, I still am.
I suspect it has something to do with the lack of inherent ToM.

A bit like if a person who lives in Scotland may say he's British in some contexts but not in others. But it isn't a big lie that is hurting anyone, the only time it can be a big deal is if you lie about your ethnicity on an application form or something, if that sort of information is essential.

NTs are usually better at understanding the underlying meaning in a conversation, something many on the spectrum have difficulty with due to their focus on detail.
That can be a stumbling block for me also, exacerbating my ADHD problem, which sets me off on another direction, while losing track of the core content of the conversation.

 

[Jonn]

Yes, I'm certainly not a black and white literal thinker, although sometimes I may come across like that.

You are definitely on the fringe of the autistic bell curve, in some ways, IMO.
That doesn't make you a liar.

But calling each other childish is just crap. Can't adults have emotions? Can't adults stand up for ourselves? Can't adults make mistakes sometimes?

I believe they can, but I need to research that before giving a definitive answer.

 

[Misty Avich]

I think being British can also cause many Americans here to misinterpret my posts. Us Brits use a lot of dry humour that we assume others will get. Not only that, but we also use a lot of words like "and all that", "or something", "you know", etc. Usually those words added at the end of explanations mean a thousand words that we just "get".

 

[Misty Avich]

NTs are usually better at understanding the underlying meaning in a conversation, something many on the spectrum have difficulty with due to their focus on detail.
That can be a stumbling block for me also, exacerbating my ADHD problem, which sets me off on another direction, while losing track of the core content of the conversation.

Usually. Not always.

 

[Jonn]

Also it's odd how Aspies on forums like this often talk about NTs being the liars that just lie all the time, but if an Aspie lies we're suddenly bad people.

Not referring to Jonn by the way, just speaking in general.

Just as well.
Tread carefully.
You have been warned.

 

[Misty Avich]

Just as well.
Tread carefully.
You have been warned.

You know me like the back of your hand, just like I know you like the back of my hand.

 

[FoxLovinPat]

NeoNatal brought up the insightful observation, that not all ppl on the autistic spectrum are black & white, literal thinkers.
Both he, and I, seem to be on the "grey scale", here.

Dunno where I sit in that regard then seeing as I used to think more in black and white terms but have since unlearned that through research and observation.

Also it very much seems that black and white thinking isn't limited to just people on the spectrum. I mean just look at the world around us, how polarized things have become, how many people live by the "us vs them" mentality.

I could've fallen into that trap myself but I didn't, because I chose the route of research, of trying (emphasis on trying because sometimes there's just no logic behind some beliefs) my best to understand both sides. I guess I can partly thank an old English teacher or mine for that, I can't remember which grade year that was though but it was part of us learning how debating works.. though I guess that statement was leveled at me in particular because I complained about being auto assigned to the side of the argument that I wasn't on, as our class did a debate for learning purposes. I might've hated it at the time but looking back it was a valuable lesson, and I'm glad she taught me that.

 

[Dagan]

I really only have one set rule that I live by concerning those that lie. If you want to lie "to" me...go for it...I will always find out...I just have that knack. Now, if you want to lie "about" me...meaning that you are lying to others about what I think, say, do, etc....well, that's your @$$. I'm going to ruin you for doing such nonsense and attacking my character. Justice will be served. It's because I don't lie, I hate lies and I definitely have strong dislike for anyone or anything that takes advantage of others. It's because I've been victim to narcissists and how horrible (to incredible lengths) they can be. Never have or ever will I allow myself to be like such people, nor will I ever allow anyone to lie about me and make me out to even look like such people.

It took over two years to get past the last narcissist that was in my life. I have lesser time left on this marble, so I refuse to let it go to waste or ever be attacked and affect me again.

 

[Misty Avich]

While I don't have any problems with certain lying, if people try to scar my reputation by lying about me or failing to not listen to me when I'm trying to reason with them, I find it hard to stop digging until I get closure or justice (depending on the situation). Some people online make fun of me for this and just insult me further, which then just rises my frustration even more until I decide the time is right for me to insult them back.

But I know I need to learn that two wrongs don't make a right. I don't really believe in all this tit for tat stuff, but I just can't back down once someone has pushed my buttons.

I think it's down to dealing with bullies in the past, not just in adolescence but in recent years too. In fact I'm scarred for life from it all and I don't take crap from anyone any more. When I was in high school I'd just allow myself to be bullied and just dealt with it by ignoring them. But really while I was ignoring them I actually had anger bubbling up inside that I sort of suppressed. Then my hurt turned into RSD, and I've been struggling with RSD ever since.

As an ADHDer, yes, sometimes I find myself lying - but not big terrible lies. I don't "lie my way through life" or "tell fake stories for the fun of it". What I mean is I'm not brutally honest like Aspies are supposed to be. If I feel a lie is best then I do it. White lies, I mean. People, including myself, hate brutal honesty. I hate it, in most contexts anyway. It's why I couldn't be a supervisor or a boss or anything in authority like that, because I'd always be too afraid to be too honest with people. If they asked if they were a good employee or something and they actually weren't, I'd probably just go "yeah, you are." Just to make them feel better I guess, especially if I like them as a person.

 

[Misty Avich]

Unfortunately it feels like it's a crime for an Aspie to lie.

Oh my days a person on the spectrum told a lie, Aspies aren't supposed to lie, that Aspie must be named and shamed for all eternity!

I just wish I were an NT then I'd get away with not being a saint. Excuse me for not being perfect.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I really do not care about others lying, however seeking the truth is more important, why I like real life puzzles or mazes. My threads involve this. Covid, physics, even a thread in the religious section. Lying for many is life's lubricant, which I get, so no point getting anal about it. After all deception is lying all creatures use this to survive.

 

[RemyZee]

On average people tell 1 to 2 lies per day, I just read. I have a bit of an obsession in that in social situations I am constantly monitoring myself to see whether I am accidentally saying something that isn't accurate or true, then if by accident I misrepresent something just in the way I'm expressing myself. I have a hard time with lies except when they are required to keep from hurting someone. As someone said there can be a morality to it, but from the way people who are supposed to be leaders fling lies around as though it doesn't matter it is very confusing.

 

[Jeff T]

Then there's the 'social' lie.

"Does this dress make me look fat?"