The overlap of ADHD and ASD and controversy surrounding it. Can we talk about it?

[AuAL]

I suspect the idea will be researched and discussed, and conclusions drawn, without ever asking the people actually affected. As per usual.

“Nothing about us without us!”

 

[Magna]

A current PhD grad student specializing in ASD who I know said that at least one researcher in the mental health field has posited that ASD and ADHD are the same thing (with variations being possible on an individual basis).

 

[UFO]

When I began to read a lot of random stuff from autism, I encountered one particularly interesting concept:

Both ASDs and ADHDs can hyperfocus in one subject for a long time. Neurotypicals can hyperfocus too (sometimes, in theory), but less intense flow-state is more likely.

When ASDs and ADHDs hyperfocus, they just do it differently: As I recall, ADHDs hyperfocus on things that produce immediate and continuous enjoyment.

I interpret this that ASDs can do hyperfocus with more long term targets (in addition to immediate pleasure): For example, I really hate banging my head to wall when trying to make some piece of crap software to work, but I do work with it intensively forgetting to sleep, eat, drink or visit bathroom (sometimes with embarrassing results, I admit) until I am finished with it which will finally release a big surge of satisfaction.

It would make sense to me that ASD and ADHD are enough similar conditions thus allowing same common ability (hyperfocus) and sharing same wiring, and perhaps same root causes for that wiring, inside the brain, but just having different position in "motivation to maintain attention towards a topic" and "preference to do familiar vs satisfying things" -scales.

 

[All-Rounder]

I've been giving it some thought, this idea that it's boredom. For me that's not the right word. For me boredom is "wow, this is a task that I get no pleasure from, I wish I could do something else." And that doesn't sum it up, for me. It took me a while to go talk to the doc about ADHD, because it wasn't that something was boring, per se. So when I heard people say they get bored of things and always want to try something new, that didn't fit at all. I don't want to try new things, I like my routine. I can try stuff, sure, but against a background of structure. But I don't feel compelled to try new things. This threw me off for such a long time.

How to explain?

It doesn't matter if it's something one might find dull, or something I enjoy. I can't stick to it. I can't write a list, because halfway through my mind will wander. I can't have a hobby, because as soon as I start it I wonder what's happening next. The times in my life I should have been able to sit back and smell the flowers, my mind wasn't there, it was busy somewhere, doing goodness knows what. I don't get bored of things, they just cease to be of any relevance or focus. They are just gone, no longer thought about. The Amazon box I cut open but don't unpack isn't because I get bored of it. It's just gone, no longer focused on. The objects I put down as I walk through the house, that piece of work I had to hand in, that form half filled, that DIY project half done. I don't get bored of them, I just have an inability to focus, to stick to it, to remain on task. Because my head is like a box of chattering toddlers. It's busy the whole time. There's a 5 second song snippet on repeat in my head 24x7. So I have this non stop feeling of responding to everything, which makes it difficult to concentrate. A mental hyperactivity.

And it's perfectly possible for that to co-exist with feeling like I have zero instincts socially; with the feeling that sensations come in at 150db; with wanting to have a plan, and order, so negative experiences stay well, well away (because they come in at 180db).

In a simplistic world where autism is liking order, and ADHD is liking spontaneity, the two are in conflict. But in my brain, they both exist, both sensations and the emotions they provoke, at precisely the same time.

I didn't understand why people get bored all the time, I didn't link it to Autism. I practically could sit down and do nothing or little for hours, or a lifetime.

 

[Misty Avich]

When I began to read a lot of random stuff from autism, I encountered one particularly interesting concept:

Both ASDs and ADHDs can hyperfocus in one subject for a long time. Neurotypicals can hyperfocus too (sometimes, in theory), but less intense flow-state is more likely.

When ASDs and ADHDs hyperfocus, they just do it differently: As I recall, ADHDs hyperfocus on things that produce immediate and continuous enjoyment.

I interpret this that ASDs can do hyperfocus with more long term targets (in addition to immediate pleasure): For example, I really hate banging my head to wall when trying to make some piece of s**t software to work, but I do work with it intensively forgetting to sleep, eat, drink or visit bathroom (sometimes with embarrassing results, I admit) until I am finished with it which will finally release a big surge of satisfaction.

I've never been able to hyperfocus to that extent. I give up if something's really that frustrating, or ask for help. And I've heard a many autistics say they've hyperfocused so much that they ended up forgetting to go to the bathroom. I have never done that before, even as a child.

 

[Suzanne]

This is just blatantly not true. Which is why I made the thread.

We shall have to agree to disagree then, because I hate arguing.

 

[DrBadStrings]

I can assure you, you probably have ADHD. It is just impossible to have both, since they contradict each other in many areas and I know this, because a friend's daughter and a niece, both have ADHD and although we could relate ie both on the neurodiverse spectrum, there are things that show clearly the differences.

A few year's back, there was never an issue with ASD and ADHD being together.

Again, it is the fault of the mental health team, since they have no idea either.

That is categorically 100% false. You can absolutely have both Autism and ADHD.

 

[Misty Avich]

I have friends who were diagnosed with just autism and you could see they're not ADHD. They both said they were delayed in speech and also they weren't hyperactive as children (or as adults). Also they're not as impulsive as me (apart from during a meltdown maybe), and their need for routine and sameness in their lives is essential to them.

 

[FilterFreq]

Interestingly, both are measured by symptoms and the symptoms of both have quite a bit of overlap, so it's really not uncommon (actually, it's very common apparently) to have both.

Until they have specific genetic testing (which, they do have a decent amount of correlated genes and genetic clues, but nothing that paints an absolute picture of ADHD or ASD), plenty of people are going to continue to get diagnosed with both due to the overlap. They also change definitions as time goes on, so it's interesting to see how it gets classified.

My symptoms are a pretty direct zigzag between the two, so I also believe it's more than possible to have both.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, they created some kind of 'spectrum of neurodiversity' that just leads from one end to the other in order to describe our specific neurodiverse symptoms. Or, as in my case, maybe it zigzags around a few times like a tangled knot, or a snake eating its tail

 

[Misty Avich]

I think each symptom a person with ASD or ADHD has needs to be studied separately, as both can have a same symptom but for different reasons. For example, social awkwardness for autistic people is caused by not understanding social cues, while social awkwardness for ADHD people is caused by inattentiveness and impulsivity.
It's like everything. I guess ADHD and autism have the equivalent similarities and differences as autism and social anxiety have, or autism and general anxiety disorder. I definitely have both types of anxiety and I tick nearly all the boxes of both.
I mean, you can have autism without additional anxiety disorder but I believe all autistic people suffer with anxiety, for example sensory overload can cause anxiety. For me, anxiety is a disorder, not a symptom. I don't really get sensory overload like how other autistics describe it, and it isn't what causes me to get anxiety. My anxiety is the same sort as an NT with an anxiety disorder would get.

 

[FayetheAspie]

I like having routines like my daily tea time and my daily coffee time. I also like to try new things such as a food I never had before or going to a zoo or aquarium that I never saw before.

 

[Misty Avich]

Don't most people like to have a daily routine though? A lot of people I know stick to a ritual each morning when they get up for work, such as shower, then eat breakfast, then have tea, then get dressed, then have coffee, all in that same order. I find it hard to do that. I get up and do all the essential things in a different order each day. Like sometimes I change out of my clothes in the living-room and leave them on the sofa, and in the morning I might either eat lunch naked or get dressed first. My husband often laughs and says "you have no routine, do you?" or, "you're so unorganised!" But I quite like it like this. I hate sameness.

It was the same when I was a kid, although my mother was organised so she always made sure I was. But I'm not really sure where the difference is between normal kid disorganisation and ADHD kid disorganisation. I think it's normal for kids to be disorganised, which is why it's illegal to leave a kid to fend for themselves.

 

[FoxLovinPat]

I'm technically diagnosed with both autism and ADHD, as I got an Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis when I was young and later got diagnosed with ADHD as a teen.. however I am uncertain if the ADHD diagnosis is valid or not as I'm uncertain if the doctors that diagnosed me with it properly accounted for my Asperger's/Autism. This is due to me highly suspecting that my father was a unreliable conveyer of whatever input the doctors asked him for in order to aid in my diagnosis, because it is a known fact that my father has been operating off of outdated and incorrect information regarding Asperger's/Autism. I find it highly likely that all the info the doctors got from my father when it came to my Asperger's diagnosis was savant related stuff, like him telling them that I was a bright kid that had a smart Asperger's brain and Asperger's hyper focus so therefore my school struggles couldn't be because of my Asperger's.. or something similar to that anyways. I will say that this is all just speculation on my part.. except for the part about my father operating off of outdated Asperger's/Autism information, specifically the "Aspie savant" stuff, and the good old "Refrigerator Mother" theory.

Another reason I suspect the ADHD diagnosis wasn't accurate is because the medication I was prescribed for it didn't seem to help me all that much, as I was still struggling in school even with meds that were supposed to help me with focus. Actually while typing out this response I seemingly had a memory unlocked of my father telling me that "Now that you have medicine to help you focus in school, you shouldn't have any troubles now." and when I was still having troubles he just went right back to his talk of me just being lazy because, "That medicine should be helping you better focus on your studies so it can't be that!".
Essentially what I'm trying to convey here is that since the medicine didn't seem to help much that would seem to suggest that what it was meant to treat was not the issue I was having.
Also sadly getting diagnosed with ADHD didn't change my father's views or expectations of me, as he still expected high marks from me in school and scolded me for not living up to them, stating that "You should have no excuse to not be getting straight As now!"

I suppose it's possible that the ADHD diagnosis was correct and I just wasn't prescribed the right medicine for it and didn't receive any additional support that I might've required in addition to the medication. The frustrating thing is that it wasn't just my father, but my school as well.. their opinions and expectations of me didn't really change after the diagnosis either as I was still considered a delinquent that didn't turn in assignments on time or completed and didn't study for tests and no additional help was given to me. Though I have wondered in recent years of my school really didn't offer additional help at all, or if it they did but my father denied me any additional help they offered.. well except for the special privileges I was given, such as being able to use a calculator for math class in instances where the rest of the class couldn't and being able to leave certain classes a little early and being completely excused to use the restroom whenever I needed to, even in the middle of class.

In conclusion I guess the only way I'd be able to know is the ADHD diagnosis I got was indeed correct or not would be to get reevaluated for it, as I'm an adult now and can vouch for myself and don't need to rely on my uninformed father anymore.

Edit: I guess I'm a bit off topic here, huh?
Sorry about that

 

[FayetheAspie]

As for my ADHD symptoms, I had trouble sitting still in school often shifting in my seat or even popping up on my knees in the seat for awhile. It did not seem to affect my learning though. I was also given exercise time between classes. I think that maybe allowing movement helped my grades to not be negatively affected. I also speak really fast when I am excited.

 

[Misty Avich]

Due to being statemented and monitored closely in the classroom because of being an uncooperative brat during my first week of school, I kind of forced myself to behave in the classroom, probably a bit too much. I became very scared of being told off by the teacher, so I forced myself to sit still. But while I was sitting still looking very good, my mind was miles away and I would daydream my whole way through class and not pay attention to what the teacher was saying. I really masked in the classroom, like a lot. So recess was a relief, as it was a time where I could be myself (climbing on the playground equipment, running around with my friends, being loud and hyperactive). Then as soon as the bell rang for class to begin again I had to make sure I had my (metaphorical) mask on to survive class. I released my mask when I was taken to another room with a small group of other children for math classes, as children who had difficulty with math were often taught separately from the rest of the class. The teacher who taught us math was kind and nurturing, and I felt more comfortable to be myself, and I was often loud and show-offy and wouldn't sit still. I'd talk to the other kids and they found me funny. They probably wondered why the hell I'd go all quiet and good when we rejoined the rest of the class.

 

[Shamar]

Due to being statemented and monitored closely in the classroom because of being an uncooperative brat during my first week of school, I kind of forced myself to behave in the classroom, probably a bit too much. I became very scared of being told off by the teacher, so I forced myself to sit still. But while I was sitting still looking very good, my mind was miles away and I would daydream my whole way through class and not pay attention to what the teacher was saying. I really masked in the classroom, like a lot. So recess was a relief, as it was a time where I could be myself (climbing on the playground equipment, running around with my friends, being loud and hyperactive). Then as soon as the bell rang for class to begin again I had to make sure I had my (metaphorical) mask on to survive class. I released my mask when I was taken to another room with a small group of other children for math classes, as children who had difficulty with math were often taught separately from the rest of the class. The teacher who taught us math was kind and nurturing, and I felt more comfortable to be myself, and I was often loud and show-offy and wouldn't sit still. I'd talk to the other kids and they found me funny. They probably wondered why the hell I'd go all quiet and good when we rejoined the rest of the class.

In elementary school, I don't remember I don't remember spending a lot of time in class. I DO remember spending a great deal of time sitting in a classroom and being somewhere else.

 

[RemyZee]

I used to think of add/adhd/asd as opposite ends of the spectrum, and on the outside I can look inattentive. But really I am just resting in an obsession so everything else is secondary and I always forget where I have put my clothing wheni get like that.. It's not because of being inattentive but because of being so focused on what I'm interested in.

 

[FayetheAspie]

Judging from responses around here, lots of us have ADHD. I was officially diagnosed with AD(no H)D ten years before my autism diagnosis. My basic reaction to research indicating autism and ADHD may overlap is "Well DUUH!." They are different enough that they should not be conflated together. It is bad enough having autism reduced to three simple levels, despite the wide variety of manifestations. I have written before that I am simultaneously ASD1 and ASD3. I hate to think what adding ADHD into the mix would do.

My own AD(no H)D and autism are frequently in conflict and vying for control. I am an explorer, but I like my exploration to be routine, surprises throw me off. I will work on something until it becomes routine, then I lose interest, yet I can be content doing the same thing over and over. I just can't see that as being two different manifestations of the same condition, yet the common overlap suggests some sort of commonality.

I suspect the idea will be researched and discussed, and conclusions drawn, without ever asking the people actually affected. As per usual.

Could you explain what you mean by being both level 1 and level 3 ? I have both ASD (level was not specified )and ADHD (hyperactive symptoms included).

 

[Shamar]

Could you explain what you mean by being both level 1 and level 3 ? I have both ASD (level was not specified )and ADHD (hyperactive symptoms included).

Simple. I am considered ASD1, due to my intellect level and ability to live one my own (assuming I can find work). I am, however, socially non functional, even with help (this is why I could almost never get a job). Thus, socially, I can be considered ASD3. Sometimes I say strike an average and call me ASD2. I suppose you can say I have all the ASD bases covered. To make it clear, I refer to myself as AD(no H)D.

 

[FayetheAspie]

I wonder if different aspects of my ASD are at different levels too. When I inquired as to why I was not assigned a level, I was told that she (the psychiatrist) could not tell which level I was. The second sentence in my previous comment was describing myself. My ADHD definitely includes the hyperactive type. I was up on my knees, back down in my seat, repeat all day in class. I loved to spin, climb, jump, ect. I could not hardly keep a pair of jeans without the knees out from spinning on one knee at a time on the living room carpet. Oh, and I can't forget blurting out answers and interrupting. At least half of this, I still do.