The western genre

[Tom]

Have you ever seen the movie "Crazy Horse" that was made in 1996? It was pretty good, though I don't know how accurate it was. You know how Hollywood can embellish.

I am not sure. I watched one recently, I think on Crazy Horse, that I enjoyed from the 90's but can't identify it. 'Son of the Morning Star' from 1991 is my favorite film about Custer.

It's hard to find an entertaining film that also tries to get as close to 100% accuracy simultaneously. Battlefield archeology has been providing a clearer picture in recent years. I don't think any film I've seen yet captures the newest information.

 

[Tom]

That was probably it. It was pretty good. I enjoy almost all westerns (not a big fan of the glitzy singing cowboys, though), but my favorites are the ones based on true events, etc.

I saw a documentary several years ago about a team that did a dig at Little Big Horn. Based on their findings, they ascertained that it did NOT happen as it's always portrayed in the movies; and in fact, the Indians were better equipped and organized than previously thought. I hate to put it so crassly, "Well duh, Custer had it coming."

I just remembered 'Blazing Saddles' !

Yes, a lot of the finds are shell casings and 'drops' (unfired cartridges often dropped in haste). Many Indians had the top of the line repeaters. One Indian firing position had so many used Henry repeater casings the spot is known as 'Henryville' now. Ballistic studies of artifacts so far indicate 134 individual Indian weapons, mostly repeaters and 81 Cavalry weapons. The cavalry rifle moreover was brand new and prone to jams in the breech. Indians reported troopers trying to pry out stuck cartridges with knifes. A pocketknife with the tip broke off is one of the artifacts found.

Here is full story if interested:
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-were-the-weapons-the-deciding-factor.htm

Besides that Custer split up and split up again, and then again his forces. Out of 12 troops in his regiment he only had 5 with him personnally and those he deployed widely as seperate units and they seem to have been overwhelmed by numbers and superior firepower in ones and twos.

trivia:
The only gun I own is a lever action hunting rifle, like the ones carried at the battle. My sons first gun was a kid sized copy of the Henry lever action the Indians carried. The Henry has an incredibly smooth as silk action out of the box. The Henry would later become the prototype for the Winchester Model 73, the so called 'Gun that won the West'.

 

[Rayner]

My ancestors were some of the northern Cheyenne that defeated Custer at the battle of little big horn. Now ain't that something.

I just remembered 'Blazing Saddles' !

Yes, a lot of the finds are shell casings and 'drops' (unfired cartridges often dropped in haste). Many Indians had the top of the line repeaters. One Indian firing position had so many used Henry repeater casings the spot is known as 'Henryville' now. Ballistic studies of artifacts so far indicate 134 individual Indian weapons, mostly repeaters and 81 Cavalry weapons. The cavalry rifle moreover was brand new and prone to jams in the breech. Indians reported troopers trying to pry out stuck cartridges with knifes. A pocketknife with the tip broke off is one of the artifacts found.

Here is full story if interested:
http://www.historynet.com/battle-of-little-bighorn-were-the-weapons-the-deciding-factor.htm

Besides that Custer split up and split up again, and then again his forces. Out of 12 troops in his regiment he only had 5 with him personnally and those he deployed widely as seperate units and they seem to have been overwhelmed by numbers and superior firepower in ones and twos.

trivia:
The only gun I own is a lever action hunting rifle, like the ones carried at the battle. My sons first gun was a kid sized copy of the Henry lever action the Indians carried. The Henry has an incredibly smooth as silk action out of the box. The Henry would later become the prototype for the Winchester Model 73, the so called 'Gun that won the West'.

 

[Tom]

My ancestors were some of the northern Cheyenne that defeated Custer at the battle of little big horn. Now ain't that something.

Indeed, that was some day. It is believed to be the most studied/written about battle in all American History.

 

[Rayner]

I have done some genealogy back when I was in high school(not that high school was that long ago, but man it makes me feel old). I was able to confirm that I am 5/8 northern Cheyenne on my fathers side. Apparently I have quite a few distance great grandfather that were part of the "Crazy Dogs" or "Dog soldiers" as whites called them. From what I was able to dig up I belong to the "Dull knife" klan although I was never able to comfirm 100%.

The coalition was a group of mostly Cheyenne, Lakota and a few other tribes. The coalition I believe was lead by sitting bull, Black kettle,Dull knife, and Morning star.

I believe the Henry rifles fired either a .45 .70 or something close to .30 caliber shell. My .444 fires a relatively short bullet. Marlin introduced the .444 caliber to replace the outdated and somewhat obsolete .45 .70

Ah yes, "Blazing Saddles." A classic that encompasses everything western. To this day I just about die laughing whenever I watch it.

Thanks for the link, as I will definitely check it out. Based on what I've picked up, it seems as though the best and worst of everything happened that day. Custer was doomed from the moment it started; his arrogance and ego exacerbated his unsound tactics. The Indians were better quipped than anticipated, and better organized. If I'm not mistaken, but wasn't Sitting Bull the man that organized and led the coalition of Indians?

I wish I had a Henry rifle. From what I've seen, those things are excellent. Didn't the original Henry rifles fire some sort of short, but large caliber round? You know, the type of round that would separate a man's habits from his desires.



Oh, now that's just bragging. Seriously, that's pretty cool. Have you ever contacted the tribal headquarters to track down the ancestral history? I've been meaning to do that with the Cherokee Nation since my great grandmother (four or five back) was a native from Virginia.



That's for sure, though it would be a toss up between that battle or the Battle of the Alamo. Both are pieces of history that I find fascinating.

 

[Rayner]

I find that somewhat interesting considering how little we actually know about the battle.

Indeed, that was some day. It is believed to be the most studied/written about battle in all American History.

 

[Rayner]

Exactly I'm like the history channel without the commercials.

Well, I've learned some new things today!!! Who needs the History Channel when we have Rayner.

 

[Tom]

I find that somewhat interesting considering how little we actually know about the battle.

Much is known now actually, more then many other battles. A pretty good battle schematic is possible down to the troop level (The Indian side is tougher as they fought mostly in ad hoc groups as they happened to come out of the camp). But there still are many uncertain or debated elements when it comes to the details, the exact sequence and action of small groups and individuals. That is a tall order on any older battlefield.

You have multiple factors contributing to the interest. One is the unknown pieces which always encourages the history buffs and professionals to find the answers. Another is when a whole unit is wiped out and literally has no survivors. No eyewitnesses from one side. We do have considerable eyewitness accounts from Indian sources, a mix of written soon or later after the battle. But that is complicated and conflicting going as are any eyewitness accounts (I find the same from extensive study of Waterloo for example). Eight different warriors claimed to have killed Custer for Instance. But thats pretty good compared to an estimated 200+ who claimed to have been in Custer's command and claimed to survive the battle.

 

[Tom]

I believe the Henry rifles fired either a .45 .70 or something close to .30 caliber shell. My .444 fires a relatively short bullet. Marlin introduced the .444 caliber to replace the outdated and somewhat obsolete .45 .70

I have a Marlin Model 300. The bullet is huge and sounds like a small cannon going off. Flames shoot far out of the barrel.

 

[Tom]

I have done some genealogy back when I was in high school(not that high school was that long ago, but man it makes me feel old). I was able to confirm that I am 5/8 northern Cheyenne on my fathers side. Apparently I have quite a few distance great grandfather that were part of the "Crazy Dogs" or "Dog soldiers" as whites called them. From what I was able to dig up I belong to the "Dull knife" klan although I was never able to comfirm 100%.

The coalition was a group of mostly Cheyenne, Lakota and a few other tribes. The coalition I believe was lead by sitting bull, Black kettle,Dull knife, and Morning star.

I believe Dull Knife and Morning Star refer to the same person, but he was not at The Battle of the Little Bighorn. He joined the coalition afterwards.

Here's the best list of Indian leaders I can find quickly.

Native American leaders and warriors in the battle

• unkpapa (Lakota): Sitting Bull, Four Horns, Crow King, Chief Gall, Black Moon, Rain-in-the-Face, Moving Robe Woman, Spotted Horn Bull, Iron Hawk, One Bull, Bull Head, Chasing Eagle, Little Big Man
• Sihasapa (Blackfoot Lakota): Crawler, Kill Eagle
• Minneconjou (Lakota): Chief Hump, Black Moon, Red Horse, Makes Room, Looks Up, Lame Deer, Dog-with-Horn, Dog Back Bone,White Bull, Feather Earring, Flying By
• Sans Arc (Lakota): Spotted Eagle, Red Bear, Long Road, Cloud Man
• Oglala (Lakota): Crazy Horse, He Dog, Kicking Bear, Flying Hawk, Chief Long Wolf, Black Elk, White Cow Bull, Running Eagle, Black Fox II
• Brule (Lakota): Two Eagles, Hollow Horn Bear, Brave Bird
• Two Kettles (Lakota): Runs-the-Enemy
• Lower Yanktonai (Dakota): Thunder Bear, Medicine Cloud, Iron Bear, Long Tree
• Wahpekute (Dakota): Inkpaduta, Sounds-the-Ground-as-He-Walks, White Eagle, White Tracking Earth
• Black Powder (Sioux Firearms trader): Black Powder, Johann Smidt
• Northern Cheyenne: Two Moons, Wooden Leg, Old Bear, Lame White Man, American Horse, Brave Wolf, Antelope Women, Thunder Bull Big Nose, Yellow Horse, Little Shield, Horse Road, Bob Tail Horse, Yellow Hair, Bear-Walks-on-a-Ridge, Black Hawk,Buffalo Calf Road Woman, Crooked Nose, Noisy Walking
• Arapahoes: Waterman, Sage, Left Hand, Yellow Eagle, Little Bird

I have seen a pretty decent 'Order of Battle' for the tribes and number of warriors but am having trouble locating it.

The Cheyennes occupied the last of 7 lodge circles I believe and one eyewitness named the groups tribal leader (not war leader) as Ice Bear. Sitting Bull was also not a war leader and did not participate in battle directly. He practiced some form of moral/medicine support during the fighting instead.

 

[Rayner]

Interesting. It appears that because there is so many conflicting accounts historian have a difficult time deciphering fact from fiction.

From what I've been told morning star and dull knife are two separate people. I've heard that Sometimes morning star is also refered to morning sun though I don't know this as a fact.

QUOTE="Tom, post: 336608, member: 12460"]Much is known now actually, more then many other battles. A pretty good battle schematic is possible down to the troop level (The Indian side is tougher as they fought mostly in ad hoc groups as they happened to come out of the camp). But there still are many uncertain or debated elements when it comes to the details, the exact sequence and action of small groups and individuals. That is a tall order on any older battlefield.

You have multiple factors contributing to the interest. One is the unknown pieces which always encourages the history buffs and professionals to find the answers. Another is when a whole unit is wiped out and literally has no survivors. No eyewitnesses from one side. We do have considerable eyewitness accounts from Indian sources, a mix of written soon or later after the battle. But that is complicated and conflicting going as are any eyewitness accounts (I find the same from extensive study of Waterloo for example). Eight different warriors claimed to have killed Custer for Instance. But thats pretty good compared to an estimated 200+ who claimed to have been in Custer's command and claimed to survive the battle.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tom]

Interesting. It appears that because there is so many conflicting accounts historian have a difficult time deciphering fact from fiction.

From what I've been told morning star and dull knife are two separate people. I've heard that Sometimes morning star is also refered to morning sun though I don't know this as a fact.

That is what makes it intersesting for researchers. Its a lot like solving a puzzle.

On Dull Knife:

Dull Knife — 1810-1883

"One of the principal chiefs of the Northern Cheyenne, the famous leader was called Morning Star by the Cheyenne, but Dull Knife by the Lakota. He was active in the Cheyenne-Arapaho War in Colorado in 1864-65, the Sioux Wars of the Northern Plains in 1866-67 and joined Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull during the War for the Black Hills in 1876-77. Many of his warriors fought with Crazy Horse at Rosebud and at the battle of the Little Bighorn. [Note it says his warriors fought at the Little Bighorn]
http://www.nrcprograms.org/site/PageServer?pagename=airc_bio_dullknife


"Dull Knife (or Morning Star, as he was called by the Cheyennes) was not at the Little Bighorn. He was one of the few Northern Cheyenne Council Chiefs that had remained close to the White River Agency to show the whites that he wished to remain at peace. Other Chiefs who stayed at the agency were Turkey Leg, Standing Elk, Spotted Elk, Living Bear, and Black Bear.
The most important Cheyenne Chief Little Wolf only arrived shortly after the battle ended.
Most of the other 44 Council Chiefs of the Northern Cheyenne were at the Little Bighorn at the time of the battle. The two Old Man Chiefs Old Bear and Black Moccasin (a/k/a Limber Lance) were regarded as the principal Chiefs. (See Father Peter Powell: People of the Sacred Mountain.)
In some Indian accounts you can find the name Dull Knife. Often he is confused with Lame White Man. I guess the other reason is that Dull Knife's son Bull Hump, often called Dull Knife himself, was in the battle."

http://www.american-tribes.com/Cheyenne/bio/DullKnife.htm