The overlap of ADHD and ASD and controversy surrounding it. Can we talk about it?

[Neri]

https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/decoding-overlap-autism-adhd/I would like some opinions, because being invalidated for having both, after being diagnosed with both, hurts. I'm aware that, for some, this conflicts with what they've been, previously, told. But this IS the latest, scientific consensus,( with, I'm sure, some exceptions) due to new evidence (since 2013, I'm told). So can we discuss it?
It's not fun, having the daily struggles of these two conditions, so the last thing one wants to be told is "You're wrong. That's not a thing".

 

[Misty Avich]

With me my ADHD is more dominant than ASD, as I lack a lot of ASD symptoms but have like 9 out of 10 ADHD symptoms.

But then again, if we all stopped associating every trait of every neurological disorder/mental health condition in the world then maybe it would be easier to separate the two. But now that the autism spectrum is becoming broader than the universe even though autism still seems to be a mystery with scientists coming up with stupid conspiracies about the cause of autism every month (such as eating cabbage causes autism or something stupid like that), it's becoming more and more difficult to distinguish between autism and all the other existing neurological disorders.

I think only people who were late talkers and exhibit other obvious autism symptoms should be diagnosed with autism, otherwise everyone who had no speech delays should be diagnosed with something else, before autism becomes...another word for "human". No wonder they say "everyone's a little autistic".

Or, now that there are distinct facial features in autistic people (Google it and all results will confirm it) you could just look at an ADHDer's facial features and go "well they don't have the autistic facial features so it must just be ADHD". I don't have any of those facial features so maybe I'm not on the spectrum after all.

Or, being so nearly every parent on the spectrum seem to have more than one child on the spectrum, maybe check if a person's parent(s) are on the spectrum and if they nor their other close relatives don't seem on the spectrum then that could also be used as some evidence that the person might just have ADHD and not autism.

Just a thought.

 

[jsilver256]

I technically have ADD-inattentive type. But that was because I flunked the computerized test by writing down the long and short pulses to try and figure out if it was a pattern.

 

[Misty Avich]

I think ADHD should just be classed as a type of autism spectrum disorder, if it's that similar. At least then I can be more precise when explaining I have an ASD. I could then say "I have ADHD, which is on the autism spectrum but I'm not exactly autistic". It would just suit my identity much easier.

 

[jsilver256]

But then again, if we all stopped associating every trait of every neurological disorder/mental health condition in the world then maybe it would be easier to separate the two. But now that the autism spectrum is becoming broader than the universe even though autism still seems to be a mystery with scientists coming up with stupid conspiracies about the cause of autism every month (such as eating cabbage causes autism or something stupid like that), it's becoming more and more difficult to distinguish between autism and all the other existing neurological disorders.

We've been through this before, but I think for a lot of us who have more "typical" manifestations, it feels like a hard line. There is a substantial emotional and sensory dysregulation component to autism that is possibly not apparent unless you are experiencing it 24/7. Outside looking in, the constellation of possible symptoms might be extremely broad as to encompass ADHD. But it is not ADHD any more than clogged earwax is deafness.

My pastor is pure ADHD, severe enough that he attended special ed. Possibly the biggest difference is that he does not have issues with sensory overload, emotional detachment, and doesn't obsess over special interest (although he can hyperfocus at times). Rather, he loves people and craves novelty.

 

[MNAus]

https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/decoding-overlap-autism-adhd/I would like some opinions, because being invalidated for having both, after being diagnosed with both, hurts. I'm aware that, for some, this conflicts with what they've been, previously, told. But this IS the latest, scientific consensus,( with, I'm sure, some exceptions) due to new evidence (since 2013, I'm told). So can we discuss it?
It's not fun, having the daily struggles of these two conditions, so the last thing one wants to be told is "You're wrong. That's not a thing".

TBH I've not encountered too much of that response fortunately. Generally people fall into three camps: no real idea about either and find it hard to believe me as they assume it's rain man or that sweaty boy in class who never sat still; the "Oh yeah I have ADHD sometimes" crowd; and professionals who understand or at least admit they aren't qualified to know.

What I read a LOT of that doesn't really match my experience is that people experience them as separate conditions that "take turns" with a "today the ADHD is in charge, yesterday it was the autism". I don't experience things that way at all. They are both there the whole time. The environment (and other things) might mean I experience one more than another, but they're both there the whole time. At first glance you could say they are in conflict, but it doesn't feel that way to me, because they trigger emotions that coexist. So at no point do I feel like I'm tossing up which to address. Hard to explain.

Example the need for routine "vs" the drive for novelty/impulsivity. I don't experience that as a rational thing. It's not like I sit there and think "Hmmm, I'd like the same things, but at the same time I'd also like something completely different". The way I experience it is through emotional response, that is fear and restlessness, which both lead to anxiety. To me it doesn't feel like an either/or. They are both there the whole time. To some extent I am always compelled to ruminating on the past and trying to plan the future to avoid negative outcomes. And I am always feeling this discomfort that I should be seeking out something else, even when I'm doing something else. Neither can be resolved because there is no external state possible that will turn off that tendency in my brain, both are there the whole time. If it were the outside world doing this to me, it would be more either/or. But it's not the outside world causing this, it's not a response to the world, because they are both driven by my brain, so they are both there, all the time, and that's not a paradox at all.

 

[Misty Avich]

ADHD is a disorder, not an extroverted personality trait. The annoying, loud, popular kid in the classroom is more likely to be neurotypical, just an extroverted neurotypical who always has to be saying something to one of his friends while the teacher is talking, but always seems to know how to do his work and complete other projects on time, and participates well in class discussions and stays on track. We've probably all had two or three kids like that at some point in our class. I wouldn't class kids like that as ADHD.

Whether a kid with ADHD is loud or quiet, there will be something he'll struggle in, like fitting in with his peers or catching up with his work or feeling anxious or stressed about next week's class topic because it sounds confusing and difficult and requires attention. He may look at his extroverted NT classmate and think, "how does he manage to talk so much in class without annoying his friends? How does he manage to not struggle with completing his work even though he always seems to be talking or messing about? He keeps the teacher on her toes but still doesn't need the same support I need. Why do I struggle? Why do I get rejected in the playground? Why can't I seem to learn the timestables as quick as the rest of the class even though I'm rather intelligent? Why does everyone seem to know how to complete the task that is set by the teacher yet I have no idea what she said we had to do? Why can't I pay attention no matter how hard I try? Why do I keep worrying about the math quiz that's coming up next week? It's stressing me out so much that it's making it even harder to concentrate on my current work. Why do I keep making careless mistakes? Not seeing objects that are right in front of me and getting laughed at by my classmates, being called "thick" or "stupid" when I'm actually not? Just why do I feel intellectually challenged even though I'm not?"
The extroverted NT kid probably had none of those thoughts.

 

[Neri]

TBH I've not encountered too much of that response fortunately. Generally people fall into three camps: no real idea about either and find it hard to believe me as they assume it's rain man or that sweaty boy in class who never sat still; the "Oh yeah I have ADHD sometimes" crowd; and professionals who understand or at least admit they aren't qualified to know.

What I read a LOT of that doesn't really match my experience is that people experience them as separate conditions that "take turns" with a "today the ADHD is in charge, yesterday it was the autism". I don't experience things that way at all. They are both there the whole time. The environment (and other things) might mean I experience one more than another, but they're both there the whole time. At first glance you could say they are in conflict, but it doesn't feel that way to me, because they trigger emotions that coexist. So at no point do I feel like I'm tossing up which to address. Hard to explain.

Example the need for routine "vs" the drive for novelty/impulsivity. I don't experience that as a rational thing. It's not like I sit there and think "Hmmm, I'd like the same things, but at the same time I'd also like something completely different". The way I experience it is through emotional response, that is fear and restlessness, which both lead to anxiety. To me it doesn't feel like an either/or. They are both there the whole time. To some extent I am always compelled to ruminating on the past and trying to plan the future to avoid negative outcomes. And I am always feeling this discomfort that I should be seeking out something else, even when I'm doing something else. Neither can be resolved because there is no external state possible that will turn off that tendency in my brain, both are there the whole time. If it were the outside world doing this to me, it would be more either/or. But it's not the outside world causing this, it's not a response to the world, because they are both driven by my brain, so they are both there, all the time, and that's not a paradox at all.

Mine doesn't take turns, either.

I am much happier after the amount of Buddhistic kind of "mindfulness" practice I've had to do, though. Lots of singing (you can't be in your head while singing), breathwork, cognitive behavioral practices, various artistic therapeutic practices, physical exercise and to be honest, getting support, "body doubling" and having to stop "white knuckling" the way I spent the first two thirds of my life doing.
I've also found a few plant based medicines highly effective, as well.
I do need to really take notice to not overstimulate myself and to know my limits and what is going to tip me over the edge .
I'm practising accepting my limitations while continuing to expand and grow that expansion of my "window of tolerance" as they say.
Being a half century isn't half bad as the wisdom through experience kicks in .

 

[Suzanne]

I can assure you, you probably have ADHD. It is just impossible to have both, since they contradict each other in many areas and I know this, because a friend's daughter and a niece, both have ADHD and although we could relate ie both on the neurodiverse spectrum, there are things that show clearly the differences.

A few year's back, there was never an issue with ASD and ADHD being together.

Again, it is the fault of the mental health team, since they have no idea either.

 

[Neri]

I can assure you, you probably have ADHD. It is just impossible to have both, since they contradict each other in many areas and I know this, because a friend's daughter and a niece, both have ADHD and although we could relate ie both on the neurodiverse spectrum, there are things that show clearly the differences.

A few year's back, there was never an issue with ASD and ADHD being together.

Again, it is the fault of the mental health team, since they have no idea either.

This is just blatantly not true. Which is why I made the thread.

 

[Outdated]

Being a half century isn't half bad as the wisdom through experience kicks in .

Terry Pratchet: "Experience is something you don't get until just after you really needed it."

 

[Neri]

I can assure you, you probably have ADHD. It is just impossible to have both, since they contradict each other in many areas and I know this, because a friend's daughter and a niece, both have ADHD and although we could relate ie both on the neurodiverse spectrum, there are things that show clearly the differences.

A few year's back, there was never an issue with ASD and ADHD being together.

Again, it is the fault of the mental health team, since they have no idea either.

I suggest you read this breakdown as you are quite behind in the last 15-20 years of research as well as being quite offensively dismissive of a lot of us on this website
https://www.qanc.com.au/adhd-asd

 

[Outdated]

Just a curious question for you @Neri

I don't know a lot about ADHD, what I do know is only from talking to people in this forum, but since I've been talking to people I've noticed a lot of little things in the world around me.

The way John Farnham constantly plays with his microphone stand during every performance - is that an attention deficit type of stim? Keeping his hands busy to allow himself to stay focused.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

so the last thing one wants to be told is "You're wrong. That's not a thing".

I'm sorry that you've been told this. I've never heard it before. But I've never mentioned the possibility of having ADHD, as well as being autistic.

I don't know what my neurotype in exact detail is. I'm sure about being autistic, and a lot of ADHD characteristics fit as well, but I don't see the point of pursuing yet another diagnosis. I probably wouldn't fulfill enough ADHD criteria, and that's okay. I have to figure out how to navigate around my struggles in my daily life, and both advice for autistics as well as advice for ADHDers help me.

An example of how I struggle with both disorders to some extent is my need for routine. Routine helps to stabilize me, it greatly improves my mood and my productivity, and I am less anxious when I follow a routine. That routine doesn't have to be very detailed, but involves for example in the morning to get up in peace, have breakfast, brush teeth, do hair, get dressed, sit down and make a to-do list and a plan for the day. Ideally, up to that point I don't have to talk to anyone (or only very little). If I can't do that morning routine in peace, then I already start my day anxious, in a worse mood and am more prone to sensory overstimulation for the entire day.

BUT routines other than this one quickly bore me, and I often can't find the motivation to actually follow it. If I make a day plan, then that's okay. But if I make a week plan, then I will divert from that plan after a day or two because I start getting bored and because I get spontaneous ideas about what to do. And then I make another week plan which I then don't follow. But if I make no plan at all, then I lose my focus completely and don't get anything done at all. Creating these plans and routines both is a lot of fun and enjoyment for me and gives me stability and a sense of control, but I struggle to follow them. As soon as the schedule is done, nice and detailed, my brain shouts "booooring, let's do THIS instead", and my autistic brain wants to crumble and cry.

 

[Shamar]

https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/decoding-overlap-autism-adhd/I would like some opinions, because being invalidated for having both, after being diagnosed with both, hurts. I'm aware that, for some, this conflicts with what they've been, previously, told. But this IS the latest, scientific consensus,( with, I'm sure, some exceptions) due to new evidence (since 2013, I'm told). So can we discuss it?
It's not fun, having the daily struggles of these two conditions, so the last thing one wants to be told is "You're wrong. That's not a thing".

Judging from responses around here, lots of us have ADHD. I was officially diagnosed with AD(no H)D ten years before my autism diagnosis. My basic reaction to research indicating autism and ADHD may overlap is "Well DUUH!." They are different enough that they should not be conflated together. It is bad enough having autism reduced to three simple levels, despite the wide variety of manifestations. I have written before that I am simultaneously ASD1 and ASD3. I hate to think what adding ADHD into the mix would do.

My own AD(no H)D and autism are frequently in conflict and vying for control. I am an explorer, but I like my exploration to be routine, surprises throw me off. I will work on something until it becomes routine, then I lose interest, yet I can be content doing the same thing over and over. I just can't see that as being two different manifestations of the same condition, yet the common overlap suggests some sort of commonality.

I suspect the idea will be researched and discussed, and conclusions drawn, without ever asking the people actually affected. As per usual.

 

[Aspychata]

I value @Suzanne's input, l don't believe she was intentionally being offensively dismissive. She has been at this site way before l even joined. And l also appreciate @Neri , your input, opening up new doors by way of bringing new info for us to examine and determine where we fit in. (Or often where we don't fit in, l guess it could go either way).

 

[Roisin]

https://www.thetransmitter.org/spectrum/decoding-overlap-autism-adhd/I would like some opinions, because being invalidated for having both, after being diagnosed with both, hurts. I'm aware that, for some, this conflicts with what they've been, previously, told. But this IS the latest, scientific consensus,( with, I'm sure, some exceptions) due to new evidence (since 2013, I'm told). So can we discuss it?
It's not fun, having the daily struggles of these two conditions, so the last thing one wants to be told is "You're wrong. That's not a thing".

The ICD 11 recognises that ASD & ADHD can and do co-occur

DSM-5 has a section on differential diagnosis which implies that it is possible that ASD could be confused with other diagnoses, such as selective mutism or ADHD. ICD-11 has taken a different approach, recognizing that these conditions can (and frequently do) co-occur. Hence, in ICD-11 they are included in a section that uses the term 'Boundaries with Other Disorders and Conditions’. The guidelines in ICD-11 provide greater detail than DSM-5 about the distinction between conditions that may present with an autism-like phenotype.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9881114/
From the day I read about ADD inattentive I recognised it in myself, and many of my experiences made sense.
The constant negotiation with my brain is becoming more of a barrier with age. The diagnosis route available to me is to wait for a waiting list to reopen, wait some more and then pay an extortionate sum. Which I may or may not have at that point. My hope is that (if its suitable) with medication I can return to studies.
Otherwise I'm gonna have to alter my hopes for the future.

Autism came into my awareness when ADD and CPTSD could not explain the social struggles I became aware of in my late 20s/early 30s.
They had always been there, but before then I put the struggles down to other reasons.
From my experience both are part of my reality.

 

[Roisin]

...BUT routines other than this one quickly bore me, and I often can't find the motivation to actually follow it. If I make a day plan, then that's okay. But if I make a week plan, then I will divert from that plan after a day or two because I start getting bored and because I get spontaneous ideas about what to do. And then I make another week plan which I then don't follow. But if I make no plan at all, then I lose my focus completely and don't get anything done at all. Creating these plans and routines both is a lot of fun and enjoyment for me and gives me stability and a sense of control, but I struggle to follow them. As soon as the schedule is done, nice and detailed, my brain shouts "booooring, let's do THIS instead", and my autistic brain wants to crumble and cry.

Oh wow I can relate to this and it gave me a giggle at myself (not your words but how I seen myself in my minds-eye having a similar experience). Thank you

 

[Aspychata]

I also become bored very easily, so routine is crucial for me. Sometimes l think l live just for routine, the l routinely assign novel things to do, to get me out of the routine. So l may check out a salsa class, try a new restaurant, find the hot stone massage to get out of routine. Today, l called and found a great airplane fare to Singapore, called my partner, and they were down for it, so that was a break away from the norm of housework, and general blahs.

 

[Misty Avich]

I don't care much for routine, although I do have a comfort zone but I don't think it's the same thing. My comfort zone (which is my home) is my safe place, as I suffer with anxiety and agoraphobia.